Transgender Activists Hold Irreverent Funeral for Atheist Prostitute at St. Patrick’s Cathedral

[RileyG]

It's kind of disgusting to give a man pretending to be a woman a Christian funeral in the first place. Was there no Episcopalian or Unitarian Universalist Church they could have gone to in order to receive an appropriate burial? Instead they have to mock Catholicism?

Exactly!

 

[ThatRobGuy]

This is the Roman Catholic Church, remember. The organisation that honoured mass murderer and anti-semite General Franco with a mass as well as supervising the burial in a chapel specially built for him.

Gentili's funeral is insignificant beside that.

I don't know if actions conducted nearly 50 years ago by a diocese in Spain (under very different circumstances) necessarily limits the US diocese present day, does it? (As in "Your organization did this bad thing 50 years ago, therefore, people can do whatever they want to you now, and you have no right to complain")

That seems like it would be invoking the flip side of the coin that some conservatives will use to malign planned parenthood by pointing out their past connection with Margaret Sanger.

Much like eugenics is no longer an attribute of Planned Parenthood, antisemitism isn't a modern staple of the Catholic church.

But even if it were, it doesn't refute the original premise which is that an entity (regardless of whether or not we think that entities values are good) being duped into hosting an event honoring a person who glorified values that ran against their own, isn't an up & up move.


Like with my example before about animals rights and trophy hunters...

I think PETA is a terrible organization (they've basically bankrolled the legal fees of bad actors who firebomb medical research facilities, and throw buckets of fake blood on people), but if a hunters group sneakily tricked them into leasing out their facilities for a hunters award ceremony, I would still say the hunters were in the wrong (despite the fact that I have a bigger moral problem with PETAs ideology than I do hunting)

 

[DaisyDay]

When someone shows up in the thong...

Did anyone actually show up in a thong in the middle of winter? I watched the YouTube video of the funeral, but most people were in black and not one was in a thong (unless it was underneath their clothes, in which case, whose business it it).

yeah, it can be a problem with the Church. plus: The funeral of a renowned transgender activist in a New York cathedral elicited a denunciation of the event by a senior church official, who called the mass a scandal within one of the preeminent houses of worship in U.S. Catholicism. NY Archdiocese denounces transgender activist's funeral, holds Mass of Reparation

Okay.

 

[Belk]

Would an atheist want their funeral to be in a Church?

Depends on the atheist. We have not perfected our hive mind yet.

 

[BPPLEE]

Depends on the atheist. We have not perfected our hive mind yet.

I just wondered. It seemed disrespectful

 

[Belk]

I just wondered. It seemed disrespectful

For some it might be disrespectful. For some it might be profoundly respectful. I know back when I joined there were some atheists here who expressed their great respect for the church community they grew up in.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Did anyone actually show up in a thong in the middle of winter? I watched the YouTube video of the funeral, but most people were in black and not one was in a thong (unless it was underneath their clothes, in which case, whose business it it).

Many Pay Tribute to Trans Activist Cecilia Gentili

Gentili was a pillar in New York for her activism.

time.com

Scroll down a little on the page...

 

[BPPLEE]

Many Pay Tribute to Trans Activist Cecilia Gentili

Gentili was a pillar in New York for her activism.

time.com

Scroll down a little on the page...

Nothing like showing your ,,, at a funeral

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Nothing like showing your ,,, at a funeral

That fact that someone's wearing that in February in NY leads me to believe the whole point was to be provocative.

At least this guy opted to go with a "Gay version of Lemmy from Motorhead" look instead of exposed cheeks...

 

[ThatRobGuy]

For some it might be disrespectful. For some it might be profoundly respectful. I know back when I joined there were some atheists here who expressed their great respect for the church community they grew up in.

I'm skeptical of the notion that this was meant to be received as some sort of showing of mutual respect.

Seems more like it's a "we'll honor the memory of the person who liked to be confrontational toward the religious right, by tricking church officials into hosting the ceremony"

To me, this feels more like the tone of when they got Stephen Colbert in to do the White House correspondence dinner to take jabs at Bush (because the people in Bush's team were asleep at the wheel and didn't realize that Colbert's schtick on tv at the time was parodying conservatism and he wasn't actually a conservative), and didn't realize their blunder until it was too late.

 

[Whyayeman]

From the article:

“Cecilia died with Christ,” says Father Edward Dougherty

I notice that the cathedral was packed with people. Isn't that what the churches strive for?

I remember from childhood a Methodist church I passed on my way to school had one of those street hoardings with exhortations to the public. Once the sign read 'This is a church for sinners. Why not join us?' Within a week it was replaced because the congregation objected so strongly. It was reported in the local press.

This thread reminded me of it.

