Transsexual's Bad?

[Scotticher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by: forgivensinner001

So, what about all the people born with birth defects?

That is relevent to what?

Bill

That is relevent because if you take this to the logical conclusion, a person born with birth defects is that way because of God's will and nothing should be done to correct the condition. It means that my friend's child, born with a congenital heart defect that would have killed her, should have been left alone. To die instead of having surgery to correct the condition and living to go to Africa and serve the Lord as a nurse.

I am not questioning God's will here. I don't understand, a lot of the time, WHY God does what He does. Why He allows what He allows. I don't understand why God allowed my mother, a Godly woman who had a witness and a prayer life that puts most people to shame....to die of cancer a few years ago. To me, it looks wrong......so many people were brought to God's grace by my mom's witness. Why did He choose to take her to Heaven instead of letting her continue her mission? I don't know. But I have never questioned it. I know that God's ways are not always clear to me. But I have complete faith that He knew what He was doing. Even if *I* didn't.

If God chose to allow Sarah to be born a woman with the wrong physical body, I trust that He had a reason. What that might be, I might never understand. But to say that it is a sin for her to have treatment to correct that birth defect? That, I don't understand AT ALL.

It is a birth defect, just the same as Spina Bifida or Cerebral Palsy. Should we, then, just accept birth defects as God's will and refuse to correct the condition insofar as we are able? God gave us Doctors. He gave them to us so that we could live more perfectly. So that we could more perfectly live the purpose He has for each of us on this earthly plain.

I am not saying God makes mistakes, I am saying He does NOT make mistakes. He had His reasons, and who are we to question them? I am certainly not qualified. But maybe, just MAYBE, the reason Sarah was put on this earth with the wrong physical body was so that she could be a perfect witness to the lost souls who are unhappy and lost beyond their own confusion and pain....so bitter and miserable and blaming God for their unhappiness because they were born with the wrong physical body. Maybe God knew that only someone who had been through the same thing could reach them.

Being born with a body that is NOT the gender you ARE....IS a birth defect. Every bit as much as being born with both genitalia or being born deaf or blind. If there is a way to correct the birth defect, are you saying that if it is possible TO correct it, we SHOULDN'T?

I just don't understand that. Seems to me that it is one way or the other. Either we say that since God doesn't make mistakes, we shouldn't use the medical gifts that God has given us to correct birth defects.....or we say that if God has allowed or decreed that a person is born with an imperfect body we SHOULD use the gifts He has given us to correct the problems.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

I dont think its ok for women to wear men's clothing. Pant's or jeans arent sex-exclusive clothes. But if I see a woman who wears men's business suit or other obviously men's clothes, I believe its wrong because she tries to appear unnaturaly masculine. I like when women and girls wear dresses or skirts.


Here's a good concise and non-metaphoric statement from the Bible:

"A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God."
[Deuteronomy 22:5]

You may check any translation for the above statement.
I am sure you also read many passages in the Bible that say why homosexual behavior is a sin.

Ok Sarah, I have replied to each of your complaints and hopefully you see my though process.

It is very relevant to realize that the clothing refered to as men's clothing or women's clothing in that passage is nothing like anything we wear today. What clothing is appropiate for either sex is entirely cultural.

 

[bliz]

Scotticher -

Amen! Well said!

 

[Hitokiri Shadow]

I don't understand how someone can be a male in a females body or vice versa. Sure, there are some psychological differences, but gender is determined by genitalia is it not?

I'm just curious how you determine if your actually male or actually female... perhaps I am actually a lesbian in a male body? How would one know? I am honestly curious how this is determined.

 

[Scotticher]

I don't pretend to understand this. I doubt that anyone who doesn't have the problem COULD understand it. But there are babies born with indeterminate genitalia, and even if nothing is done to change that, they grow up and DO have a strong sense of gender. From the little I know, this has nothing to do with sexual attraction, it has to do with who you are. Just as an aside, sometimes these babies parents and Doctors sort of "best (sic) guess" the situation and take steps to create the physical gender they THINK the child is. And this has created huge problems for some of these children, who grow up in...say...a woman's body, but are really male, and they have all the psychological and life problems of a transsexual. Mind you, I have read case studies of some of these kids, and most of them didn't even KNOW about what had occurred in their early life. They just knew they felt like freaks because they identified as a woman, but their physical body was male. Or, as I said, vice versa.

