Totus Tuus II

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, All

This prayer was written by the Holy Father to
Mary Immaculate

Totally yours,
Immaculate Conception, Mary my Mother,
Live in me, Act in me,
Speak in me and through me,
Think your thoughts in my mind,
Love through my heart,
Give me your dispositions and feelings,
Teach, lead me and guide me to Jesus,
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior,
Possess my soul,
Take over my entire personality and life, replace it with Yourself,
Incline me to constant adoration,
Pray in me and through me,
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.

http://prayers.viarosa.com/TotusTuus.html

While re reading this prayer that John Paul wrote, not only is it contray to the very nature of the gospel and the Faith once delivered to the saints. It seems that this kind of incantation is used by "mediums" that channel the thoughts, feelings and knowledge of dead people.

What do you think have I gone to far in my assesment of the words he wrote?

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[GreenEyedLady]

No you have not gone too far.....
Nothing and nobody should posses us or live in us but the Holy Spirit!

 

[Bulldog]

No.

 

[2Timothy2]

I haven't read everything you've posted on this, but I have read some, and I'd say that you have not gone too far. Although, I was a bit confused as to who this "Holy Father" was, till I read the rest of the OP.

 

[Iollain]

I voted no

 

[Matthan]

Matthan <J><

 

[mesue]

Good Day, All

This prayer was written by the Holy Father to
Mary Immaculate

Totally yours,
Immaculate Conception, Mary my Mother,
Live in me, Act in me,
Speak in me and through me,
Think your thoughts in my mind,
Love through my heart,
Give me your dispositions and feelings,
Teach, lead me and guide me to Jesus,
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior,
Possess my soul,
Take over my entire personality and life, replace it with Yourself,
Incline me to constant adoration,
Pray in me and through me,
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.

http://prayers.viarosa.com/TotusTuus.html

While re reading this prayer that John Paul wrote, not only is it contray to the very nature of the gospel and the Faith once delivered to the saints. It seems that this kind of incantation is used by "mediums" that channel the thoughts, feelings and knowledge of dead people.

What do you think have I gone to far in my assesment of the words he wrote?

Peace to u,

Bill

Wow, it's like he thinks that Mary is the Holy Spirit or something. It would be a more righteous prayer if Jesus was substituted for "Immaculate Conception, Mary my Mother" It's actually what a Christian should strive for. I would need a Book, Chapter and Verse to back up this prayer as being righteous.

And (In Roseanne Rosannadanna form) How can a conception that belongs to someone else and happened more than 2,000 years ago live in me, or anyone else? Especially a man. Men don't get pregnant. That's not how Jesus indwells in me.

 

[McDLT]

Is this about Baptist/Anabaptist? Would this be better in the general religous forum?

 

[mesue]

No, then we accused of all kinds of bashing when, really, it's not bashing it's disagreeing with Roman doctrine. And this is a big thing to disagree with. This isn't "asking a friend to pray for you" this is speaking to the dead and that angers God.

2 Chronicles 33:6 And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I just want to say that I totally understand where you all are coming from in regards to this prayer, and completely sympathize with you and your reaction to it.

From your perspective this has to seem like one of the most sacriligeous prayers you can imagine . . .

4 years ago, I would have felt the same exact way. I mean, I was afraid that just listening to the rosary on the radio would be an act that could invite the demonic into my car and my life - I am not exaggerating . . . . This prayer would have sent me ducking for cover. So I really do understand.


I understand such prayers now, and so I no loger approach such things from the same perspective you all do and as I once did also. . . . . .

I am not going to play this down at all . . . to understand this prayer the way it needs to be understood, requires a HUGE shift in perspective . . one that can literally take years . . . so I don't know how much any of us can help, especially here in your forum . . .

But if anyone is genuinely interested in trying to understand this prayer the way it was intended to be understood, please come and visit us at OBOB . . . you can put my user name in the title if you like so people there will have a better idea you are not simply coming in to stir things up . . . .

It is a difficult prayer to understand, so, in answer to your question BBAS . . did you go too far? From your perspective, no . .absolutely not . . .