 

[Belk]

I'm skeptical of the notion that this was meant to be received as some sort of showing of mutual respect.

Seems more like it's a "we'll honor the memory of the person who liked to be confrontational toward the religious right, by tricking church officials into hosting the ceremony"

To me, this feels more like the tone of when they got Stephen Colbert in to do the White House correspondence dinner to take jabs at Bush (because the people in Bush's team were asleep at the wheel and didn't realize that Colbert's schtick on tv at the time was parodying conservatism and he wasn't actually a conservative), and didn't realize their blunder until it was too late.

View attachment 343060

Not speaking of this case but atheists in general. I agree that this instance looks to be on the shady side.

 

[Dan1988]

https://www.dailysignal.com/2024/02...ral-atheist-prostitute-st-patricks-cathedral/

The Archdiocese of New York did not immediately respond to a request for comment from The Daily Signal as to why St. Patrick’s Cathedral hosted the funeral, “an event with no likely precedent in Catholic history,” as The New York Times described it. The cathedral referred The Daily Signal to the archdiocese.
After publication, the archdiocese released a statement condemning the funeral and announcing priests had performed a Mass of Reparation.
“That St. Patrick’s Cathedral would host the funeral for a high-profile transgender activist who was well known for her advocacy on behalf of sex workers, transgender people, and people living with HIV might come as a surprise to some,” The New York Times reported. The funeral appears to have been widely attended by media from top U.S. publications.
One of the organizers of the funeral said that St. Patrick’s Cathedral was not told that Gentili identified as a transgender woman. Gentili is also revered by those who identify as LGBTQ as a “transgender icon” and advocate.
“I kind of kept it under wraps,” organizer Ceyenne Doroshow, a man who identifies as a woman, told the Times, explaining that St. Patrick’s Cathedral is “an icon, just like her.”
The Rev. Fr. Edward Dougherty led the service, according to Time magazine, telling the funeral attendees: “Cecilia died with Christ.”

Pope Francis is a great supporter of the LGBTQ community. He gave them his blessing and welcomes them to participate Roman Catholic Rituals.
The Roman Catholic Church is a progressive Church, She continues to change with the times and cultural trends.
I don't see what all the fuss is about. Roman Catholics embrace everyone, regardless of their religion or sexual preference or identity.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Not speaking of this case but atheists in general. I agree that this instance looks to be on the shady side.

Atheists, in general, I'd agree...

Every wedding I've ever been to (or been in -- as in part of the wedding party, I'm not married) has been in a church, as has every funeral. (one that was actually in a Hindu temple, I got to wear some interesting garb for that one)

But I typically try to respect the fact that "I'm in their house" and don't deliberately go out of my way to buck their agreed upon "social norms" while I'm there.

Sort of like I do when my vegan cousin invites people over for a social gathering at her place (with many of her friends who are of the same ilk)...that's not my preferred lifestyle choice, but if I decide to go, I'll converse, eat some black bean dip and pasta, and not go out of my way to talk about the "amazing steak I had at Flemings" or wear my Ron Swanson shirt that has a picture of a salad that says "the food that my food eats" when I show up lol.

 

[Dan1988]

I don't know if actions conducted nearly 50 years ago by a diocese in Spain (under very different circumstances) necessarily limits the US diocese present day, does it? (As in "Your organization did this bad thing 50 years ago, therefore, people can do whatever they want to you now, and you have no right to complain")

That seems like it would be invoking the flip side of the coin that some conservatives will use to malign planned parenthood by pointing out their past connection with Margaret Sanger.

Much like eugenics is no longer an attribute of Planned Parenthood, antisemitism isn't a modern staple of the Catholic church.

But even if it were, it doesn't refute the original premise which is that an entity (regardless of whether or not we think that entities values are good) being duped into hosting an event honoring a person who glorified values that ran against their own, isn't an up & up move.


Like with my example before about animals rights and trophy hunters...

I think PETA is a terrible organization (they've basically bankrolled the legal fees of bad actors who firebomb medical research facilities, and throw buckets of fake blood on people), but if a hunters group sneakily tricked them into leasing out their facilities for a hunters award ceremony, I would still say the hunters were in the wrong (despite the fact that I have a bigger moral problem with PETAs ideology than I do hunting)

We need to consider the fact that Pope Francis is the Head of the Roman Catholic Church. He is the only one who decides what's acceptable and what's not.
He has come out and blessed same sex unions and the LGBTQ people and welcomed them to attend the mass and whatever other activates in the Church.
The Roman Catholic Church is constantly changing, so you're right. Today it is nothing like it was 50 years ago, it bares no resemblance to how it was back in those old days.
Most Churches are evolving and changing their values. Who knows, in 50 years time the Pope might bless Pedophiles and inappropriate behavior with animals, we just don't know how the Church will evolve

 

[ThatRobGuy]

From the article:

“Cecilia died with Christ,” says Father Edward Dougherty

I notice that the cathedral was packed with people. Isn't that what the churches strive for?

