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Transsexual's Bad?
- Thread starter Sarah H
- Start date
Polycarp1
Born-again Liberal Episcopalian
What Elanor said is very much on target. Gender dysphoria -- i.e., identifying as being the opposite sex "inside", in your spirit, from what your body says you are -- is a real and psychologically recognized syndrome. And it can be treated -- in some cases, by aiding the person to come to terms with his/her body, in others, by a course of therapy to bring the body into conformity with the interior perception. Sarah, if you have not already done so, I strongly urge consultation with a competent psychologist with expertise in this field. It must be absolutely horrible to find yourself "wearing the body of a boy" while "feeling inside like a girl."
It's important, too, to distinguish this from transvestism, as forgivensinner mentioned above -- that is the kinky habit of wearing the clothing of the opposite sex, for some sort of libido stimulation. This is different, and deeper. And it is not homosexuality -- which is a man, as a man, being sexually attracted to another man, and desiring sex between the two men, or the same for a woman with another woman. Transgenderism relates to what one perceives oneself to be, in terms of feeling oneself to be a man with a woman's body or a woman with a man's body -- and has nothing to do with sexual attraction per se.
I don't have a quick-and-dirty solution to what Sarah ought to do, beyond seeing a psychologist to determine what her proper course of action ought to be. But I am quite certain that the rather simplistic suggestions made about renouncing the feeling as sin are in error. We don't know a whole lot about what causes gender dysphoria or how best to deal with it -- but the right answers, whatever they are, are not simple.
For those of you who have trouble identifying with what Sarah is facing, try a thought experiment: Imagine you wake up tomorrow morning and, if you are male, find yourself in a girl's body; if female, in a man's. Then think about what you "ought to do" in such a nightmare situation and what God would expect of you if such a thing really happened. This is, effectively, what Sarah has been going through and will continue to go through. Found your advice to her on what you would feel right to do in such a situation.
Peace!
It's important, too, to distinguish this from transvestism, as forgivensinner mentioned above -- that is the kinky habit of wearing the clothing of the opposite sex, for some sort of libido stimulation. This is different, and deeper. And it is not homosexuality -- which is a man, as a man, being sexually attracted to another man, and desiring sex between the two men, or the same for a woman with another woman. Transgenderism relates to what one perceives oneself to be, in terms of feeling oneself to be a man with a woman's body or a woman with a man's body -- and has nothing to do with sexual attraction per se.
I don't have a quick-and-dirty solution to what Sarah ought to do, beyond seeing a psychologist to determine what her proper course of action ought to be. But I am quite certain that the rather simplistic suggestions made about renouncing the feeling as sin are in error. We don't know a whole lot about what causes gender dysphoria or how best to deal with it -- but the right answers, whatever they are, are not simple.
For those of you who have trouble identifying with what Sarah is facing, try a thought experiment: Imagine you wake up tomorrow morning and, if you are male, find yourself in a girl's body; if female, in a man's. Then think about what you "ought to do" in such a nightmare situation and what God would expect of you if such a thing really happened. This is, effectively, what Sarah has been going through and will continue to go through. Found your advice to her on what you would feel right to do in such a situation.
Peace!
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BarbB
I stand with my brothers and sisters in Israel!
Polycarp1 said:
Polycarp - what I would do in this situation is pray that God change the situation (i.e. my feelings). Barring that I would pray that God would give me the grace to accept the situation!
What I wouldn't do is act upon my feelings which are not to be trusted. If God has not answered, then I would do nothing surgically to change the situation. Sarah has said that God has not spoken and I think she has her answer whether she believes it or not!
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mpshiel
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Hi Sarah, good to see you are still hanging in there.