Can you imagine how horrible this would be? Your whole identity being based on what you feel is a lie?

Imagine if you woke up tommorow and you had a female body instead of your usual male one. Or vice versa. You think like a man, identify as a man, interact with others as a man.....but you have a female body. Can you even begin to comprehend how much of a nightmare this would be.

No, I don't think anyone could understand this unless it was happening to them.

 

[cabbitgrrrl]

I don't understand how someone can be a male in a females body or vice versa. Sure, there are some psychological differences, but gender is determined by genitalia is it not?

I'm just curious how you determine if your actually male or actually female... perhaps I am actually a lesbian in a male body? How would one know? I am honestly curious how this is determined.

its called developing a female brain at birth, if gender was determined by genitalia, then wouldnt most of those boys who had srs when they were little due to complications at birth be happy as girls? the answer is no, because one's brain is tuned with a gender, sometimes it doesnt match that which is between the legs. And believe me, if you were really female, you'd know...

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

I don't understand how someone can be a male in a females body or vice versa. Sure, there are some psychological differences, but gender is determined by genitalia is it not?

I'm just curious how you determine if your actually male or actually female... perhaps I am actually a lesbian in a male body? How would one know? I am honestly curious how this is determined.

Sex is determined by genitals. Gender refers more to self-identity.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

For Sarah and whoever else needs one: *hug*

 

[Polycarp1]

For the record, let me welcome Scotticher, whom I presume found her way here through my link, and who is one of the finest Christian ladies it's ever been my pleasure to know, though since we live on opposite coasts, that "know" has been totally electronically -- something I hope someday to be able to correct!

As an update, I've placed Sarah in contact with Ms. Golden and with a thread linking to resources for transgendered people. Theologically she will have to make her own decisions as to what is the right thing for her to do, but at least she has material with which to make informed decisions now.

 

[cutekid 4 Jesus]

[

^^ I agree!

 

[I'ddie4him]

Sex is determined by genitals. Gender refers more to self-identity.

I am going to disagree with this statement, I grew up with a kid in minnesota years ago who was raised as a girl for the first 5 years of his life because his parents and Dr's thought he was a girl. He was dressed as a girl and treated as a girl in every way with the frilly dresses, underpants and everything. Then one nite when he was in the tub, His genitals finally dropped. This is something that should have happened at infancy, But, His body didn't want to conform to the laws of nature. He went to counseling for years afterwards for a gender identity crisis. His parents had named him Lori at birth, and then changed it to Loren. He did have some problems later in life in dealing with this, But, I found out just a few years ago from his family, That he had surgery to correct what he felt was wrong all his life. This imprinting happens at a very early age and can be devastating to the person who doesn't really know who they are inside. I can't even begin to imagine the confusion and inner turmoil that would result from growing up this way.

 

[Vampgrrl]

Wow, I was just surfing through the forums and found this kinda sorta old thread. I had to contribute.

I am a post op transsexual woman, 29 yrs old pretty well adjusted taxpaying Republican voting, person. AKA I'm pretty conservative.
I just wanted to chime in to say this..

1. There is no right or wrong answer a person can give to this, only they and God know their heart and their motovations for doing such a thing. I know when I was 19 yrs old I was a pretty depressed kid, trying and sturggling with this stuff. God did get me through it. Years of therapy, going to multiple uber conservative churches..figuring I can pray this away. It didn't. I didn't want to live anymore, I didn't want to put my family through this. I remember sitting in my car overcome with emotion wanting to die b/c I didnt want to do the wrong thing. God did tell me that day I was supposed to endure this and that I still had a responsibility to lead a moral life, and do what was right in every way. Several yrs later I for the first time in my life I finally became a well adjusted person. Doing this, doesnt even occur to me..it was past I am just a woman living my everyday life I guess.

