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Totus Tuus II

Have I gone to far?

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aReformedPatriot

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mbkndomer said:
You speak of perspective. That's precisely the problem here. People are bringing in their own perspective of what the pope was saying as though they had the ability to read his heart. For example, you say that only the Holy Spirit leads one to Jesus. On one level that's true. On another, have you ever heard someone give a testimonial about how their best friend, spouse, mother, father, etc. "led them to Jesus"? Of course, there's not way the pope could have meant this because he's obviously an idolator and wants Mary to supplant the role of the Holy Spirit.

First, Mary is dead and in Heaven. Secondly, your making a distinction between the two (the Spirit, and the Tool God uses) where one seems to act indepnedant of the Spirit, whereas we would not. The Holy Spirit is at the forefront of all this activity and He uses people as a means to an end. Third, we are told: "And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength'" which is the total self, would you agree? Likewise we are never exhorted to make our theme "Totally Yours" in an addressal to Mary.

We reject all tradition associated with Mary.

When I read something, I want to know what the author actually meant. It's clearly a prayer to Mary. In it he asks Mary to dwell in him, and possess his soul. Only God can do these things. Is he being Hyperbolic? Is this an Idiom, some Roman Catholic expression where the literal definitions of the words employed cannot mean what the speaker has said? If so, what does it mean? [EDIT] Above you gave conjecture about different meanings yet you revealed not what the author meant.[/EDIT]

As to another portion mentioned here, how many Baptist ministers mentioning a fellow Christian (or even one who has passed away) has said something to the effect of: "Let's make ourselves an example like _____. Let's let the love they've shown to others show in us as well. Let's speak out bravely for the Word of God as ____ does/did." This is beginning to look a lot like the beat-down argument against praying to saints dressed up in nice contemporary clothing.

Nothing wrong with imitating a Godly person. Does not Paul say "imitate us"? Again two different things. I would never say "Brethren, Bob was a great man who served the Lord with all his heart. As such let us pray to him now, and ask him to dwell in us, to let his thoughts be our thoughts, that he may lead us." No sir, any Baptist whoever said such a thing would be tar and feathered lol.

But yes, part of the argument is that praying to saints is wrong.

I like to read OBOB a lot. It is constantly stated over there that you all don't have convorsations with the saints, its merely asking someone to pray for you. But in the case of Mary, Queen of Heaven, she's obviously exempt from those rules.

I'd like to know precisely the portions of the prayer/poem that people find offensive and why. Is it the "lead me to Jesus" part? Is it the possess my soul part? Is it the desire of the man to reflect the life of the Christian example of Mary? Or is this simply a rehash of the old "praying to saints is wrong" argument (which is what it appears to be)?

ALL of it with a little of "praying to saints is wrong" mixed in. Remove all refrence to Mary and we will love that prayer.
 
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GreenEyedLady

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mbkndomer said:
This wasn't an attempt to debate. It was more an attempt to try and figure out what the problem was. It could have been one of three things a) the pope's comments to Mary specifically, b) the fact that the pope was writing this to a "dead" person, or c) both a and b. I appreciate the responses as the problem appears to be C with a weight towards B.

Let me give you an answer for
C) The prayer attempts to place Mary on the same equal level as the Almighty God.
Please know that its not just the word posses that raises a flag and some eyebrows, but it is the power that is being sought from Mary who was just as much a sinner and you and I.
Let me pull up the part I am reffering to.
Live in me, Act in me,
Speak in me and through me,
Think your thoughts in my mind,
Love through my heart,
Give me your dispositions and feelings,
Teach, lead me and guide me to Jesus,


The only spirit that can live in someone and act in someone is the Holy Spirit. Not anyone elses. Speak in me and through me, Mary nor no other human being as the power to speak to or through anyone. No spirit can give thier feelings or dispositions or teach or lead. The only spirit that can do this is the Holy Spirit, not any one elses soul, mind or spirit. Placing faith in other spirits is not biblical. I hope you can now understand the problem that most Baptist/Anabaptist would have with this prayer.


GEL

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

We should be totally HIS.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
 
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Terri said:
No Bill you haven't gone too far and I thank you for standing up for the truth.

Words have meanings and it does get very old for the C group to tell us that we don't understand words and we have to come to them to "understand" the words. Maybe they should understand that words have meanings and speak accordingly.

