Transgender son

[jennimatts]

Once again, if you're going to address my post, address all of it. Keep taking snippets like you just did and I'll eventually just ignore you.

Sorry, I don't have enough time to argue every nuance of your posts.

 

[Zebra1552]

It's a systematic breakdown. Eve was a woman. The only thing that cannot be subject to change are the reproductive organs. If she was not a woman, she would not have been the mother of all man. There's no other way around that fact.

That fact doesn't mean anything as it relates to the topic, as I showed you in the post you still have yet to address.

Instead of trying every desperate way you can with your sickeningly over-liberal contempt, how about looking at the facts. Your argument is one big giant denial complex.

How about you address the argument rather than resort to name calling? For that matter, address my response to your so-called 'atom bomb'.

Never try to rub me off as prejudice. you are not going to use that ridiculous notion to strong arm the argument.

Straw man argument. I never said you're prejudiced. That's your words. I'm not strong arming anything. I'm trying to get you to respond and interact with the material I presented to further the discussion. A discussion works both ways.

With your idea, there really is no distinction between male and female. The Bible makes a distinction though, you can bet that.

For the fourth time in this thread, male and female refers to sex, not gender. We are discussing gender. You say the Bible makes a distinction between what attributes make one male and female. Where is that? Quote the Bible. Show me the evidence.

And everyone has a dominant sex, the rest is just opinion. And if you are arguing opinion, you really shouldn't be arguing at tall.

Sex has nothing to do with gender.

You have been fully refuted.

Denying the facts I presented is in no way a refutation. You still haven't addressed the post in response to your so-called atom bomb. If you've refuted me, then quote it and refer me to that post.

Get over it. I'm not going to be deal with someone spread lies about me.

I'm not spreading lies. Quit the baseless accusations.

And you better think before you post again because I will C&P all my previous arguments, consolidate them, and show you your straw man.

Go for it.

So you might as well chill with that. Nobody is going to point a finger at me.

As I detailed in my last post, you seem to contradict yourself and I'd like to know what you actually believe. You're saying one thing, then saying 'quit accusing me' when what you say is the very thing you're being accused of.

What in the Bible do you believe anyways? You seem to have a problem or counter for anything biblical. Yes, I've noticed you around these threads.

This isn't about me. If you want to know what I believe about the Bible, then you can PM me about it or start a thread in Christian apologetics asking me to respond to theological issues. Here is not the place.

Jesus did not give us the freedom to do as we please. You need to remove the flowers and butterflies from your ideals and recognize that.

And you need to drop the insults and address the argument.

 

[Zebra1552]

Sorry, I don't have enough time to argue every nuance of your posts.

You do have time to not quotemine me and make it seem like I'm saying something off topic. You stated that creation was perfect and related it to transgenders, and I then responded with the point that creation isn't perfect and is never called perfect and you responded only to one sentence out of that entire paragraph. I don't appreciate my posts getting misrepresented.

 

[Zebra1552]

In using the phrase "some random person", I'm saying any of 7 billion+ other people on the planet should not have a right to make such a life altering decision for an individual (ie. without their consent). It should be a decision for the individual and his/her doctors.





I didn't say we do (although it sometimes is not far from it). You asked...
My answer was responding to your question about treating "other things", and I discussed the very limited situations where someone might be reasonably entitled to make a life altering decision on another persons behalf. In that regard, I said "The exceptions I have in mind involve parents whose children have severe deformities or doctors that recognize a life threatening condition that urgently needs treatment." These are "other things", and not related to transgendered people.





I don't. But, if I have the opportunity to encourage them to have faith in God, I will do so, and I don't want pious individuals getting in the way just because of their preconceived notions or prejudice.

Good. Sounds like we agree on that, at least.

 

[Sum1sGruj]

That fact doesn't mean anything as it relates to the topic, as I showed you in the post you still have yet to address.

How about you address the argument rather than resort to name calling? For that matter, address my response to your so-called 'atom bomb'.

Address what? You have presented nothing but straw mans and 'prove its'.

Straw man argument. I never said you're prejudiced. That's your words. I'm not strong arming anything. I'm trying to get you to respond and interact with the material I presented to further the discussion. A discussion works both ways.

