Totus Tuus sum Maria

[thereselittleflower]

Really? It kind of grosses me out!

Me too Alexis. . . I was wondering if I was the only one. . ..


Peace

 

[thereselittleflower]

Sweetie, the name is lamb's love not lamb's glove.

Oh my goodness! I did that? I am so sorry . . it wasn't intentional . . that's what I get for trying to squeak a post in before running out the door. . . I knew it was lambslove . . . silly me . . .

And I don't know anything about a list of indulgences, but I do have the little rosary booklet I picked up at the Miami County (ohio) fair from the roman catholic booth and it says the same exact thing about having rosaries blessed and getting indulgences. If you can tell me what a list of indulgences is, maybe I can look it up for you. But are you saying that catholic.com and newadvent.com are misquoting doctrine? They are websites officially run and sanctioned by the catholic church.

This isn't doctrine. . it is a practice . . . Doctrines can't be changed, but practices can. I know the Church redid the list of indulgences and many things that carried an indulgence before no longer do now . . . In all the literature I have seen on Rosaries, I don't have anything that says each bead is indulgenced, which makes me wonder if this was an older practice and it has been discontinued, or if a more general type of indulgence has taken its place. . . I would have to see the actual wording of the indulgence itself to know . .

I researched what you were quoting further and it is from the early 1900's . . .so at that time, this was the pratice. I don't think this is true any longer, but you have caught my interest, so I will probably do a little more research on this later.

But I guess the real question is, why does it matter? An indulgence, from what I understand, is not granted if someone doesn't believe in them, or for temproral punishment related to unforgiven sin . . .

The question original put to me was what would it do for Mark to have his rosary blessed, so I was answering THAT particular question . . indulgences would not even come into the picture for him . .

The reason for having his rosary blessed is much more general, to particpate to the extent possible in how we set aside an object for holy use, in this case, prayer.

As for the comment about it being presented for a child, there's no shame in being child-like, is there? Didn't Christ say we have to have a child-like faith in order to gain the kingdom of heaven?

I never said anything that would suggest that there is any shame in being child-like .. we are all to become as little children. That was not what I was referring to at all . . .

I was referring to how the explanation was very simplistic, oversimplistic in fact to have a very meaningful discussion - such oversimplistic explanations lend themselves to being very easily misunderstood, as it seems to have done here.



Peace

 

[Gold Dragon]

Thanks for all of the info guys.

I didn't know the beads had indulgences associated with them!

I thought that the indulgence stuff had been done away with.

It was the selling of indulgences that Luther objected to and that has been done away with. Indulgences themselves are still around, but no longer sold.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I see this 'other pope dude' is mad because 'there is no salvation outside the RCC' and John Paul II said there is, i think is was him anyways.

http://www.truecatholic.org/pope/encyc-ecclesia.htm

Well, there are those who want to go to extremes with the Catholic faith as well as any other faith . . so they cut themselves off, say they are the only ones who are going to heaven, etc, etc . . . .

I don't go to that site for information . . .



Peace

 

[thereselittleflower]

It was the selling of indulgences that Luther objected to and that has been done away with. Indulgences themselves are still around, but no longer sold.

Yes, bsically this is right.

What was actually discontinued was the practice of granting indulgences for "alms" because of the potential for abuse, not just the abuse itself.

Peace

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Yes, bsically this is right.

What was actually discontinued was the practice of granting indulgences for "alms" because of the potential for abuse, not just the abuse itself.

Peace

Actually, Some indulgences are still sold today. A missionary in our church lives in Canada. He told our church that his friend, who is unsaved and is a Catholic, paid $5000 to a priest so he could get to heaven and live the life he wanted. The priest accepted the money and gave him a certificate of pardon. Then our missionary showed his friend in the bible where our debt was PAID IN FULL. I cannot remember if the man accepted the true gospel but it floored me that this practice still goes on today. Don't be so sure to think that this does not still happen.
GEL

 

[thereselittleflower]

Actually, Some indulgences are still sold today. A missionary in our church lives in Canada. He told our church that his friend, who is unsaved and is a Catholic, paid $5000 to a priest so he could get to heaven and live the life he wanted. The priest accepted the money and gave him a certificate of pardon. Then our missionary showed his friend in the bible where our debt was PAID IN FULL. I cannot remember if the man accepted the true gospel but it floored me that this practice still goes on today. Don't be so sure to think that this does not still happen.
GEL

GEL, you have GOT to be kidding me, right?