I remember from childhood a Methodist church I passed on my way to school had one of those street hoardings with exhortations to the public. Once the sign read 'This is a church for sinners. Why not join us?' Within a week it was replaced because the congregation objected so strongly. It was reported in the local press.

This thread reminded me of it.

I think the key distinction is in the details...

Sending out a message to the world of "hey, we know everyone makes mistakes, but we're willing to bring you in to see if our ideology is something that works for you" is very different than a bunch of people (who I think we can safely assume) have no interest in adopting Catholicism showing up to a Catholic church with exposed butt cheeks, dressed in drag, to honor a person who actively protested against the religion in question.

This is somewhat the equivalent of if the Mormon church was "misled by omission" into hosting a funeral for one of the writers for the Trey Parker play "The book of Mormon" (that famously made fun of Mormons).


While I'm an atheist, I have no misconceptions about what religion is, It's an ideology... and the reality is that with any ideology, there's a buy-in and certain things you have to adopt (and certain things you have to give up) in order to be a member of the various faith groups. It would be a position of arrogance for me to say "I want to join the Jewish faith, but I really like bacon and cheeseburgers, so they have to get rid of those Kosher rules to accommodate me"...and if they refuse, paint myself to be the victim with some sob story about "well, I tried to join them, but they just didn't want me, they're just not very accepting" (when the reality is, they would accept me if I agreed to follow their agreed upon protocol)

If everyone got to make their own version of every religion, the whole thing wouldn't have much meaning by the time everyone got done creating their exemptions and carve-outs for the rules they didn't like.

Reminds me of the Jim Gaffigan joke "I'm a vegan, but not a strict vegan...I do eat chicken, pork, and beef...but not fish because that's cruel"

Certain religions are pretty clear about their positions on matters involving LGBTQ... the onus isn't on the established religions to change their perception of their holy book or change thousands-year-old traditions to create carve-outs to be more accepting, the onus is on people to create an ideological group of their own and beat them in the marketplace of ideas.

 

[Chrystal-J]

Did anyone actually show up in a thong in the middle of winter? I watched the YouTube video of the funeral, but most people were in black and not one was in a thong (unless it was underneath their clothes, in which case, whose business it it).

I'm not gonna repost the pic, but in one of Michie's posts, there is a guy in a thong entering the church. (Or see post #48).

 

[Whyayeman]

Sending out a message to the world of "hey, we know everyone makes mistakes, but we're willing to bring you in to see if our ideology is something that works for you" is very different than a bunch of people (who I think we can safely assume) have no interest in adopting Catholicism showing up to a Catholic church with exposed butt cheeks, dressed in drag, to honor a person who actively protested against the religion in question.

I share your sense of respect for religions and their adherents. The officiating priest said 'Cecilia died in Christ'. This suggests that there was a dying conversion or confession, in which case the high indignation expressed in the media ans even here on CF is misplaced. Such events are privileged, between penitent and priest and should be respected.

The unconventional dress may be disrespectful of other people in the congregation but funerals are generally public occasions. Friends and family have some claim to respect as well. (It appears the Pope has come to this view as well.)

 

[durangodawood]

I wonder if the church performed a Mass of Reparation at each church where the child abusive priests the institution tolerated for decades served?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I share your sense of respect for religions and their adherents. The officiating priest said 'Cecilia died in Christ'. This suggests that there was a dying conversion or confession, in which case the high indignation expressed in the media ans even here on CF is misplaced. Such events are privileged, between penitent and priest and should be respected.

The unconventional dress may be disrespectful of other people in the congregation but funerals are generally public occasions. Friends and family have some claim to respect as well. (It appears the Pope has come to this view as well.)

Actually, it's not so much a "respect for religion" as much as it is a "respect for peoples' abilities to make their own rules for their own house"

Doesn't have to be a religion...

That's why I used to the PETA example earlier. I have little to no respect for PETA, their ideology, nor their methods. However, if a group suckered them into hosting an event at their facilities and a bunch of hunters showed up for it, I would say the hunters are in the wrong.


The offense wasn't anything that Cecilia did, it was the organizers of the event (who even stated that they purposely kept some details hidden in order to be able to secure the venue), and the selection of venue was no happy accident, it was one belonging to a denomination that definitely disapproves of some of the things they advocate for.

NYC has two large Unitarian Churches and 4 very nice (large and historic) Episcopalian Churches (both of which are in alignment with them on most LGBTQ issues and less than 2 miles from the venue they did select)...that would've resulted in zero conflict... they specifically chose the Catholic one for a reason.