You are the straw man . Seriously, I do not understand some posters around this site.
You said 'affront to transgenders'. Those were your words.
Now, if you could possibly find some invisible idea that I am offending transgenders, what makes you think I do not see clear as day what that statement is? Flip flop argument., that is the quote above.

For the fourth time in this thread, male and female refers to sex, not gender. We are discussing gender. You say the Bible makes a distinction between what attributes make one male and female. Where is that? Quote the Bible. Show me the evidence.

And the Bible states that your gender and sex is to be the same. I do not like these word games. If you have male and female assets, then you are a transgender. If you are a transgender by the literal definition of gender, then you are.., get ready.....

HOMOSEXUAL. Now this is not to be discussed among these forums. It's people such as you who say those things, with their technicalities and deceptive ways to be difficult and infuriating all the same.
But if you have actually been arguing this to hide the fact that I pretty much atom bombed the thread, then way to go., you have officially broken the rules, denied the Bible, and defeated yourself all at the same time.

Denying the facts I presented is in no way a refutation. You still haven't addressed the post in response to your so-called atom bomb. If you've refuted me, then quote it and refer me to that post.

As shown, it was quite the Little Man. Instead of me quoting it, why don't you do the adult thing and make use of that mouse instead of demanding everybody to think and do for you.
Obviously, if I have to show you what constitutes all these things in the Bible, there are only two possibilities:
One, you have little to know understanding of much of the Bible. Or two, you are just being difficult and trying to get others to fly around the loop because of your apparent disrespect for others intelligence.

Your battle was lost before it even began. Be done with it.

 

[Zebra1552]

Address what? You have presented nothing but straw mans and 'prove its'.

I don't buy baseless accusations. Until you have evidence that I have created a straw man argument, your claim is worthless.

You are the straw man . Seriously, I do not understand some posters around this site.
You said 'affront to transgenders'. Those were your words.
Now, if you could possibly find some invisible idea that I am offending transgenders, what makes you think I do not see clear as day what that statement is? Flip flop argument., that is the quote above.

It's not a flip flop argument, it's saying that your words- while you deny being offensive- are offensive. I've explained how.

And the Bible states that your gender and sex is to be the same.

Where?

I do not like these word games.

Then provide evidence for your statements and we can cut the charade.

If you have male and female assets, then you are a transgender. If you are a transgender by the literal definition of gender, then you are.., get ready.....

Then I guess I'm transgender.

HOMOSEXUAL. Now this is not to be discussed among these forums. It's people such as you who say those things, with their technicalities and deceptive ways to be difficult and infuriating all the same.

Cut the insults.

But if you have actually been arguing this to hide the fact that I pretty much atom bombed the thread, then way to go., you have officially broken the rules, denied the Bible, and defeated yourself all at the same time.

You haven't. You still haven't replied to my reply. You've patently denied all of my arguments, and I have responded to each and every one of yours that has been directed at me and even some not directed at me. Why should I have any concern for your false bravado?

As shown, it was quite the Little Man. Instead of me quoting it, why don't you do the adult thing and make use of that mouse instead of demanding everybody to think and do for you.

As shown, you have done nothing to respond to my response to your so-called atom bomb. I've analyzed it and refuted it. You've not responded to that refutation.

Obviously, if I have to show you what constitutes all these things in the Bible, there are only two possibilities:
One, you have little to know understanding of much of the Bible. Or two, you are just being difficult and trying to get others to fly around the loop because of your apparent disrespect for others intelligence.

Your battle was lost before it even began. Be done with it.

You haven't quoted the Bible. Why should I give you any credit for basically declaring yourself the victor and ignoring anything I have to say?

Since you can't respond to my points, this discussion with you is over. I don't appreciate being insulted, misrepresented, and belittled.

 

[jennimatts]

You know, this is the third time I have been assumed/accused to be talking down to transgenders. It's this sort of vain 'automatic' defense that keeps the ball rolling on these things.

It's not my intention to come across as angry and accusatory. And, I apologize if I'm a bit dense when it comes to understanding your point of view. I also apologize if I unfairly characterized your statements.

