Transsexuals

[Treasure the Questions]

Artybloke,
I am deeply offended that you would call my still in the works conclusions from the Bible "limited and uncontextualised ". I am asking for an appology from you because this is a character attack seeing that you know nothing about me except for what you read in this particular thread.

I'd call it a difference of opinion, not a character attack. He hasn't mentioned your character.

 

[alexeeah]

I think we are all pretty familiar with basic nature of humanity/christianity 101. What about answering ArtyBloke's specific questions? I myself find it rather uncompassionate to blame someone's disability on them as if you were somehow better and that despite the fact that we are all sinful...offer no compassion to help those affected out? Didn't Jesus say it was not the healthy but the sick that needed a doctor? He meant that spiritually as well as physically.

Did I blame the dissability on the individual?? NO!! I said that it is the enemy that brings sickness. When it all comes downt to it it is all adam's fault but no one ever blames him we all point the finger at each other and start arguments. And yes I believe that the sick need doctors but that wasn't the agrument only that people did bring it on themeselves but the sin nature that we inherit from adam brings it and the enemy can come in through that open door. It is up to parents and other christians to pray and close those spiritual doors so that the enemy has no access to our lives and the lives of our loved ones and offspring

 

[artybloke]

I am not going to defend myself with telling you all that I do do, except to say that I am a Bible-believing Christian and when the Bible says that sexual perversion is wrong, THEN IT IS WRONG!

a) the Bible DOES NOT, ANYWHERE mention transexualism. And, once again, transexualism has nothing to do with sex; it has to do with gender.

b) Neither does it use, in either Greek or Hebrew, a word that means "homosexual." Not surprising, as the word wasn't even coined till the mid-nineteenth century by a German psychiatrist.

c) I see no reason to apologise when it seems to me that you have obviously swallowed wholesale the biased and uncompassionate interpretation of a bunch of right-wing fundamentalists, and, like all fundamentalists, are unprepared to budge from your self-righteous and pharasiacal position one jot.

d) If you genuinely want to find out about transexualism, there is plenty of information out there. However, if you wish to remain in ignorance, that is of course your right.

 

[cubanpete]

I don't see how being BORN transgendered/hermaphoditic has anything to do with sexual perversion. This is something that the person had no control over how thier organs were formed. Note: I am not using the homosexual argument that they are "born that way"...being born with evidence of multiple genders is clearly evident and undisputable.

 

[DIVAMOM]

Transgendered is not the same thing as hermaphoditic.

 

[DIVAMOM]

As for me, I'm bowing out of this thread. It's doing no good to help with the issues that I am facing. It's simply succeeding in bringing out my arguementative side, which I have been working very hard to conceal since I am a child of God. I'm going to continue to rely on my relationship with the Lord to get me through, and I will continue to love my neighbors while whole-heartedly being in disagreement with them. I pray that this will spark something inside each one of you to become closer to the Lord and to learn to love others for who they are.
God bless all.

 

[artybloke]

Transgendered is not the same thing as hermaphoditic.

It's the same general area though. Transgender, hermaohrodistism, intersex and other syndromes are all basically in the same ball-park: that is, that none of the people who have these syndromes are responsible for them. They were born with them. To disagree with that, you have to go against the general consensus of medical opinion world-wide. And to do that you have to have good, solid, medical evidence that has been properly tested and refereed, not a bunch of out-of-context Bible quotes, none of which were ever intended to refer to such syndromes. There are people out in the world whose gender was indeterminate at birth (ask any midwife) and the doctors had to choose one or the other. That's all part of the same spectrum. Sexual identity for some few people in the population is not easy.

 

[Richard]

?

 

[Richard]

I guess i'm to young because that convo just blew past my head !

 

[Richard]

WoW looking at post above I really don't understand what everyone is talking about !!!

 

[ahab]

Hi artybloke,

a) the Bible DOES NOT, ANYWHERE mention transexualism. And, once again, transexualism has nothing to do with sex; it has to do with gender.

How can transexualism have nothing to with sex but gender. Surely transgender is to do with gender and transexual to do with sex?

b) Neither does it use, in either Greek or Hebrew, a word that means "homosexual." Not surprising, as the word wasn't even coined till the mid-nineteenth century by a German psychiatrist.

Same-sex sexual practise is what is condemned throughout the Bible not ones gender or sexual orientation. That I am a heterosexual brings problems for me too, I may be born with lustful desires which I can resist and overcome by the power of the Holy Spirit.

c) I see no reason to apologise when it seems to me that you have obviously swallowed wholesale the biased and uncompassionate interpretation of a bunch of right-wing fundamentalists, and, like all fundamentalists, are unprepared to budge from your self-righteous and pharasiacal position one jot.