I have NO idea what this priest thinks he is doing . . is it possible that he is one of those who belong to one of the break away ultra traditional groups like the site linked to eariler who ignore what the Catholic Church allows and does not allow?

I can assure you that the Church does NOT AT ALL allow for the giving of "pardon" for money . . .

I don't want to disparage another's credibility, but are you sure this person is a trustworthy individual and isn't making something up? Did he offer any proof that this happened? Is the person who this happened to available to confirm the story?

It just sounds really fishy . . .


And no . . it does not happen today . . the Church does not allow it, and if a priest is doing this, the Church needs to know about it!


If this happened, then someone was running a scam or they are part of a crazy group . .


Peace

 

[GreenEyedLady]

First of all, a bible believing, soul winning, french candian missionary who was saved by the blood of Jesus told our church this. He was catholic his whole life until someone showed him the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and he was saved at the moment of accepting Christ. Not only does this man have bible knowledge, but he also has alot of RCC knowledge. So, YES, is he totally crediable. There are alot of things that go on outside of our country in other countries that we know nothing about. What may be the norm in some areas may not be the norm in others. Yes, this was a normal Roman Catholic Priest no wacko.
All I can say, is that it has been practiced in this decade whether or not the church knows it.
No, I am not kidding.
GEL

 

[thereselittleflower]

First of all, a bible believing, soul winning, french candian missionary who was saved by the blood of Jesus told our church this. He was catholic his whole life until someone showed him the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and he was saved at the moment of accepting Christ. Not only does this man have bible knowledge, but he also has alot of RCC knowledge. So, YES, is he totally crediable. There are alot of things that go on outside of our country in other countries that we know nothing about. What may be the norm in some areas may not be the norm in others. Yes, this was a normal Roman Catholic Priest no wacko.
All I can say, is that it has been practiced in this decade whether or not the church knows it.
No, I am not kidding.
GEL

GEL

That "pardon" was not worth the paper it was printed on. The Church does not allow it . . PERIOD.

If a priest was doing this, this is a big problem regarding this priest. He has no authority to offer such a thing. He is going off on his own.

This is a situation that highlights something that is not so evident on the surface. . . . It highlights that this individual priest was doing something on his own, outside the jurisdiction of the Church and without the Church's blessing or consent.

What needs to happen is that this priest needs to be reported. What he did not only went against the prohibition of the Church regarding the giving of "alms" for indulgences, but also against the Doctrines of the Church, for no indulgence can remit sins past, present or future; and no indulgence can remit future temporal punishments for sins committed, though later forgiven, after the indulgence was gained.

What this priest did was unscriptural, unChrsitian, and unCatholic.

What this priest is doing needs to be reported to the Vatican! This makes me mad.

What he did didn't make the Church wrong in what She teaches and practices, it made HIM wrong . .

The same thing would be true if a Baptist pastor did something wrong, against what the Baptist Church teaches . it would mean he as an individual was wrong, not the Baptist Church.

The Church's official position is that no one is allowed to accept money in exchange for an indulgence of any kind. I am afraid this person he talked to was 'had' - he paid $5000 for nothing!



Peace

 

[GreenEyedLady]

GEL

. I am afraid this person he talked to was 'had' - he paid $5000 for nothing!

Peace

We ALL know this is true!
Even the people back in the day were "had" for thier money

 

[Gold Dragon]

Actually, Some indulgences are still sold today. A missionary in our church lives in Canada. He told our church that his friend, who is unsaved and is a Catholic, paid $5000 to a priest so he could get to heaven and live the life he wanted. The priest accepted the money and gave him a certificate of pardon. Then our missionary showed his friend in the bible where our debt was PAID IN FULL. I cannot remember if the man accepted the true gospel but it floored me that this practice still goes on today. Don't be so sure to think that this does not still happen.
GEL

If this is true, it is in direct disobedience to Rome.

If you want to dig up abuses by Baptists rumoured by non-Baptists, we could be here all day.

 

[mesue]

Mesue:
Two references on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipope
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01582a.htm

Thanks Dave!
Very interesting sites.

Is there an Orthodox Catholic Pope?
If so, is he considered anti-pope?

