Transaltions

[wildboar]

Oh, the NIV is certainly a genuine translation. That passage is a tricky one, but I think the NIV is actually truer to the Greek (βιάζεται, middle voice) than the NASB, which follows the older KJV. See Thayer's lexicon on the word, for example.

A lot of the debate on the verse centers around whether to take the word as a middle or a passive. I'm inclined to understand it as a middle as the NIV does. A lot has to do with what you believe the passage is saying in the context. But I think the words it uses to translate the word itself are kind of weak. In Greek the word has a very negative connotation.

Probably a better translation than either would be:

Matthew 11:12 "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the reign of heaven has been coming violently, and the violent take it by force."

 

[Radagast]

I'm inclined to understand it as a middle as the NIV does.

I agree.

In Greek the word has a very negative connotation.

In the passive, perhaps. But in the middle? My lexicons don't support that. I would think a strong word, but not a negative one. In classical Greek it can mean "argue strongly," "carry by force," or "persist."

Probably a better translation than either would be:

Matthew 11:12 "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the reign of heaven has been coming violently, and the violent take it by force."

But what does that mean, exactly?

 

[ChristianSoldier85]

Matthew 11:12 "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the reign of heaven has been coming violently, and the violent take it by force."

OOPS! Now that is a serious infraction, do you know there is a two Kingdoms right?

The Kingdom in Heaven where no man has ascended, and the Kingdom of Heaven which is the Kingdom Jesus preached about through parables revealing its truths pointing towards the Gospel, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and points to Jesus' reign as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. That is why Jesus said the Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand, both in a present and future tense, He is El Shaddai, Yeshua whom revealed himself to Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Gideon, etc. Ultimately the Kingdom of Heaven is Jesus himself.

These passages should never NEVER EVER read "Reign of Heaven" but rather always "Kingdom of Heaven".

Like I said I have a great great aversion to the NIV and dynamic equivalents and paraphrases. And this has confirmed by my fears.

 

[ChristianSoldier85]

I agree.



In the passive, perhaps. But in the middle? My lexicons don't support that. I would think a strong word, but not a negative one. In classical Greek it can mean "argue strongly," "carry by force," or "persist."



But what does that mean, exactly?

It means basically referring to the wickedness of the present world co-residing with the Kingdom of Heaven and caused the death of John the Baptist. "Take it by force" probably pointing forward to Jesus' trial and death. And the Apostles and the Church after that on til the Second Coming.

But you can look back in history back into the Old Testament, how many prophets were slain delivering the Word of God.

 

[Radagast]

Like I said I have a great great aversion to the NIV and dynamic equivalents and paraphrases. And this has confirmed by my fears.

That wasn't the NIV, that was wildboar's personal translation. The NIV has: From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it.

 

[Radagast]

But you can look back in history back into the Old Testament, how many prophets were slain delivering the Word of God.

But surely it can't mean that, because it explicitly refers to "the days of John the Baptist" until the time Jesus is speaking. And the Kingdom "coming violently" makes no sense either.

But "forcefully advancing" makes sense as referring to the irresistible growth of the Kingdom, and "forceful men lay hold of it" would then be a call to be whole-hearted. And, as I said before, I think "forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it" is truer to the Greek.

 

[ChristianSoldier85]

But surely it can't mean that, because it explicitly refers to "the days of John the Baptist" until the time Jesus is speaking.

No, I meant that by history serves up perfect examples of peoples rejections of truth and the violent upheavals that it can incur.

 

[ChristianSoldier85]

But surely it can't mean that, because it explicitly refers to "the days of John the Baptist" until the time Jesus is speaking. And the Kingdom "coming violently" makes no sense either.

But "forcefully advancing" makes sense as referring to the irresistible growth of the Kingdom, and "forceful men lay hold of it" would then be a call to be whole-hearted. And, as I said before, I think "forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it" is truer to the Greek.