I would just repeat what Polycarp said: this is about the identity of gender, not sexual attraction. As someone pointed out with the David Riemer story - basically there was a botched circumcision and this doctor's theory was: there is no gender identity hardwired at birth and it is all circumstance. So the boy was raised as a girl, given hormones etc to live a totally normal girls life - only the person didn't feel normal because they identified as a boy (even though no-one had told him what had been done). Once an adult David changed to male and struggled on, though never feeling like he fit it (and recently killed himself). Intersex births or ambigious genetialia occur in 1 in 2000 births - known as Intersex. Before, babies used to just be assigned genders but after research and so many painful experiences where the gender of rearing and the self identified gender were in collision doctors wait until the baby shows what gender it identifies with. Research in California last year strongly indicated that gender identity is preset before birth (which is pretty much the problem for transsexuals). Transsexuals though still classified in the DSM IV are generally recognized as a pysiological not a psychological problem - one which requires specialist and counselling to identify. It is a medical condition, it is recognized as such and it is treated that way. All the person is doing is basically changing the cues that society uses in order to determine how a person is percieved and treated so it is in accordance with who the person really is.
To suggest that a transsexual male to female just tough it out as a male is basically telling them: You know you aren't a male but lie to everyone anyway. That hardly seems the Christian path to me.
Sarah, God said He knew you in the womb and loved you. Do you really think that God was unaware of who you were and how you saw the world? Yes, for some reason you have been given a slightly more difficult cross than most - your rights, your safety and your acceptance in society will be in jeopardy. God is able to sustain you.
Is there any verse in the bible which condemns a sex-change as a regulated and medical procedure? I can't see it. The arguement is: you are playing God. Well, so is most of the population when they buy a pair of glasses. Glasses help our lives, we could live without them, God made our eyes go bad, but we buy them anyway. Is it a lack of faith. No, it is an acceptance that our bodies are not perfect.
The arguement is: God made them male and female - well we already covered intersex and strange that Jesus talked about Eunuchs born that way and Eunuchs for the kingdom. Was he talking about a third sex? Maybe God making the first two people isn't the best example to use for the diversity of human experience?
The arguement is: don't wear clothing of the opposite sex. Well, if a transsexual KNOWS that they are female while society tells them they are male - which is the appropriate clothing to wear - how they see themselves and perhaps how God sees them or how they are percieved externally?
My opinion is that this is a non-issue. And I would recommend Sarah H for counselling to see what options are good for her. For some here, obviously it would be a sin, but I think this is a Romans 14 issue, in that if it isn't a sin for Sarah - it isn't a sin; while I would recommend those who feel it is a sin that they shouldn't enter into the process of gender reassignment.
I would just repeat what Polycarp said: this is about the identity of gender, not sexual attraction. As someone pointed out with the David Riemer story - basically there was a botched circumcision and this doctor's theory was: there is no gender identity hardwired at birth and it is all circumstance. So the boy was raised as a girl, given hormones etc to live a totally normal girls life - only the person didn't feel normal because they identified as a boy (even though no-one had told him what had been done). Once an adult David changed to male and struggled on, though never feeling like he fit it (and recently killed himself). Intersex births or ambigious genetialia occur in 1 in 2000 births - known as Intersex. Before, babies used to just be assigned genders but after research and so many painful experiences where the gender of rearing and the self identified gender were in collision doctors wait until the baby shows what gender it identifies with. Research in California last year strongly indicated that gender identity is preset before birth (which is pretty much the problem for transsexuals). Transsexuals though still classified in the DSM IV are generally recognized as a pysiological not a psychological problem - one which requires specialist and counselling to identify. It is a medical condition, it is recognized as such and it is treated that way. All the person is doing is basically changing the cues that society uses in order to determine how a person is percieved and treated so it is in accordance with who the person really is.
To suggest that a transsexual male to female just tough it out as a male is basically telling them: You know you aren't a male but lie to everyone anyway. That hardly seems the Christian path to me.
Sarah, God said He knew you in the womb and loved you. Do you really think that God was unaware of who you were and how you saw the world? Yes, for some reason you have been given a slightly more difficult cross than most - your rights, your safety and your acceptance in society will be in jeopardy. God is able to sustain you.