Some of the Pharisees believed Jesus.
How can you consider the written testimony of the New Testament disciples and apostles about the Gospel of Jesus uncompassionate and fundamental? Where do you stand? Surely Jesus is righteous, not us?

d) If you genuinely want to find out about transexualism, there is plenty of information out there. However, if you wish to remain in ignorance, that is of course your right. To disagree with that, you have to go against the general consensus of medical opinion world-wide.

The medical position is not quite as unanimous and clear cut as you want to claim. In the case of surgery for gender dysphoria the medical profession dont recognise they can change a persons sex entirely.

 

[artybloke]

How can transexualism have nothing to with sex but gender. Surely transgender is to do with gender and transexual to do with sex?

Transgender = transexualism. They're just different words for the same thing. Transgender is probably a more accurate word.

Same-sex sexual practise is what is condemned throughout the Bible not ones gender or sexual orientation.

Er... 4 or 5 verses in the whole Bible, none of which when examined in the cultural context of the times they were written can be described as "unequivocal", can hardly be described as "throughout the Bible." I see as usual the consevative position is to demand obeidiance to their interpretation as the only one possible.

Surely Jesus is righteous, not us?

The witness of Jesus is clear: love God, love your neighbour is the whole of the law. The witness of Paul is clear: we are saved by grace, not by adherence to ancient ritual laws.

The medical position is not quite as unanimous and clear cut as you want to claim.

Point taken. Scientists are always disagreeing. But so far, there is no cure; and about one fifth of all transgendered people who don't have the surgery end up committing suicide. Which is the more compassionate act: to say their feelings are imaginary, and fill them full of drugs, or to help them to become who they feel they are.

 

[ahab]

Hi again Artibloke,

Sorry to be pedantic but you have just written

Transgender = transexualism. They're just different words for the same thing.

But on post #23 on 31st July 2004, 03:40 PM you wrote

transexualism has nothing to do with sex; it has to do with gender.

With respect you seem very confused if I may say.

Er... 4 or 5 verses in the whole Bible, none of which when examined in the cultural context of the times they were written can be described as "unequivocal", can hardly be described as "throughout the Bible." I see as usual the consevative position is to demand obeidiance to their interpretation as the only one possible.

Well several verses in the Bible have most certainly been examined at great length in the cultural contexts throughout the hundreds of years of the OT and in the Greek and Roman cultures and same-sex sex was practiced.by non-believers and recognised as a sin by Christians.
Considering several verses condemning against no verses supporting same-sex sex is as "unequivocal" as one can get for those who wish to hear and understand. What do you mean by conservative? Are we seeking God’s will and purpose or playing word politics?

The witness of Jesus is clear: love God, love your neighbour is the whole of the law. The witness of Paul is clear: we are saved by grace, not by adherence to ancient ritual laws.

Not quite, Jesus say it is the sum of the law and the prophets. The witness of Jesus as clear agape love is not based on sex is it?. When Jesus quotes ‘love your neighbour’ from Leviticus He wasn’t condoning all the other Levitical sexual activities like incest same-sex sex, prostitution and inappropriate behavior with animals was He? Otherwise that would contradict when He quotes Genesis 2 and God’s purpose in creation for faithful man and woman marriage, or celibacy as an alternative. I agree with you that we are saved by grace, but Paul also says that homosexual practices are perversion. Why do you believe and accept one thing Paul writes and not another?

or to help them to become who they feel they are.

Who they are in Christ Jesus and the Kingdom of God or who they are in the world? Many people are committing suicide for all kinds of reasons, depression, drugs, debt, sexual problems etc etc. so what is your point? Are we not to love all our neighbours and tell them the Gospel? You make the gospel sound less use to anyone, the Holy Spirit sound powerless and the Kingdom of Heaven, peace joy and righteousness, less preferable to sexual fulfilment and self gratification.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Hi again Artibloke,

Sorry to be pedantic but you have just written Transgender = transexualism. They're just different words for the same thing. But on post #23 on 31st July 2004, 03:40 PM you wrote transexualism has nothing to do with sex; it has to do with gender. With respect you seem very confused if I may say.

Simply on a linguistic note: sometimes we ask what sex someone is, i.e. male or female, but we area actually asking after their gender. This has nothing to do with sex in the sense of sexual activity.

I think that is the distinction artybloke is making.