That is a horrible prayer. God shares His glory with NO ONE and that includes Mary.

I think some people other than Baptists are voting on your poll too Bill. ;)

Good Day, Teri


Thanks Sister, I wish more would vote. I would consider moving this to GT but that may get ugly.

Bill :hug:
 
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ByzantineDixie

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At face value of these words, Bill, I don't know that you went too far considering the perspective from which you would approach such a prayer. The problem becomes can we take these words at face value?

If this is a prayer to Mary asking for her intercession so that she will pray that God, the Holy Spirit, dwells within the pope and makes him more like her in love and relationship with Christ then I have no real problems with it. If the prayer calls upon the "power of Mary" so that the spirit of Mary dwells in the pope...well, then ya, that creeps me out and is akin to paganism.

It's hard for me to judge what is meant here. My initial inclination would be less than charitable but I have learned a few things in my old age. I asked a TAW just the other day about something he/she wrote which on the surface appeared as blasphemy however, what was meant was nothing more than the intercession of Mary. Lutherans believe Mary prays for the Church. It is in our Confessions so this particular statement that I originally questioned was understood by the writer in a proper Christian context. I just wasn't reading it from his/her perspective.

Bill...couple of other orthodox Lutheran thoughts on this topic...with regard to praying to the dead saints (in essence, asking for their intercession, their prayers to God)...our confessions indicate we do not know whether or not such prayer is effective. Certainly we do not view the saints as "dead"...they are alive in Christ and we are in communion with them in Christ! Our confessions neither promote nor deny prayer to the saints. It's an unknown and left as a pious option. Christian liberty...it is a wonderful thing! :D

Peace

Rose
 
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tigersnare said:
I bet if we inserted any other name but "Mary", even the Catholics would think this to be heretical.

What do you guys think?

Good Day, Tiger

:scratch: very insightful, you may be on to something.


Peace to u,

Bill
 
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Cary.Melvin

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I found this quote about Totus Tuus in the context of speaking about the Rosery. I thought it was interesting.

FROM APOSTOLIC LETTER
ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE
BY JOHN PAUL II

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20021016_rosarium-virginis-mariae_en.html


The Rosary mystically transports us to Mary's side as she is busy watching over the human growth of Christ in the home of Nazareth. This enables her to train us and to mold us with the same care, until Christ is “fully formed” in us (cf. Gal 4:19). This role of Mary, totally grounded in that of Christ and radically subordinated to it, “in no way obscures or diminishes the unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power”. This is the luminous principle expressed by the Second Vatican Council which I have so powerfully experienced in my own life and have made the basis of my episcopal motto: Totus Tuus. The motto is of course inspired by the teaching of Saint Louis Marie Grignion de Montfort, who explained in the following words Mary's role in the process of our configuration to Christ: “Our entire perfection consists in being conformed, united and consecrated to Jesus Christ. Hence the most perfect of all devotions is undoubtedly that which conforms, unites and consecrates us most perfectly to Jesus Christ. Now, since Mary is of all creatures the one most conformed to Jesus Christ, it follows that among all devotions that which most consecrates and conforms a soul to our Lord is devotion to Mary, his Holy Mother, and that the more a soul is consecrated to her the more will it be consecrated to Jesus Christ”. Never as in the Rosary do the life of Jesus and that of Mary appear so deeply joined. Mary lives only in Christ and for Christ!​

Also does anyone know where that Prayer was published? I am having dificulty finding where John Paul II wrote that other than just on that website.