2. Transsexual people that I have met, many have been some of the most depressed and messed up people I have ever met in my life, especially pre op/pre transition. When the few role models that are in any way visable are Jerry Springer guests. It's not like that, most try to blend into normal society, never to tell anyone in real life. It also has nothing to do with homosexuality..I do not date anyone and I'm usually ok with that, that is a choice I've made for what I feel is right.

Perhaps I am not the best speaker to explain this stuff but I wanted to put myself out here if just for a bit to explain that it's a hard thing to go through and you can be normal (yaya I know what is normal)

 

[loki2004]

I dont think its ok for women to wear men's clothing. Pant's or jeans arent sex-exclusive clothes. But if I see a woman who wears men's business suit or other obviously men's clothes, I believe its wrong because she tries to appear unnaturaly masculine. I like when women and girls wear dresses or skirts.


O.K., but what we are talking about here is transsexualism, not transvestism. They are two very different things. Even if you have never felt you were the wrong gender, can you not understand another person's struggle? You don't know what it is like to feel as if you were another gender trapped in whatever body you have...try to have some compassion.

 

[balloony]

I'm a Methodist Christian that will be baptised as a Roman Catholic in 2 months time. After reading through all these posts, I feel compelled to give my opinion on this. I'm trying to be as non-judgemental as possible in this post, and I truly hope that I'm not saying the wrong things.

I've been taught that everyone is a sinner, and so am I. Because of my sins, I don't think that I have the right to say what Sarah is doing is wrong, because like what we learnt in the New Testament, why should we try to take out the speck of dust in our brother's eyes when we have a log in our own eyes? Anyway, it will be God that will have the authority to judge you when Judgement Day comes, when the Book of Life will be opened and the crowd of living and dead divided into the righteous/non-righteous. Since the Book of Life is in the hands of God, I personally don't think that it is right for us to say that Sarah will go to Hell if she makes the choice to go for the sex-change operation. Since God made us in his likeness, the greatest gift that he gave us was the choice of free will. Just like us, He can also choose to make the choice as to whether he allows someone to share in the glory of His kingdom. Just like Him, we can make big/small choices that will affect our destiny every single moment of our lives.

The recent movie, "Saved!" is something that I've read about in reviews and I hope that I will be able to watch it after my exams. In it, a girl in a Christian school, who got pregnant after trying to "cure" his boyfriend of homosexuality, gets condemned/octracised by her ex-clique, the Christian Jewels, especially the bible-thumping leader who is played by Mandy Moore. This movie reminded me of how Jesus tells all of us to love God and our neighbours in the Bible, no matter he/she is our enemy or not. It is really ironic that there is so much hatred and religious prejudice in this world, where people choose to focus on other aspects of the Bible when God wants us to love more than to judge.

I do agree with some posts though that you, Sarah, has been born in the body of a guy, and that is probably what God intended you to live your life through as. He probably gave you this gender identity crisis to test you, but whether you are able to withstand the test, he still loves you no matter what. To err is human. If you really choose to go for the operation, I hope that you have gone through much thinking, consideration of all aspects of your life, how it will impact others and have sought enough spiritual strength. There are people who have many dreams and aspirations, but they are willing to put aside all these for the sake of others, such as family and friends. Maybe they realise the consequences of their actions and how they will affect the lives of others as well as themselves. Hence, I hope that you have thought through deeply on how your decision will impact on the lives of others around you. Also, will you not regret it or feel guilty the rest of your life, if you just rushed in making a decision, without praying to God for guidance and strength? That means you have not even tried hard enough to seek the path that God wants you to take. I think that you should ask God to show you the path, or ask for some sign. I'm sure that He will provide it if you ask, as in the verse, "Ask and you shall receive, Knock and you shall be answered". Even if you don't get a sign readily, I'm sure that patience will pay off. God can work in miraculous ways that you never thought possible.