 

[artybloke]

Considering several verses condemning against no verses supporting same-sex sex is as "unequivocal"

What exactly are they condemning? All homosexual practice, or just homosexual practice in the context of pagan temple rituals? (Which is, for instance, the main context of Leviticus and Romans.) It seems to me that there is no universal condemnation of homosexuality, that the only time it its mentioned is in the context of paganism and idolatry, and there is certainly no mention one way or the other of transgenderism, a concept which I can't imagine would have even been graspable in the ancient world.

Are we not to love all our neighbours and tell them the Gospel?

And what is the Gospel of Christ but to love God and to love your neighbour? In those two commandments are contained the whole of the law. That means that any law that breaks those two commandments breaks the whole of the law. And we are saved by grace, not by adherence to a bunch of outmoded ritual laws that were only ever intended to be kept by the nation of Isreal.

 

[ahab]

Hi Artibloke,

What exactly are they condemning? All homosexual practice, or just homosexual practice in the context of pagan temple rituals?

All homosexual practice. No distinction is made. Same-sex sex was common in idolatry and pagan temple worship but occurred outside that context both in Corinth and Rome as well. In his letter to Timothy Paul refers homosexual practice with reference to the Mosaic laws set apart from pagan practices as God’s requirements for God’s people so we know that is against God’s purpose. Paul uses the same word in his letter to Timothy as to the Corinthian church. At Sodom one of the wicked sins was the men wanting sex with the men(angels) which wasnt ritual that is seemed like a sort of gang rape doesn’t mean it was same-sex sex. If God’s purpose in creation is for man and woman and for those who find the teaching difficult, celibacy for various reasons then same-sex sex isnt God’s purpose is it?

It seems to me that there is no universal condemnation of homosexuality

To me too, Scripture doesn’t talk sexuality but sexual desires and practices, it condemns homosexual practice.

And what is the Gospel of Christ but to love God and to love your neighbour? In those two commandments are contained the whole of the law. That means that any law that breaks those two commandments breaks the whole of the law. ...we live our lives not by adherence to a bunch of outmoded ritual laws that were only ever intended to be kept by the nation of Isreal.

But Genesis isnt just Israel is it? Being saved by Grace is different from living our lives for God isnt it?

Sorry Artibloke my friend but you dont seem to be addressing my points but rather just making some more which seem to be general, unless you are saying God cant love transexuals or homosexuals unless they are allowed to express their personal sexual desires?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I really need some guidance here. I've posted a similar thread to this in the Women's discussion, but there were really no answers there.
I have two friends in a relationship, one of whom is a transgendered person.
As a Christian, how am I to respond to them? I am really torn. My initial stand was to simply love them, now I'm not so sure. I thought one of them was strong in their Christian faith, but after speaking with them last night, I feel like the HS spoke to my heart and said, call that as it is, a lie and deciet and such. I'm just not sure.
Any one with any insight?

Hey Divamom,

The HS would not say such a thing.... just because you hear a spirit talking to you DOES NOT mean it's the Holy Spirit. Go back to loving them... they have a very heavy cross to bear....

Forgive me..

 

[Sharp]

I really need some guidance here. I've posted a similar thread to this in the Women's discussion, but there were really no answers there.
I have two friends in a relationship, one of whom is a transgendered person.
As a Christian, how am I to respond to them? I am really torn. My initial stand was to simply love them, now I'm not so sure. I thought one of them was strong in their Christian faith, but after speaking with them last night, I feel like the HS spoke to my heart and said, call that as it is, a lie and deciet and such. I'm just not sure.
Any one with any insight?

Many religious liberals have never had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Not everyone who says "Lord Lord" is a Christian. Jesus said that there would be many who would take the wide road but few that would take the straight and narrow. Your friend has chosen SIN over Jesus Christ. You must reject her from fellowship. The Bible is quite clear about that. Don't contribute to her sin by seeming to approve it. Speak boldly. Don't pray or study the Bible with her or fellowship in Christ with her. Treat as you would any other NON-Christian, with courtesy but not with fellowship in Christ.

If your church tolerates sexual sin forbidden by the Bible, then you must quit that church and join a Bible-believing church.

 

[artybloke]

Many religious liberals have never had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ

How the **** would you know?

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Many religious liberals have never had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

This is at least the third time I've seen such a statement in one of Sharp's posts today. He seems intent on insinuating that liberal Chrisitans do not have a relationship with Jesus Christ. This seems to be verging on the slanderous. Can he be told to desist by forum moderators?

Alternatively may we respond by saying that many conservative "Christians" have never had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It is just as true, if not more so, as those who are "Christian" because it was how they were brought up are less likely to have such a relaionship than those who come to a real faith of their own accord. However, I acknowledge that many conservative Chrstians do have a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus, just as many liberal Christians do.

Karin