But from our perspective, yes, absolutely yes.


Peace to all

 

[aReformedPatriot]

I am not going to play this down at all . . . to understand this prayer the way it needs to be understood, requires a HUGE shift in perspective . . one that can literally take years . . . so I don't know how much any of us can help, especially here in your forum . . .

A huge doctrinal shift my dear.

But if anyone is genuinely interested in trying to understand this prayer the way it was intended to be understood, please come and visit us at OBOB . . . you can put my user name in the title if you like so people there will have a better idea you are not simply coming in to stir things up . . . .

I'm kinda tired of constantly being invited to OBOB so I can understand things correctly, no offense to you because I know you mean well. (Plus you are a poster that I very much enjoy reading because of your kindness and knowledge). Nonetheless, Every thread regarding anything Catholic we can count on such a statement to be made. I guess that means we get everything right about pentacostalism because I never see any of them inviting us anywhere. We already understand it perfectly from our own position. (That's not to say some won't have misconceptions). When we are told we are wrong, we are wrong under the basis that we do not have the same doctrinal presuppositions as catholics. Some simply know more about Baptist faith and practice than others which will make a big difference in a post. If none of you ever get that we reject your presuppositions then we will always be wrong, and be people who are totally disinterested in "truth."

I'm curious to know how many baptist's think prayer is to be equated with worship.

In my opinion of the OP's questions, asking anyone other than God to dwell in you is pure heresy. So no, you have not gone to far. Let us keep things cool in here and let us not become rude or obstinate. Its one thing to hold a position, it is another to have a spirit of malevolence(sp?).

Please dont read any extreme emotionalism into that. Im not trying to make anyone mad.

- Mark

 

[GreenEyedLady]

A huge doctrinal shift my dear.




I'm kinda tired of constantly being invited to OBOB so I can understand things correctly, no offense to you because I know you mean well. (Plus you are a poster that I very much enjoy reading because of your kindness and knowledge). Nonetheless, Every thread regarding anything Catholic we can count on such a statement to be made. I guess that means we get everything right about pentacostalism because I never see any of them inviting us anywhere. We already understand it perfectly from our own position. (That's not to say some won't have misconceptions). When we are told we are wrong, we are wrong under the basis that we do not have the same doctrinal presuppositions as catholics. Some simply know more about Baptist faith and practice than others which will make a big difference in a post. If none of you ever get that we reject your presuppositions then we will always be wrong, and be people who are totally disinterested in "truth."

I'm curious to know how many baptist's think prayer is to be equated with worship.

In my opinion of the OP's questions, asking anyone other than God to dwell in you is pure heresy. So no, you have not gone to far. Let us keep things cool in here and let us not become rude or obstinate. Its one thing to hold a position, it is another to have a spirit of malevolence(sp?).

Please dont read any extreme emotionalism into that. Im not trying to make anyone mad.

- Mark

Amen..............amen........Can I say it again? AMEN!!!!!!!!!

This prayer needs not to be "understood" with our minds. The perspecitive that we hold here, please correct me if I am wrong Baptist/Anabaptist, is a BIBLICAL perspective. There is no other perspective that we "need" to have.
The bible is the final authority on all things of God. If we say that we are the final authority or our pastors/church are the final authority we are breaking a commandment. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. We would then be placing our faith in our own minds or in our own churchs that is not biblical.

thereselittleflower,
After explaining our perspective, being that it is a biblical perspective, you can see that there would be no need for us to "understand" anything more. And that us discussing this prayer in here is not to harass anyone, but to take a stand on the truth and frankly just to discuss. God bless and I hope that you continue to read and understand our biblical perspective.
GEL

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Good Day, All

Teach, lead me and guide me to Jesus,

I really do not understand why this sentence in the prayer. I thought he already "knew" Jesus. This sentence makes it look as if the Pope of the Catholic church did not "know" Jesus. Am I reading this wrong from a Baptist/Anabaptist perspective?
Are we considered by many arrogant because we can say we KNOW Jesus??