In any case, this is your life and besides God, nobody can tell you what to do. I would like to think that God is like the gamemaster who has set out all the different paths in front of you, and He knows what will happen if you choose one path or another, but the final decision lies with you. You control your destiny, and I hope that you will eventually walk on the path that God wants you to walk on the most....

 

[Supernaut]

Unfortunately many people in their arrogance believe that they understand the human behavior/condition but in actuality they do not fully understand Gods ways/means. Many suppose that because the bible condemns homosexuality that, anything close (transexualism) is a sin as well. We cannot ever understand, until perhaps after His second coming, What plans he truly has for each of us. If the bible is the Living Word of God and we are all in a personal relationaship with Him, then who can say that what Sarah intends to do (have a sex change) does not correlate with His plans for her? Jesus taught us all to "love each other" and we do not understand other people, do not condemn them...just love them. NO ONE THAT CALLS UPON HIS NAME WILL BE LEFT BEHIND. PERIOD!

 

[silscr]

I agree with this.

It is a sin because you're not living in accordance with your biology. You were born either a man or a woman. Its a sin because this is homosexual behavior

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

What brings this topic back from the dead after 5 years? I am curious what happened to the OP. I have had far too many trans friends (mostly female-to-male) to write off all trans people as simply lost and confused. Is it normal? Well, no, but neither is any medical or psychological condition. In a perfect world, would it happen? Of course not. But we have to deal with people as they are. If you have a person who is seriously emotionally disturbed by this issue then, through pastoral counseling and psychologists/psychiatrists, you can determine if this is really going to make their life better. I think for some people it does, for others it makes it worse, for others they think its better but other people see them as having a worse life. The issue of sexuality is complex. The Catholic Church is very strict on what defines a marriage and I don't just mean basic "one man + one woman = marriage", I mean there are many more factors involved. Among Protestants, things aren't as defined. Among the liberal denominations, even same-sex unions are embraced. Say you, a pastor, have a family who has been going to your church for a couple months -- a wife and husband in their mid-30s and two kids, 8 and 10. You are in your office talking to the couple about joining the church. Neither one of them were particularly religious but they were invited by another family. The wife says that she used to go to church as a kid. But since then, she has been afraid to come back because she is worried that people will judge her and her family because she spent the first 15 years of her life as a boy. How would you respond and would you pursue the issue? Last month a United Methodist minister, Rev. David Weekley, came out to his five children and his congregation as a transsexual. That is to say, he's been a pastor for 27 years (only 2 years there) and nobody knew he was born female. His children didn't even know it until earlier this year! But he wanted to come out as transgendered in support of same-sex unions and debate about whether to bar trans people from ministry. It's one thing to look at a 50 year old man who says he wants to become a woman and judge him as a freak or confused. It's quite another when somebody you already know reveals their secret or you're dealing with someone who is well-adjusted to being the opposite gender. If people aren't born that way, if they aren't born to transition, why do some people blossom only after they transition? Is it worth the risk of depression and suicide to tell people not to do it? Wannabe pop-star Kim Petras is the youngest trans person in the world known to have surgery. She had transitioned by age 12 with help from a gender-specialist and petitioned to have genital surgery at age 16 instead of the minimum age of 18, which was granted. I can't say I appreciate her music but she's been on interviews where the subject of her transsexuality always is a focus. But even talking about having been born a boy, she doesn't come off as anything but a girl. I think some people are born to be this way, God has plans for people, sometimes those plans look scary and strange. Joan of Arc heard voices, joined the military and was burned at the stake as a heretic. Then she was canonized a saint. When we don't have all the information, we can't make a decision. There are people who want to tear down the establishment and be gender radicals (or rock stars like David Bowie and Boy George). Then there are people who just want to live normal lives as best they can, correcting what they see as a medical problem. If they are meant to do it, they blossom. If they aren't and there are other underlying issues, then they revert. But, by far, most people who transition seem much happier and whole -- those who aren't quickly learn that this won't solve their problems. I think these issues have to be understood on a case-by-case basis, there are far too many factors to make sweeping judgments.