Is there any verse in the bible which condemns a sex-change as a regulated and medical procedure? I can't see it. The arguement is: you are playing God. Well, so is most of the population when they buy a pair of glasses. Glasses help our lives, we could live without them, God made our eyes go bad, but we buy them anyway. Is it a lack of faith. No, it is an acceptance that our bodies are not perfect.
The arguement is: God made them male and female - well we already covered intersex and strange that Jesus talked about Eunuchs born that way and Eunuchs for the kingdom. Was he talking about a third sex? Maybe God making the first two people isn't the best example to use for the diversity of human experience?
The arguement is: don't wear clothing of the opposite sex. Well, if a transsexual KNOWS that they are female while society tells them they are male - which is the appropriate clothing to wear - how they see themselves and perhaps how God sees them or how they are percieved externally?
My opinion is that this is a non-issue. And I would recommend Sarah H for counselling to see what options are good for her. For some here, obviously it would be a sin, but I think this is a Romans 14 issue, in that if it isn't a sin for Sarah - it isn't a sin; while I would recommend those who feel it is a sin that they shouldn't enter into the process of gender reassignment.
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Right as always mpshiel
I know I can convince my mom with all the posts here.
And all my fears are gone I know it is not a sin.
Gonna start counseling soon too I just got a job today after months of looking
I know I can convince my mom with all the posts here.
And all my fears are gone I know it is not a sin.
Gonna start counseling soon too I just got a job today after months of looking
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he_is_risen!!
All ways in need of help
wonder111 said:
God has a hand in everything IF we let Him. This is where free will comes into play. If we choose not to allow Him inot our lives then He won't be in our live, but if you truly want him there then He'll be there. God's a gentleman, if you ask Him to leave then he'll leave and if you ask for help in a struggle then He will give it at the BEST time in the Best way. We as Christians are constantly in a spiritual battle and if we choose to fight the battle alone w/o God then He'll let us, but when we ask for help then He WILL give it in the best way.
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artybloke
Well-Known Member
I'd heartily concur with Polycarp1 and mpsheil: this is not a matter of sin or not sin. You can no more help your identity than I can help my Male Pattern Baldness and myopia. There is evidence, in fact, of physiological differences in the hypocampus area of the brain - the part that decides sexual identity - in other words it isn't your fault! I suggest you do a search on somewhere like PubMed to look up recent scientific research. That's much better than most of the frankly bizarre "advice" you've recieved from some people here. You can't pray away transexuality, anymore than you can pray away Down's Syndrome, or shortsightedness or any of the other genetic defects.
A friend of mine, also a Christian, who is also male to female transexual, likens it to the piece of grit that creates a pearl. It can often be a real burden and an irritant, and there are always going to be people who stare or who look down on you. But you can use this for good to, to make something beautiful from it.
God bless, and my prayers are with you.
A friend of mine, also a Christian, who is also male to female transexual, likens it to the piece of grit that creates a pearl. It can often be a real burden and an irritant, and there are always going to be people who stare or who look down on you. But you can use this for good to, to make something beautiful from it.
God bless, and my prayers are with you.
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Sarah - I am horrified at the brutal attacks you have received from some of the posters here. They clearly are ill informed as well as unkind. I am so sorry that you have been treated in this way.
I don't know that this is a sin/not sin issue at all. I think that most of all this is a medical/psychological decision. Clearly there are some people born that are not clearly one gender or another, or whose body does not match their personhood. I do not know why and I doubt that anyone does. And I do not know what a Christian response to this should be - assuming that there is one Christian response.
I do know that all healing is from God - by medicine or surgery or sudden inexplicable event - they are all healing from God.
You and your Mom might want to try and contact psychology departments at Christian colleges and ask if they can refer you to any Christians who have done work (research, medical, psychological etc.) in this field. I know that there is an exhaustive process before anyone will perform such surgery and I think that may prove to be very benificial for you.
I know that God loves you. That he cares deeply about you and that He will never leave you. My prayers are with you, Sarah.