Well, I am going to look further into this, here is the verse from the KJV

And from the days of John the Baptist until now the Kingdom of Heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

 

[Radagast]

No, I meant that by history serves up perfect examples of peoples rejections of truth and the violent upheavals that it can incur.

True, but when Jesus says "from the days of John the Baptist until now" He must be talking about things that happened during that (fairly short) period of time.

 

[ChristianSoldier85]

True, but when Jesus says "from the days of John the Baptist until now" He must be talking about things that happened during that (fairly short) period of time.

I just went over to E-Sword, the Murdock, Young's Literal Translation, KJV2000, LITV, MKJV, English Standard Version, Darby, EMTV, and the Douay-Rheims all say the violent/violence.

And remember he is speaking about John the Baptist in the previous verses, so obviously Jesus is speaking about the death of John the Baptist and his own death at Calvary.

The dynamic equivalence of the NIV suffered a boo-boo.

 

[Radagast]

I just went over to E-Sword, the Murdock, Young's Literal Translation, KJV2000, LITV, MKJV, English Standard Version, Darby, EMTV, and the Douay-Rheims all say the violent/violence.

And remember he is speaking about John the Baptist in the previous verses, so obviously Jesus is speaking about the death of John the Baptist and his own death at Calvary.

But if Jesus was looking forward to Calvary, He wouldn't have said "until now" (ἕως ἄρτ&#953, He would have said "from now on."

And the previous two verses "This is the one about whom it is written: 'I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.' I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." (which talks about the good job John has done) fits better with "the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing."

And, as I said, βιάζεται is in the middle indicative, which makes "forcefully advancing" a better translation.

Another possible translation is the NCV: Since the time John the Baptist came until now, the kingdom of heaven has been going forward in strength, and people have been trying to take it by force, which renders ἁρπάζουσιν as "trying to take it by force," but I think the NIV is closer to the Greek than this, or any of the other translations. Let me say that again: I think the NIV is more literally correct than any other translation for this verse:

ἀπὸ δὲ (from) τῶν ἡμερῶν (the days of) Ἰωάννου (John) τοῦ βαπτιστοῦ (the Baptist) ἕως (until) ἄρτι (now) ἡ βασιλεία (the kingdom) τῶν οὐρανῶν (of heaven) βιάζεται (has been forcefully advancing) καὶ (and) βιασταὶ (forceful men) ἁρπάζουσιν (lay hold of, or are laying hold of) αὐτήν (it).

The 1988 Dutch translation Het Boek has "Sinds de dag dat Johannes de Doper zijn werk begon tot nu toe proberen talloze mensen het Koninkrijk van de hemelen binnen te dringen." which gets the same dynamic idea as the NIV, but is less literal, because it mixes the two parts of the sentence.

The 1999 French translation La Bible du Semeur reads the same as the NIV, but has the older KJV-style reading in a footnote.

 

[ChristianSoldier85]

But if Jesus was looking forward to Calvary, He wouldn't have said "until now" (ἕως ἄρτ&#953, He would have said "from now on."

And the previous two verses "This is the one about whom it is written: 'I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.' I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." (which talks about the good job John has done) fits better with "the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing."

And, as I said, βιάζεται is in the middle indicative, which makes "forcefully advancing" a better translation.

Another possible translation is the NCV: Since the time John the Baptist came until now, the kingdom of heaven has been going forward in strength, and people have been trying to take it by force, which renders ἁρπάζουσιν as "trying to take it by force," but I think the NIV is closer to the Greek than this, or any of the other translations. Let me say that again: I think the NIV is more literally correct than any other translation for this verse.

The 1988 Dutch translation Het Boek has "Sinds de dag dat Johannes de Doper zijn werk begon tot nu toe proberen talloze mensen het Koninkrijk van de hemelen binnen te dringen." which gets the same dynamic idea as the NIV, but is less literal, because it mixes the two parts of the sentence.

The 1999 French translation La Bible du Semeur reads the same as the NIV, but has the older KJV-style reading in a footnote.

