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Neogaia777 · Jul 21, 2021

"Needless harm", etc...?

Well, God the Father sees to it, and is a master at bringing ultimate purpose to every single and all pain, etc... So how then is it "needless" or "purposeless" always, etc...?

God Bless!

Treeplanter · Jul 21, 2021

Neogaia777 said:
They were all of the race of the original Sons of God, and God chose to genocide them all at that time, etc, by completely flooding the region of all Mesopotamia, etc...

I'm sure that all who were truly innocent went there, etc...

How is that that you think you know this...? That He needn't have done so, etc...? What if there or were some limits to His power, or what He could or could not do, etc...?

Again, How is that that you think you know this...? That He needn't have done so, etc...? What if there or were some limits to His power, or what He could or could not do, etc...?

What if at the time it was needed, and/or was seen as absolutely necessary, etc...?

God Bless!

We seem to be talking about two different Gods

The God that I am criticizing is the one that is said to be fully omniscient and omnipotent and omnibenevolent

The God that I am criticizing is the one that is said to always be loving and just and right - no matter what He does

That said, I do have a question for you:
Why bother with a God that is less than perfect?

Treeplanter · Jul 21, 2021

Neogaia777 said:
"Needless harm", etc...?

Well, God the Father sees to it, and is a master at bringing ultimate purpose to every single and all pain, etc... So how then is it "needless" or "purposeless" always, etc...?

God Bless!

God can achieve any and every purpose without causing harm in the process

Any and every time God chooses to cause harm it is, by definition, needless!

BeyondET · Jul 21, 2021

Treeplanter said:
I honestly have no problem with God allowing bad things to happen
That's just part of life and were it not for sorrow we could never know joy

My issue is with God consciously and purposefully choosing to inflict needless harm upon us

If God is allowing bad things isn’t that consciously purposely choosing to inflict having the ability to stop it. Like a flood that could of been stopped

Treeplanter · Jul 21, 2021

Neogaia777 said:
I believe in a Trinity, etc, of which God in and of the OT is God the Spirit in that arrangement, etc...

And Jesus did not admonish homosexuals, etc...

And no one has truly done away with slavery yet, no, not one yet, etc...

And we've already discussed drowning babies, etc...

God Bless!

Jesus, today, admonishes slavery
{I do not know of a single Christian who believes that Jesus says it is alright to own another person}

Jesus, today, admonishes the killing of homosexuals for being homosexual
{I don't know of a single Christian who believes that Jesus says it's ok to murder homosexuals}

Jesus, today, admonishes the drowning of babies
{I don't know of a single Christian who believes that Jesus says it's fine to drown a baby}

God, in the OT, DID sanction slavery
God, in the OT, DID command the murder of homosexuals
God, in the OT, DID drown babies

Treeplanter · Jul 21, 2021

BeyondET said:
If God is allowing bad things isn’t that consciously purposely choosing to inflict having the ability to stop it. Like a flood that could of been stopped

There is a big difference between allowing nature to run it's course
i.e. allowing floods to occur
AND
causing a flood for the express purpose of destroying human life

BeyondET · Jul 21, 2021

Treeplanter said:
There is a big difference between allowing nature to run it's course
i.e. allowing floods to occur
AND
causing a flood for the express purpose of destroying human life

Well I’m on the thinking of a local event not a global event, Hebrew language is quite interesting

Neogaia777 · Jul 21, 2021

Treeplanter said:
We seem to be talking about two different Gods

No, actually three, who are one, etc...

Treeplanter said:
The God that I am criticizing is the one that is said to be fully omniscient and omnipotent and omnibenevolent

Well, let's just start with the first one for now, etc...?

Do you even know what full omniscience from the very beginning even means, etc...? What it fully entails completely, etc...?

Treeplanter said:
The God that I am criticizing is the one that is said to always be loving and just and right - no matter what He does

What if He both did and has done nothing after the very beginning, etc...?

Treeplanter said:
That said, I do have a question for you:
Why bother with a God that is less than perfect?

Because God is a Trinity, because the Bible and Jesus said/says so, and He is not a lair, etc...

God Bless!

BeyondET · Jul 21, 2021

I don’t think most Christians believe dust of the ground from where man came from is star dust supernovas of past stars

Neogaia777 · Jul 21, 2021

Treeplanter said:
Jesus, today, admonishes slavery
{I do not know of a single Christian who believes that Jesus says it is alright to own another person}

Jesus talked about us either being slaves to sin, or else slaves to God, etc...

But as for people owning other people or not, I don't think He actually ever directly addressed it directly, etc...

But, a person who was a slave in Israel had a very, very good life most of the time, etc, so much so that if their masters would try and release them and/or send them away, or set them free, etc, they would all but beg to be able to continue with them and stay, etc, as there were many, many provisions/strict rules in the OT for the Israelites in how they treated their quote/unquote "slaves", etc, as they were more like "very willing servants", due to how well they had it and were treated, etc, they didn't want to leave or be set free, etc...