I don't know that this is a sin/not sin issue at all. I think that most of all this is a medical/psychological decision. Clearly there are some people born that are not clearly one gender or another, or whose body does not match their personhood. I do not know why and I doubt that anyone does. And I do not know what a Christian response to this should be - assuming that there is one Christian response.
I do know that all healing is from God - by medicine or surgery or sudden inexplicable event - they are all healing from God.
You and your Mom might want to try and contact psychology departments at Christian colleges and ask if they can refer you to any Christians who have done work (research, medical, psychological etc.) in this field. I know that there is an exhaustive process before anyone will perform such surgery and I think that may prove to be very benificial for you.
I know that God loves you. That he cares deeply about you and that He will never leave you. My prayers are with you, Sarah.
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elanor
Reunite Gondwanaland!
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Sarah, is there any way your mom would be willing to attend some counseling sessions, too--either with you or alone? This is obviously something you have to deal with, but your decision affects the people who love you, as well. Perhaps your mom would benefit from having someone to talk to about this.
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My mum for some reason doesnt like the idea of counseling she doesnt believe it does any good in any way so its hard to get her to go.
Though she told me that she never cared if I was a boy or a girl and she still doesnt , That she will love me no matter what still she is only worried that if I do this it will keep me out of heaven, I guess if I cant convince her she will just have to quit worrieing about it.
Though she told me that she never cared if I was a boy or a girl and she still doesnt , That she will love me no matter what still she is only worried that if I do this it will keep me out of heaven, I guess if I cant convince her she will just have to quit worrieing about it.
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sunshinejennii
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Polycarp1
Born-again Liberal Episcopalian
Whether or not one agrees with sexual reassignment therapy, I think it's important to point out (not for Sarah but for those who may not be aware of the details) that it's not something one can do on the spur of the moment like getting one's ear pierced or getting a tattoo.
The therapists who will perform the necessary procedures have a rather complex program which one must go through. Summarized briefly:
1. A period of psychotherapeutic counseling with the double intent of determining whether "genuine" gender dysphoria exists, and enabling the patient to come to terms with the disparity between his/her body and his/her self-image. This will lead, in cases where it's determined that it's not "genuine gender dysphoria," to therapy intended to identify the causes why someone is dissatisfied with his/her body and to treat that dissatisfaction psychotherapeutically. This will go on for at least a year.
2. If genuine dysphoria is found to exist, the patient is then placed on an ongoing course of counseling therapy and hormonal treatment, intended at transforming the overt secondary sex characteristics (breasts, beard, etc.) into those of the opposite sex and ensuring that the patient continues to be committed to the process and is making the adjustment to becoming a man or a woman satisfactorily. This is normally a two- to three-year process.
3. Only after a satisfactory course of therapy under step #2 will the actual surgery be performed, removing the genitalia of the former sex and constructing the genitalia of the new sex.
Sarah, I'd like to try to put you in touch with a couple of MTF transsexuals if both you and they agree to the linkup. They are likely to have some useful advice on making the decision to undergo SRT and what you can expect in terms of feelings and experiences, from their own firsthand experience. One of them is noted biographer of Hollywood stars Eve Golden, who is a personal online friend. (I recall her comment when she finally "came out" as transsexual online: "I try always to be a lady. But when I was a boy, my mother raised me to be a gentleman.")
The therapists who will perform the necessary procedures have a rather complex program which one must go through. Summarized briefly:
1. A period of psychotherapeutic counseling with the double intent of determining whether "genuine" gender dysphoria exists, and enabling the patient to come to terms with the disparity between his/her body and his/her self-image. This will lead, in cases where it's determined that it's not "genuine gender dysphoria," to therapy intended to identify the causes why someone is dissatisfied with his/her body and to treat that dissatisfaction psychotherapeutically. This will go on for at least a year.