Wait read it in context:

Matthew 11:7-19 (King James Version)


7And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
9But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
10For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
11Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force .
13For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
16But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
17And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

 

[Radagast]

Wait read it in context:

The context is about how the Kingdom of Heaven is advancing.

The older translations are, unfortunately, too much influenced by the Latin Vulgate, rather than the original Greek.

 

[ChristianSoldier85]

The context is about how the Kingdom of Heaven is advancing.

The older translations are, unfortunately, too much influenced by the Latin Vulgate, rather than the original Greek.

I went out and crossed examined myself through the net, there are different ways people accept this verse, first of all, the imprisoned John the Baptist sent two disciples, and their question is difficult to interpret are they relaying an inquiry directly from John or are basically asking for "directions".

Jesus tells to deliver a message of Kingdom of Heaven's evident work. And goes on to relay to the multitudes that John was a genuine prophet and a genuine man of God.

Though Jesus says a believer is in greater position than John the Baptist because he/she is going to have the Blood of Christ.

Now onto the infamous Matthew 11:12 verse, I always thought it was in reference to the Kingdom of Heaven battling the Kingdom of Darkness, and "taken by force" is the spiritual and physical warfare those representing the Kingdom of Heaven, they are going to "taken" by every conceivable form of spiritual warfare and are going to be persecuted for Christ's sake in every conceivable form of physical warfare. Thus a foreshadow of both John and Jesus, and the Apostles and the Church after them. The Kingdom of Darkness always goes on the offensive and assails believers on all conceiveable sides.

However, this verse can also mean the saved grabbing the hold of salvation and donning the armor of God and actively invading conquering the Kingdom of Darkness. The interpretation you brought forth.

Either is a valid and supported by other scripture, such as Matthew 16:18 -- 2 Corinthians 10:4-5, Matthew 10:34.

 

[wildboar]

In the passive, perhaps. But in the middle? My lexicons don't support that. I would think a strong word, but not a negative one. In classical Greek it can mean "argue strongly," "carry by force," or "persist."

That's debateable. Unfortunately I don't have my lexicons right in front of me right now but I believe BDAG did give the option of understanding it negatively and had a fuller discussion. The ISBE also has an ineteresting article that deals with this passage: http://books.google.com/books?id=r7...pK2jBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

Jesus was being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come--the Pharisees understood this as an earthly kingdom. Reign and kingdom are synonymous but reign focuses on the power while kingdom often evokes a place. So the reign of heaven was not entirely a future place of reign that was coming violently even as Jesus spoke the words and violent took it by force. The violent were those "sinners" that nobody expected to be the first to enter the kingdom who realized their own sinfulness and were doing whatever they could to get in.

 

[Poctim]

Been looking over the OP for best translation, and I've been looking into this myself recently.

I found out that some translations will eliminate certain verses if they aren't part of every manuscript, specific verses are Mark 9:29 and Matthew 17:21 that pertain to fasting. They cut out the fasting part.

I've loved the Amplified Bible as it gives a very detailed description of most words to reduce misinterpretations and included everything. Some other good ones are the Young's Literal Translation, from my research, and KJV.

Way I figure is that if verses are just totally eliminated, there may be more missing. NASB was good up until the revised 1995 version, then they cut out some of it. NIV usually has it in the footnotes at least, and so do many other translations.

Those are just my thoughts

 

[wildboar]

I found out that some translations will eliminate certain verses if they aren't part of every manuscript, specific verses are Mark 9:29 and Matthew 17:21 that pertain to fasting. They cut out the fasting part.

No translation is going to have everything that is found in every manuscript. I accept the examples you give as authoritative but people pick what they believe to be the most reliable. Readings such as that found in 1 John 5:7 should be removed because of their lack of manuscript support in the manuscripts preserved by the church. It's not just a case of translators deciding to leave things out. The NASB even prior to 1995 followed the shorter Alexandrian text.