The thing is, I'm a Christian woman and a transsexual. I had GID all my life, but have now been post op for a dozen years. As a woman I have been very greatly blessed by God. Then you come along and say...

Males who transcend into womanly appearance never develop wombs, nor do they develop female reproductive organs.
Therefore, they are men.

You also said...

...if a transgendered person wants to be Christian, they have to be prepared to face the truth...

... which according to you is that I'm a man.

I'm not a man, and never really was. Can you see why we don't see eye to eye?

Before science was aware of genetics, we didn't understand that there was more to gender than just the genitalia and reproductive organs. It was like you stated "If you have a womb, you are a woman".

Then science discovered Chromosomes. You stated that "If the[re] is a 'Y' somewhere in your chromosome, you are a male." When I pointed out that the DNA can be opposite of an individuals anatomical gender as I mentioned regarding XY females, you retreated to gender being determined by a "dominant reproductive organ", disregarding the genetic reversal as a special exception that doesn't mean anything.

Medical science now realizes that there is much more to gender than anatomy and chromosomes, and Gender Identity Disorder describes a reversal of the normal match between anatomy (or, a "dominant reproductive organ") and Gender Identity.

You may think Gender Identity is just an opinion, but I say you are very blessed to have each of these aspects of your gender match. You're free to go about life confident in your gender.

Some of us are blessed as amber was saying by having mixed aspects of gender, and we have to make of it the best that we can. It may not be perfect, but medical science has given us the ability to change our anatomy to match our Gender Identity, allowing us to experience a unity between these.

 

[jennimatts]

...special exception that doesn't mean anything.

Interesting that this is essentially the same thought that many hold regarding women in ministry. Ignoring a variety of biblical examples of women in ministry and leadership in the early church, they conclude that only men can be ordained.

Why must everyone automatically reject an idea simply because it challenges other ideas?

 

[Sum1sGruj]

I don't buy baseless accusations. Until you have evidence that I have created a straw man argument, your claim is worthless.

My claim is correct. Recently, there have been a few posters here and there coming out of the woodwork who think they have some right to call someones claims worthless just because of their apparent lack of knowledge.
It doesn't even make sense. I could understand if it was actually something elegant that required explanation, but what you are doing., do not think it doesn't fully equate to being insulting. You are an adult, are you not? You are capable of doing something besides closing your eyes, plugging your ears, and jumping up and down saying 'prove it' whenever the whole world does not agree with your obviously biased ideas right?

It's not a flip flop argument, it's saying that your words- while you deny being offensive- are offensive. I've explained how.

No you didn't, you simply 'said so' in hopes that others who agree with your ideas will jump in. A chump, in other words. You should take off that halo, as you falsely attacked me and then tried to snake it off after the fact.

Then provide evidence for your statements and we can cut the charade.

Deuteronomy 22:5
A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.

That means, being transgender is okay, acting upon it how you please is not. Since this topic is already borderline, I can't really post the verse that goes on further with it.

It is not Christian to judge anybody. It is something that has nothing to with me, so you are contending with the wrong being.

Then I guess I'm transgender.

That would explain a lot if true.

You haven't. You still haven't replied to my reply. You've patently denied all of my arguments, and I have responded to each and every one of yours that has been directed at me and even some not directed at me. Why should I have any concern for your false bravado?

What am I supposed to reply to? Did you type it in invisible text? Should I highlight over your posts and find these extraordinary replies? What you have said carries no weight.

You haven't quoted the Bible. Why should I give you any credit for basically declaring yourself the victor and ignoring anything I have to say?

Since you can't respond to my points, this discussion with you is over. I don't appreciate being insulted, misrepresented, and belittled.

Whatever. You were the one attacking and misrepresenting me. You can sit there an accuse me for what you have been doing this whole time, I don't really care. Just know that if you want people to think you have a brain, maybe you should chill with the whole 'prove it' crap. It makes one wonder if you have even picked up a Bible.