 

[Iollain]

I know a guy who i went to school with who calls himself the Pope.

 

[aReformedPatriot]

***Mod Hat On***

This is your friendly Neighborhood Watchdog reminding all of our non Baptist/Anabaptist Neighbors that they may post questions and fellowship posts but they may not debate.

Have a good Day

***Mod Hat Off***

 

[Gold Dragon]

The Orthodox catholic
The Roman Catholic
or
The Greek Catholic?
I merely asked if the Orthodox Catholics had a Pope.
I was Roman Catholic. I understand Roman Catholicism, but none of the other Catholic denominations. If I weren't Baptist I may have considered Orthodox.
Roman Catholics do have a Pope, I don't know if the Orthodox Catholics do or not. I hope this is clearer.

I don't believe the Orthodox refer to themselves as Orthodox Catholics, but I could be wrong.

One of the major reasons for the East-West Schism was because of a disagreement about the description "first among equals" that the Bishop of Rome held in relation to the bishops of the other Sees of that time. The Patriarch/Bishop of Constantinople was seen as the "first among equals" in the eastern church after the schism. The other "equals" include the traditional Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem as well as the more modern Russian, Greek, Georgian, Romanian, etc.

 

[mesue]

I don't believe the Orthodox refer to themselves as Orthodox Catholics, but I could be wrong.

One of the major reasons for the East-West Schism was because the Eastern church because of a disagreement about the phrase "first among equals" description that the Bishop of Rome held in relation to the bishops of the other Sees of that time. The Patriarch/Bishop of Constantinople was seen as the "first among equals" in the eastern church after the schism. The other "equals" include the traditional Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem as well as the more modern Russian, Greek, Georgian, Romanian, etc.

But, do they have a pope?

 

[Gold Dragon]

But, do they have a pope?

It depends on what you mean by pope. Any priest can rightly be called pope which means father.

But if you are talking about having a spiritual/political leader equivalent to Benedict XVI, then no. The Patriarch of Constantinople is considered the first among equals, but does not hold authority over the other Sees in the EOC.

The governance structure used by the EOC is called an autocephaly.

 

[mesue]

It depends on what you mean by pope. Any priest can rightly be called pope which means father.

But if you are talking about having a spiritual/political leader equivalent to Benedict XVI, then no. The Patriarch of Constantinople is considered the first among equals, but does not hold authority over the other Sees in the OEC.

The governance structure used by the OEC is called an autocephaly.

Thanks for the info
I'm going to have to bookmark Wikipedia.

 

[Carrye]

It depends on what you mean by pope. Any priest can rightly be called pope which means father.

I wouldn't equate the terms though GD, because in English they mean different things, and actually meant different things initally. Pope comes from the Latin 'papa' or the Greek 'pappas'. It was originally used to refer to a bishop, which the Pope is - bp of Rome. It is now used within the Church as an exclusive title of the Bishop of Rome.

While we (general English usage) think of a "papa" as being a father, that isn't the way it's used within the Catholic Church. The Latin that we would use to refer to a priest would be "pater" not "papa".

I should say too, that I wanted to start calling my priest "papa" (common English usage), as a way of distinguishing him from all of my priest-professors in school. He instructed me not to do so for exactly the reason I stated above.

I hope that helps. I always appreciate your honest, moderate presentation of facts, GD.

I don't believe the Orthodox refer to themselves as Orthodox Catholics, but I could be wrong.

Some do, actually. Though they certainly don't mean any connection to the Catholic Church when they say it.

 

[Gold Dragon]

I wouldn't equate the terms though GD, because in English they mean different things, and actually meant different things initally. Pope comes from the Latin 'papa' or the Greek 'pappas'. It was originally used to refer to a bishop, which the Pope is - bp of Rome. It is now used within the Church as an exclusive title of the Bishop of Rome.

While we (general English usage) think of a "papa" as being a father, that isn't the way it's used within the Catholic Church. The Latin that we would use to refer to a priest would be "pater" not "papa".

I should say too, that I wanted to start calling my priest "papa" (common English usage), as a way of distinguishing him from all of my priest-professors in school. He instructed me not to do so for exactly the reason I stated above.

I hope that helps. I always appreciate your honest, moderate presentation of facts, GD.

Thanks for the clarification.