 

[Radagast]

The ISBE also has an ineteresting article that deals with this passage: http://books.google.com/books?id=r7...pK2jBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

That book expresses what I was trying to get at, but says it much better.

Readings such as that found in 1 John 5:7 should be removed because of their lack of manuscript support in the manuscripts preserved by the church.

Most modern translations use brackets or a footnote rather than deleting things completely. The NIV on 1 John 5:7-8 has:

7 For there are three that testify: 8 the* Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

* Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)

 

[SummaScriptura]

My bible is falling apart, so I need to buy a new Bible as their are many translations and versions, which is the best. Ideally I like an English literal translation from original texts and where is good place to buy online.

Thanks in advance.

If you're attached to your current Bible, you should consider having it rebound. I just rebound a Bible for $35, it looks great. That was hardbound though. I'm only suggesting it as many people have notes and such in their Bibles.

 

[wildboar]

BDAG is considered by most to be the most authoritative Greek-English lexicon. Here is the entry:

[BDAG] bia,zw
• bia,zw (Hom.+) nearly always as a mid. dep. bia,zomai; aor. mid. evbiasa,mhn, pass. 2 sg. evbia,sqhj Sir 31:21. Apart fr. Dg. 7:4; 10:15 most of this entry concerns probabilities relating to b. in Mt 11:12 and par. Lk 16:16. The principal semantic problem is whether b. is used negatively (‘in malam partem’) or positively (‘in bonam partem’), a problem compounded by the question of the function of these vss. in their literary context. In Gk. lit. b. is most often used in the unfavorable sense of attack or forcible constraint (s. L-S-J-M).

1. to inflict violence on, dominate, constrain w. acc. (Herodas 2, 71; Menand., Dyscolus 253 [opp. pei,qein use of persuasion]; 371; Appian, Bell. Civ. 5, 35 §139; PAmh 35, 17 [213 BC] biasa,menoj auvtou,j; PGiss 19, 13; LGötzeler, Quaestiones in Appiani et Polybii dicendi genus 1890, 63; Esth 7:8 [rape]; En 103:14; 104:3) mistreat the poor people b. tou.j u`podeeste,rouj Dg 10:5.—With b. taken as pass., Mt 11:12 h` basilei,a t. ouvranw/n bia,zetai is frequently understood in the unfavorable sense the reign/kingdom of heaven is violently treated, is oppressed (so the pass. e.g. Thu. 1, 77, 4; POxy 294, 16 [22 AD]; Sir 31:21. On the topic of violence to the divine, cp. Paus. 2, 1, 5 ta. qei/a bia,sasqai=(it is difficult for a mere human) to coerce things in the realm of the divine.—GSchrenk, TW I 608ff; NRSV ‘has suffered violence’; its mng., w. b. understood as mid.: ‘has been coming violently’, s. 2 end); var. ways by which the violence is suffered have been suggested—(a) through hindrances raised against it (bia,zomai=be hindered, be obstructed: cp. the use of the mid. in this sense: Synes., Provid. 1, 1, 89c of the evil man’s power, which strives ei; ph| to.n qei/on no,mon bia,saito=[to see] whether it could perhaps ‘hinder’ the divine law; Jos., Ant. 1, 261). For the pass. in this sense, s. the versions: It., Vulg., Syr. Sin. and Cur. S. also Dalman, Worte 113-16; MDibelius, Joh. d. T. 1911, 26ff: hostile spirits.—(b) through the efforts of unauthorized pers. to compel its coming (s. HScholander, ZNW 13, 1912, 172-75)—(c) through attempts to occupy (an area) by force (a territory, Appian, Bell. Civ. 3, 24 §91).