Goodbye

 

[Zebra1552]

Until you have evidence to support your wild accusations, all you've got is empty bravado and zero respect from me or anyone else here. You expect us to take you seriously while you rip anyone who asks you for evidence, and only then providing a single out-of-context verse from the OT to say that crossdressing isn't okay. That was a cultural law, not a moral law, and it was something that other cultures did as part of their religious practices. Unless you have another verse that actually addresses gender and acknowledges the difference between sex and gender, your 'evidence' doesn't prove anything. Insulting my intelligence to cover up for the fact that you never addressed this:

You tell Jase what a Christian should believe in one sentence, and prior to that sentence you spend an entire paragraph belittling him and insulting him? Have you never read John's words in 1 John 1-2 about loving your brother?


I'd love to see you try.

Prove it. I don't trust etymology claims by some random guy on the internets.


Incorrect. The first woman is called 'eve' which means 'living'.

Gen 3:20 The man named his wife Eve, because she was the mother of all living.

Eve is not called woman, a woman is called eve.


So what? Again, that is talking about sex, not gender. I addressed this earlier.

Sex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gender - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Do you have any evidence to support this?


A transgender is determined by what gender attributes they choose to take on and what gender they identify as.


Gender is based on opinion and if you think a Christian should reject transgendered people, you are not living as Christ called you to live and you are demanding that those who follow Christ ignore His teachings. Furthermore, you have not presented any evidence that a Christian should believe a certain way except to make unsupported claims to that effect. Until you have some evidence, say, a Bible verse to back you up, your claims are worthless.


That may be you playing the game, but the game's far from over.

...is not really that impressive.

 

[SnowyMacie]

Deuteronomy 22:5
A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.

I love when people pull the Deuteronomy 22:5 argument. According to that, a woman can never wear pants, a t-shirt, shorts, ecetera. They should have to wear dresses all of the time. Guess God finds 99% of women detestable.

 

[brightmorningstar]

I love when people pull the Deuteronomy 22:5 argument. According to that, a woman can never wear pants, a t-shirt, shorts, ecetera. They should have to wear dresses all of the time. Guess God finds 99% of women detestable.

providing they are women, which is more to the point of the issue.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

I haven't read the entire thread so perhaps this has been brought up already. I'll ask anyway -
What makes people think they're the "wrong" gender?

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

I haven't read the entire thread so perhaps this has been brought up already. I'll ask anyway -
What makes people think they're the "wrong" gender?

Not a problem. It is hard to explain, best I have heard and it still sounds kinda goofy, imagine waking up in the opposite sexed body. Except we didnt just wake up we had to come to grips with it. Our bodies just didn't match the brains we have. Jenni might be able to give a different take on it.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Not a problem. It is hard to explain, best I have heard and it still sounds kinda goofy, imagine waking up in the opposite sexed body. Except we didnt just wake up we had to come to grips with it. Our bodies just didn't match the brains we have. Jenni might be able to give a different take on it.

Ok, I cant imagine that, how does that work?

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Not a problem. It is hard to explain, best I have heard and it still sounds kinda goofy, imagine waking up in the opposite sexed body. Except we didnt just wake up we had to come to grips with it. Our bodies just didn't match the brains we have. Jenni might be able to give a different take on it.

I'll need a more elaborate answer than that I'm afraid.

 

[Sum1sGruj]

Well I guess the bibleman 2 electric boogaloo gives up. Fell on the OT argument. Game over man, game over.

Corinthians 6:9-11
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Romans 1:25-27
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-- who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Obviously, God's command still stands as noted in Deuteronomy.

Matthew 7:1-5
Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

I'll need a more elaborate answer than that I'm afraid.

There are a bevy of sites you can use tgboards, lauras playground, tsroadmaps etc etc etc. All giving their take on this issue. Enjoy

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

Corinthians 6:9-11
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Romans 1:25-27
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-- who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Obviously, God's command still stands as noted in Deuteronomy.

Matthew 7:1-5
Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Cool story bro.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

There are a bevy of sites you can use tgboards, lauras playground, tsroadmaps etc etc etc. All giving their take on this issue. Enjoy

Oh come on, you must have some kind of answer. What makes you say "Our bodies just didn't match the brains we have"?