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

GEL

 

[aReformedPatriot]

I really do not understand why this sentence in the prayer. I thought he already "knew" Jesus. This sentence makes it look as if the Pope of the Catholic church did not "know" Jesus. Am I reading this wrong from a Baptist/Anabaptist perspective?
Are we considered by many arrogant because we can say we KNOW Jesus??

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

GEL

From: http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

If consecration to Mary “tends essentially to union with Jesus, under the guidance of Mary,” as Pope Pius XII pointed out, we must remember that any gradual transformation into Christ requires a gradual loving acceptance of a greater share in His redeeming Cross.

So when we offer ourselves to Mary to lead us, to form us into the likeness of her Son, we are offering to let her lead us along the way of the Cross.

Our Blessed Mother’s great concern is the salvation of the souls of her children, many of whom are being lost. She looks for generous souls among her children, who are willing to let her lead them close behind her Son, sharing more fully in His redemptive mission, filling up what is wanting in other members of the Body of Christ. Little by little they are transformed to see as Christ sees, and to desire what He desires. God wants to draw us closer to Himself, sharing more fully His Divine life; but we must understand what the fulfillment of this requires.

Their presupposition concerning Mary must be unravelled. However from our perspective, it is the Holy Spirit who leads us to Christ, not Mary. I am sure they will say the Holy Spirit comes into play somewhere though. This whole prayer is deep and could be dissected into a small book because of the many facets it has for both groups.

(That'd probably be something you'd have to goto OBOB for, but in general we can see where it conflicts with what we hold true.)

 

[mbkndomer]

You speak of perspective. That's precisely the problem here. People are bringing in their own perspective of what the pope was saying as though they had the ability to read his heart. For example, you say that only the Holy Spirit leads one to Jesus. On one level that's true. On another, have you ever heard someone give a testimonial about how their best friend, spouse, mother, father, etc. "led them to Jesus"? Of course, there's not way the pope could have meant this because he's obviously an idolator and wants Mary to supplant the role of the Holy Spirit.

As to another portion mentioned here, how many Baptist ministers mentioning a fellow Christian (or even one who has passed away) has said something to the effect of: "Let's make ourselves an example like _____. Let's let the love they've shown to others show in us as well. Let's speak out bravely for the Word of God as ____ does/did." This is beginning to look a lot like the beat-down argument against praying to saints dressed up in nice contemporary clothing.


I'd like to know precisely the portions of the prayer/poem that people find offensive and why. Is it the "lead me to Jesus" part? Is it the possess my soul part? Is it the desire of the man to reflect the life of the Christian example of Mary? Or is this simply a rehash of the old "praying to saints is wrong" argument (which is what it appears to be)?

 

[Iollain]

What i find wrong is this....what is asked of Mary here, is THE job of the Holy Spirit.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

First let me remind you that you are not allowed to debate in here because you are not a baptist or an anabaptist. So when we give an answer, that is it. Please do not come in here and try to shut down a thread that is simply a discussion about doctrine.

You speak of perspective. That's precisely the problem here. People are bringing in their own perspective of what the pope was saying as though they had the ability to read his heart. For example, you say that only the Holy Spirit leads one to Jesus. On one level that's true. On another, have you ever heard someone give a testimonial about how their best friend, spouse, mother, father, etc. "led them to Jesus"? Of course, there's not way the pope could have meant this because he's obviously an idolator and wants Mary to supplant the role of the Holy Spirit.

Yes you are right. Many are led to Christ by other people witnessing but by the power of the Holy Spirit ONLY, not by the intercession of Mary or any other human being who is alive or dead.

As to another portion mentioned here, how many Baptist ministers mentioning a fellow Christian (or even one who has passed away) has said something to the effect of: "Let's make ourselves an example like _____. Let's let the love they've shown to others show in us as well. Let's speak out bravely for the Word of God as ____ does/did." This is beginning to look a lot like the beat-down argument against praying to saints dressed up in nice contemporary clothing.

Honestly, I know of no Baptist/Anabaptist that agrees with the doctrine of praying to saints. As far as I know, we do not regard this as a biblical dotrine but a man made tradition. Some might agree to it, but I know of no churchs that preach it.