2. to gain an objective by force, use force, intr. (X., Mem. 3, 9, 10; Diod. S. 4, 12, 5 oi` biazo,menoi=the ones who use force, the intruders; Plut., Mor. 203c; Epict. 4, 8, 40; Lucian, Necyom. 20, Hermot. 22; SIG 1042, 8 [Dssm., NB 85f (BS 258)]; 888, 24; 1243, 4f; PTebt 6, 31; PFlor 382, 54; Dt 22:25, 28; Philo, Mos. 1, 215; Jos., Bell. 3, 493; 518) of compulsion ouv biazo,menoj without using force (opp. pei,qein) Dg 7:4.—Of forcing one’s way (Demosth. 55, 17; Appian, Hann. 24 §106) w. ei;j ti enter forcibly into someth. (Thu. 1, 63, 1; 7, 69, 4; Polyb. 1, 74, 5; Plut., Otho 1072 [12, 10]; Philo, Mos. 1, 108 of a gnat forcing its way into bodily orifices eivj tavnto.j bia,zetai; Jos., Bell. 3, 423) h` basilei,a tou/ qeou/ euvaggeli,zetai kai. pa/j eivj auvth.n bia,zetai the reign of God is being proclaimed and everyone takes (or tries to take [cp. Polemo Soph. B 11 Reader, s. p. 266f]) it by force Lk 16:16 (hyperbolic usage; on the question whether this is a perspective attributed to Jesus or to his opposition concerning moral miscalculation, s. FDanker, JBL 77, ’58, 234-36).—Makes its way w. triumphant force is preferred for Mt 11:12 by FBaur; TZahn; AHarnack, SBBerlAk 1907, 947-57; WBrandt, ZNW 11, 1910, 247f; ROtto, Reich Gottes u. Menschensohn ’34, 84-88; cp. NRSV mg. ‘has been coming violently’.—EGraesser, D. Problem der Parusieverzögerung, ZNW Beih. 22, ’57, 180ff; OBetz, Jesu heiliger Krieg, NovT 2, ’57, 116-37.

3. go after someth. w. enthusiasm, seek fervently, try hard, the sense is sought w. burning zeal is preferred by HHoltzmann; FDibelius, StKr 86, 1913, 285-88; et al. for Mt 11:12. A variation of this interpretation is the sense try hard, but the support sought in Epict. 4, 7, 20f is questionable, for this latter pass. rather refers to attempts at forced entry when one is not welcome.

4. constrain (warmly) if bia,zetai Lk 16:16 is to be understood as a passive, as POxy 294, 16 (22 AD), or in the same sense as the mid. in Gen 33:11; Judg 13:15, the sense would be invite urgently of the ‘genteel constraint imposed on a reluctant guest’ (so vHoffmann et al.; s. FDibelius [s. 3 above]; cp. the sense of Lk 14:23 avna,gkason eivselqei/n ‘compel them to come in’).—On usage at Qumran s. BThiering, NovT 21, ’79, 293-97.—DELG s.v. bi,a. M-M. TW. Spicq. Sv.

Just by coincidence I happened to be listening to a Concordia seminary class on the Gospel of Matthew that is available on iTunes. It's the first session and they discuss this verse. The instructor argues for the reading found in the KJV/ESV/NKJV. You can also read an edited entry from the TDNT here: http://girardianlectionary.net/res/biazomai.htm

At any rate, I don't believe it's fair to say that the KJV is simply based on the Vulgate. It is possible to take the verb either as middle or passive. In the passive it always has a negative sense and in the middle it usually has a negative sense but can have a positive sense. The noun form at the end definitely has a negative connotation and studies have shown that the verb and noun form taken together always have a negative connotation. The Greek fathers for whatever reason never discuss the first clause in the verse and understand the second clause as a call to ascetic behavior. Chrysostom and Luther take the second clause as teaching that we should be ernest in seeking the kingdom. Two new intepretations were offered by Karlstadt and Melancthon in the 16th century. Karlstadt claims that Jesus is simply explaining the persecution that is happening and takes both the verb and the noun negatively. Melancthon in the 16th century (followed by some modern interpreters) is the first person to interpret the verb positively in this verse. He interpreted it as saying that the kingdom of heaven is advancing but that people are persecuting it. There is no consensus among commentators as to the interpretation of this verse.