2. If genuine dysphoria is found to exist, the patient is then placed on an ongoing course of counseling therapy and hormonal treatment, intended at transforming the overt secondary sex characteristics (breasts, beard, etc.) into those of the opposite sex and ensuring that the patient continues to be committed to the process and is making the adjustment to becoming a man or a woman satisfactorily. This is normally a two- to three-year process.
3. Only after a satisfactory course of therapy under step #2 will the actual surgery be performed, removing the genitalia of the former sex and constructing the genitalia of the new sex.
Sarah, I'd like to try to put you in touch with a couple of MTF transsexuals if both you and they agree to the linkup. They are likely to have some useful advice on making the decision to undergo SRT and what you can expect in terms of feelings and experiences, from their own firsthand experience. One of them is noted biographer of Hollywood stars Eve Golden, who is a personal online friend. (I recall her comment when she finally "came out" as transsexual online: "I try always to be a lady. But when I was a boy, my mother raised me to be a gentleman."
)
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Polycarp I would love for you toput me in touch with them its alway good to talk to new ppl.
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This thread would make Jesus cry.
Where does the Bible say transgenderism is a sin? It's a matter of biology - not a question of "free will" or "God changing things" - and people ought not to dogmatically lecture about a matter they clearly don't understand.
Where does the Bible say transgenderism is a sin? It's a matter of biology - not a question of "free will" or "God changing things" - and people ought not to dogmatically lecture about a matter they clearly don't understand.
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he_is_risen!! said:
Then why has god yet to have given me a vagina. God gave me the brain of a woman, now its time he completes the job
.
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calmius said:
how does one define who is male and who is female? is it the brain or the thing between their legs?
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Sarah...
You're not alone hunny.
First of all... you're not sinning.
Let me ask two questions of those of you gathered here in this thread...
First, would you all agree that God presents each and every one of us with special challenges in our lives? Second, would you agree that Jesus himself was persecuted for what he knew to be true, yet still carried on and did what he had to do?
Keeping that in mind, let's apply that to Sarah's dillemma, which I too share in:
I believe that God intended Sarah to have the feelings she has... much like a "calling..." a feeling that compells Sarah to do what she feels in her heart. After all, she wouldn't be having these feelings if it wasn't God's will, right? It just so happens that the compelling feeling that Sarah has in her heart tells her that she is in actuality a girl... a female mind trapped in a male shell. Personally, I'm pretty confident that God doesn't have a physical body like we do... God is all around us, in everything we see, touch, smell, and sense... why should a biological body... a physical shell... matter much to God? I'd be inclined to think that God probably just lets the physical things happen as they may, along the natural course of evolution or creation or whichever... because God is probably more interested not in what your body is, but in what your mind and soul is.
Sarah... are you a good person? Are you just, kind, compassionate, etc? If so... I believe you have nothing to fear from Hell... for you will not being going there.
You're not alone hunny.
First of all... you're not sinning.
Let me ask two questions of those of you gathered here in this thread...
First, would you all agree that God presents each and every one of us with special challenges in our lives? Second, would you agree that Jesus himself was persecuted for what he knew to be true, yet still carried on and did what he had to do?
Keeping that in mind, let's apply that to Sarah's dillemma, which I too share in:
I believe that God intended Sarah to have the feelings she has... much like a "calling..." a feeling that compells Sarah to do what she feels in her heart. After all, she wouldn't be having these feelings if it wasn't God's will, right? It just so happens that the compelling feeling that Sarah has in her heart tells her that she is in actuality a girl... a female mind trapped in a male shell. Personally, I'm pretty confident that God doesn't have a physical body like we do... God is all around us, in everything we see, touch, smell, and sense... why should a biological body... a physical shell... matter much to God? I'd be inclined to think that God probably just lets the physical things happen as they may, along the natural course of evolution or creation or whichever... because God is probably more interested not in what your body is, but in what your mind and soul is.
Sarah... are you a good person? Are you just, kind, compassionate, etc? If so... I believe you have nothing to fear from Hell... for you will not being going there.
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