Treeplanter said:
Jesus, today, admonishes the killing of homosexuals for being homosexual
{I don't know of a single Christian who believes that Jesus says it's ok to murder homosexuals}

Ah, yes, your talking about God in the OT again, aren't you...?

Well, He was learning, and eventually learned you could not eliminate or do away with all sin by killing all of the sinners, etc, just didn't/doesn't work in the end, etc...

And Jesus I don't think ever directly addressed the topic of homosexuality directly and/or specifically, etc...?

Other than teaching/preaching general repentance from all sin in general or generally, etc...

Treeplanter said:
Jesus, today, admonishes the drowning of babies
{I don't know of a single Christian who believes that Jesus says it's fine to drown a baby}

We already talked about this with the flood in the OT already, etc...

Treeplanter said:
God, in the OT, DID sanction slavery
God, in the OT, DID command the murder of homosexuals
God, in the OT, DID drown babies

Already addressed.

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Jul 21, 2021

Treeplanter said:
God can achieve any and every purpose without causing harm in the process

Depends on which one you are talking about, etc...?

Treeplanter said:
Any and every time God chooses to cause harm it is, by definition, needless!

So says you who sets yourself up as judge, etc...?

We'll just see how that works out for you in the end, OK...

God Bless!

topher694 · Jul 21, 2021

Treeplanter said:
It's a logical fallacy to withhold trust from a being that consciously and purposefully harms us without explanation?

It's an invalid argument to withhold trust from a being that consciously and purposefully harms us without explanation?

It's logically unsound to withhold trust from a being that consciously and purposefully harms us without explanation?

It's an appeal to emotionalism to withhold trust from a being that consciously and purposefully harms us without explanation?

You just demonstrated that you don't understand what any of those things actually are.

topher694 · Jul 21, 2021

Treeplanter said:
Either you trust in Christ or you don't

If you do, then I know your views
If you don't, then just say so and I'll concede that I have no idea what you believe

Either you breath to live or you don't, you tell me. My answer is directly related to yours. What's the problem? Can you dish it out, but can't take it?

durangodawood · Jul 21, 2021

topher694 said:
I see. What if you are not capable of understanding this proof?

God would know that and adjust. At least the God of the theologians would.

durangodawood · Jul 21, 2021

durangodawood said:
God would know that and adjust. At least the God of the theologians would.

(I'm highly skeptical of theologians tho.)

2PhiloVoid · Jul 21, 2021

Treeplanter said:
To consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm upon a human being is evil and immoral

Every human being on the face of the earth, minus the odd sociopath, adheres, with allowances for minor deviation in language, to this same standard

The God of the bible, unfortunately, does NOT adhere to this standard!

Example:

God chose to consciously and purposefully drown innocent babies, alongside the wicked, during the Great Flood

{i.e. God NEEDLESSLY inflicted harm upon those babies!!}

That said, I'm perfectly willing to accept that God might have had a morally valid reason for consciously and purposefully inflicting the harm of drowning upon those innocent babies

In other words, I'm perfectly willing to accept that the drowning of those babies was, after all, not even needless to begin with...

Assuming this is true - assuming that God NEEDED, after all, to drown those babies - my question is this:

Doesn't He {God} owe it to us to offer His explanation for having inflicted what seemingly appears {to us} to be a NEEDLESS harm?

Isn't this just common sense?

If you love someone and you truly desire for this someone to fully trust in and love you in return - don't you present yourself with full transparency?

Don't you at least make an effort?

Define "effort" for your scenario here. THANKS!!!

topher694 · Jul 21, 2021

durangodawood said:
God would know that and adjust. At least the God of the theologians would.

Adjust who or what? Adjust man so he can understand, or adjust God so He is understandable?

durangodawood · Jul 21, 2021

topher694 said:
Adjust who or what? Adjust man so he can understand, or adjust God so He is understandable?

Adjust the message so a person can comprehend it.

topher694 · Jul 21, 2021

durangodawood said:
Adjust the message so a person can comprehend it.

Ummm, the entire point of my post what to say what if the person is not capable of comprehending it. God is infinite, we are not. Basically you are saying the answer to my question is, don't ask the question.

durangodawood · Jul 21, 2021

topher694 said:
Ummm, the entire point of my post what to say what if the person is not capable of comprehending it. God is infinite, we are not. Basically you are saying the answer to my question is, don't ask the question.

You spoke of a particular proof. At least thats how it read. I'm saying tailor another one to the intended audience.

But its also a fair question: what if a person is generally incapable of comprehending the divine. Well, that would be a sorry state for the person, if the stories are true about how much depends on it.

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