Flynmonkie said:
Lockheed - I understand where you are going with this, and the only thing I want to say is that no matter the denomination, Satan has a way of twisting the truth. Loves it when we are in disagreement.
I'm sure that Satan loves it even more when we willingly embrace falsehood in the guise of 'unity'. This is exactly what the Apostle Paul warned about in his pastoral letters when he writes, "the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires..."
God says he has plans for us for the good not disaster, Satan is saying the exact opposite.
But it is not as if these are two equal forces pulling against each other. As Christians we do not believe in such dualism, the God of the Bible is Sovereign, and will see His plans through. Satan is simply a part of that plan, whether or not he knows it. That said we should still warn each other of drifiting away from the Gospel which is found in the pages of Scripture and not in the supposed infallible teachings of men.
Keep this in mind on both sides of the fence here. Yes even in our own. I attend a Baptist Church. I feel this is where God has called me and agree with MANY things..in the real world. Some of the stuff I see here I have to raise my eyebrows. Baptist on paper gets confusing. I do believe you are right to point out the possibilities of The pope being misunderstood because lets face it - it is quite obvious that this can happen. IN ANY denomination. (I had actually never seen that quote before, I found it enlightening)
The Pope, however, does not stand apart from Roman Catholic doctrine. It is not as if the Pope is an individual believer following his own little spiritual trek completely apart from the Roman system. He is declared by Roman Catholic teaching to be infallible when teaching on matters of faith and doctrine, the 'Vicar of Christ' and so on. The papal system therefore is supported by the doctrines and dogma that have come to create it and have be decreed from it. Thus we cannot view the Pope apart from the errors of Rome including, but not limited to, the Marian dogmas, their teaching, their priesthood, their sacraficial Mass and most important of all, their flawed understanding of justification.
The Pope is the head of the Roman Catholic church, their supreme leader and teacher, he is therefore ultimately responsible by their own declaration for the spiritual state of 1.5 billion Roman Catholics. Their errors are his errors and his errors become theirs. As it is written:
James 3:1
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
Regarding the statue picture. When I first arrived here I hopped over to the Catholic forum and started asking questions. Which somewhat satisfied me however I felt many were on the defensive so I ceased conversation. One comment that many agreed with regarding these statues of Mary...it is their way of showing that Mary welcomes you to come in to see her son. I thought this was a gesture made in good faith. Why not a Jesus statue?
This is the very reason, however, that the second commandment was declared by God. God is
invisible no image, save the actual body of Christ, can properly represent Him on Earth and He desires that we do not create such images. The point of the command is that we not make images of anything and worship or
serve them, included in the concept of the Hebrew word that translates to us as "serve" is the idea of paying respect to or honoring them.
It can (and usually is) argued that people do not worship or serve the statues they create but instead what they represent. This argument however is no more valid than that of the homosexual who, in rejecting the Bible's clear condemnation of their acts, says that "gays do not lay with men as they do with women!" The point of both passages is not to describe a specific kind of worship (and/or sexual activity) but to condemn the spirit and intent therein.
When the Israelites made a golden calf in the wilderness and honored it, they were not (in their mind) worshiping an idol but YHWH God, the "God that delivered them from Egypt." God's anger was not against them simply for worshiping a false God, but in reality for attempting to worship Him in such a false manner. Likewise when a Catholic stands before a 32' bronze statue of Mary and asks her for favor, surely he/she is not attempting to get the bronze statue to do something, but that which the statue represents. But as I've explained, this is exactly what God condemns in the second commandment, regardless of wether or not Mary is actually able to hear prayers or answer them.
I am not sure. Why is Jesus on the cross, when as Christians we know he rose? I have been told once to remind us of what suffering he did for us before He rose, as that we dont forget. Who cares?? Some need these reminders some don't but you are right it is very wise to make sure that others understand - this can be taken the wrong way. Trust me if I ever run into a Catholic that puts Mary above Jesus, we would be having an extensive talk too! But out here I do not believe this to be the case.
So it is ok to serve, worship, or pray to something or someone as long as they don't put it above Christ? What would you say to the Muslim who says "I have Jesus AND Mohammed"? This is not a rethorical question, this actually has happened. Our response to both the Muslim, and the Roman Catholic should be the same: There is no other mediator between God and men but the man Jesus Christ. (Heb 9:15)
And pardon me as that I do not remember whom made the post.....somewhere in here a catholic said that they pray to the saints for support. This did alarm me, as that I just wanted to make sure that person understands that as Christians, we have a direct line to God. No need of any other assistance. However, we are taught as Baptist to fellowship in prayer, or prayer warriors. For me - I believe it is an awesome practice for two reasons. For my support and accountability amongst fellow Christians. And their understanding of my struggles as example. Not that I believe God is going to hear the prayers any more than what I have said to Him. But that it promotes fellowship (unless I am missing some verses on this one)
Yet again, this pre-supposes that the saints are 1) able to hear prayers, 2) interceding on behalf of believers on earth, 3)
supposed to be contacted, 4) no longer in "purgatory".
See by accepting the Catholic theory of post-mortem intercession you thereby have to accept their theory of Purgatory, in accepting the idea of Purgatory you thereby have to accept their system of Beatification and the Pope's headship, in accepting that you thereby have to accept their view of the Treasury of Merit and in accepting that you have to accept the Mass, and in accepting that you deny that the once-for-all Sacrifice of Christ on Calvary was sufficient to save anyone. It's an all or nothing system.
So what my point is - we all have various ways of showing our faith and that is Ok.
Was it "ok" for the children of Israel to make a golden statue to seek intercession from YHWH? Did God respect their "way of showing their faith"?
But it is very important that you understand, there is no need for any assistance in talking with God, for assistance, repentance etc.... eventually we start dispelling some of those things as our faith becomes stronger and our sanctification more mature IMVHO
Oh and yesterday I believe or a couple of days ago I caught the news and I distinctly remember the Pope embracing all Christians..including the jews. I found this to be very pleasing to God. Wise man, just because we disagee does not mean we should disrespect (of course this is contrary to scripture)
Just because he is addressing non- Christians, does not mean the couldnt become one. At least this is how I took it. A watchful eye should be everywhere with us Christians, and that includes any denomination in my eyes.
Perhaps you've not read the offical statements of the Roman Catholic church in regards to such matters?
"Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.; But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life."
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH: LUMEN GENTIUM, SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HOLINESS, POPE PAUL VI, NOVEMBER 21, 1964
The Roman Catholic system is quite different than that which we Baptists, find in Scripture.