I'd like to know precisely the portions of the prayer/poem that people find offensive and why. Is it the "lead me to Jesus" part? Is it the possess my soul part? Is it the desire of the man to reflect the life of the Christian example of Mary? Or is this simply a rehash of the old "praying to saints is wrong" argument (which is what it appears to be)?

When someone is asking for somthing other than the Holy Spirit to posses thier soul, to teach them, to guide them this is an offensive. WHY? Not only is it not just asking that person that one is praying to for pray, but it seems that the intercessor has the same power of God or of the Holy Spirit. Anytime anyone puts anything on equal level with the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit it is offensive from a biblical perspective. Now I do undertstand that many believe in praying to saints, but I have never heard of asking them to posses thier soul and to take over thier entire personality and replace it. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I used to pray to saints and never asked them for these things listed in this prayer. Please remember, we are saying the prayer is offensive. No one here is judging the person, just the words!



Totally yours,
Immaculate Conception, Mary my Mother,
Live in me, Act in me,
Speak in me and through me,
Think your thoughts in my mind,
Love through my heart,
Give me your dispositions and feelings,
Teach, lead me and guide me to Jesus,
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior,
Possess my soul,
Take over my entire personality and life, replace it with Yourself,
Incline me to constant adoration,
Pray in me and through me,
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.

 

[Terri]

No Bill you haven't gone too far and I thank you for standing up for the truth.

Words have meanings and it does get very old for the C group to tell us that we don't understand words and we have to come to them to "understand" the words. Maybe they should understand that words have meanings and speak accordingly.

That is a horrible prayer. God shares His glory with NO ONE and that includes Mary.

I think some people other than Baptists are voting on your poll too Bill.

 

[BBAS 64]

You speak of perspective. That's precisely the problem here. People are bringing in their own perspective of what the pope was saying as though they had the ability to read his heart. .

Good Day, Mbkndomer

Read his heart no, read his words yes. the words he used are a clear example of what his perspective was and a refection of his heart then we can understand what he was saying just on the basis of the words he used.

.

For example, you say that only the Holy Spirit leads one to Jesus. On one level that's true. On another, have you ever heard someone give a testimonial about how their best friend, spouse, mother, father, etc. "led them to Jesus"? Of course, there's not way the pope could have meant this because he's obviously an idolator and wants Mary to supplant the role of the Holy Spirit.

Can you give me an example of a dead peroson leading some one to Christ, assume the friend ,mother, father were people that were alive. Most most would say that God used so and so to lead them to Christ.




.

As to another portion mentioned here, how many Baptist ministers mentioning a fellow Christian (or even one who has passed away) has said something to the effect of: "Let's make ourselves an example like _____. Let's let the love they've shown to others show in us as well. Let's speak out bravely for the Word of God as ____ does/did." This is beginning to look a lot like the beat-down argument against praying to saints dressed up in nice contemporary clothing..

That could be due to your misunderstanding of the issue raised. Did you read the OP I posted?


.

I'd like to know precisely the portions of the prayer/poem that people find offensive and why. Is it the "lead me to Jesus" part? Is it the possess my soul part? Is it the desire of the man to reflect the life of the Christian example of Mary? Or is this simply a rehash of the old "praying to saints is wrong" argument (which is what it appears to be)?

Again read the op I posted, it will give you my feelings on what the man wrote.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[mbkndomer]

My comments about "Let's make an example of ourselves, etc" had mothing to do with praying to saints.

Re: "possess my soul," why is the first instinct to assume he meant indwelling? Possess means a lot of things besides that. What language was this written in originally. Polish? Latin? If it was Latin, I can guarantee there are at least half a dozen words that could potentially translate as possess and none would carry the connotation of indwelling. I'd say that the only things being reflected here are the relative perspectives of the posters.

This wasn't an attempt to debate. It was more an attempt to try and figure out what the problem was. It could have been one of three things a) the pope's comments to Mary specifically, b) the fact that the pope was writing this to a "dead" person, or c) both a and b. I appreciate the responses as the problem appears to be C with a weight towards B.