Thanks,​
 
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mesue

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mbkndomer said:
You speak of perspective. That's precisely the problem here. People are bringing in their own perspective of what the pope was saying as though they had the ability to read his heart.
Jesus said:
Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
mbkndomer said:
For example, you say that only the Holy Spirit leads one to Jesus. On one level that's true. On another, have you ever heard someone give a testimonial about how their best friend, spouse, mother, father, etc. "led them to Jesus"? Of course, there's not way the pope could have meant this because he's obviously an idolator and wants Mary to supplant the role of the Holy Spirit.
The "best friend, spouse, mother, father, etc. "led them to Jesus"" were all living beings doing the work of God through the Holy Spirit. Not dead best friend, spouse, mother, father, etc.
mbkndomer said:
As to another portion mentioned here, how many Baptist ministers mentioning a fellow Christian (or even one who has passed away) has said something to the effect of: "Let's make ourselves an example like _____. Let's let the love they've shown to others show in us as well. Let's speak out bravely for the Word of God as ____ does/did." This is beginning to look a lot like the beat-down argument against praying to saints dressed up in nice contemporary clothing.
Yes, your key word is "EXAMPLE" notice the pastor did not say to ask a dead person to indwell you to be more like Christ. Or, let's pray to this dead person to be more like Christ. Even Paul says to emulate him, but I don't pray to Paul to indwell me. I would pray to Jesus to make me as eloquent in speach as Paul to reach more people for the Lord, or more knowledgable in the word like Paul, or some attribute of Paul's that I could have that would be pleasing to God.
mbkndomer said:
I'd like to know precisely the portions of the prayer/poem that people find offensive and why. Is it the "lead me to Jesus" part? Is it the possess my soul part? Is it the desire of the man to reflect the life of the Christian example of Mary?
How about:
Immaculate Conception, Mary my Mother,
Live in me, Act in me,
Speak in me and through me,
Think your thoughts in my mind,

Why? Because he's asking a dead person to do this. Not God, Not Jesus, Not the Holy Spirit, whom are the only ones to ask of such a thing, Biblically.
or
Teach, lead me and guide me to Jesus,
Mary was a good servant for the Lord, but she cannot guide anyone to to Jesus, that is the work of the Holy Spirit. She's no longer alive and that friend-sister-mother thing doesn't wash here, it's not Biblically sound.
or
Possess my soul,
He's asking a dead person to possess his soul. There are only 2 that can dwell in the soul; God and Satan.
mbkndomer said:
Or is this simply a rehash of the old "praying to saints is wrong" argument (which is what it appears to be)?
No, for me it's a "Praying to dead people is wrong" thing.
Deuteronomy 18:9: When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
Deuteronomy 18:10: There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Deuteronomy 18:11: Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
Deuteronomy 18:12: For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

(bold fony mine for emphasis)

To say that it is anything less than sin is to call God a liar. The God I worship and the word He has preserved for me to live by, both contain no lies.
 
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ZiSunka

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If he were directing those words of his prayer to God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I would applaud them and celebrate such a bold show of faith.

But directing them to Mary certainly could lead one to the conclusion that he thought Mary is greater than God and more able to save and heal. :(
 
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Cary.Melvin said:
I found this quote about Totus Tuus in the context of speaking about the Rosery. I thought it was interesting.

FROM APOSTOLIC LETTER

ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE
BY JOHN PAUL II

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20021016_rosarium-virginis-mariae_en.html




The Rosary mystically transports us to Mary's side as she is busy watching over the human growth of Christ in the home of Nazareth. This enables her to train us and to mold us with the same care, until Christ is “fully formed” in us (cf. Gal 4:19). This role of Mary, totally grounded in that of Christ and radically subordinated to it, “in no way obscures or diminishes the unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power”. This is the luminous principle expressed by the Second Vatican Council which I have so powerfully experienced in my own life and have made the basis of my episcopal motto: Totus Tuus. The motto is of course inspired by the teaching of Saint Louis Marie Grignion de Montfort, who explained in the following words Mary's role in the process of our configuration to Christ: “Our entire perfection consists in being conformed, united and consecrated to Jesus Christ. Hence the most perfect of all devotions is undoubtedly that which conforms, unites and consecrates us most perfectly to Jesus Christ. Now, since Mary is of all creatures the one most conformed to Jesus Christ, it follows that among all devotions that which most consecrates and conforms a soul to our Lord is devotion to Mary, his Holy Mother, and that the more a soul is consecrated to her the more will it be consecrated to Jesus Christ”. Never as in the Rosary do the life of Jesus and that of Mary appear so deeply joined. Mary lives only in Christ and for Christ!​









Also does anyone know where that Prayer was published? I am having dificulty finding where John Paul II wrote that other than just on that website.

Thanks,



Good Day Cary

You might try to goggle a line of his writting, I got about 20 hits.


I am some what surprized at the usage of John Paul as it relates to this verse.

Gal 4:19 my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you!

He seems to think that this some how is related to Mary, but the writter never mentions her if ones was to assume it did it would completly be contray to the context.

Chrysostom notes:

Ver. 19. "My little children,104 of whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you."

Observe his perplexity and perturbation, "Brethren, I beseech you:" "My little children, of whom I am again in travail:" He resembles a mother trembling for her children. "Until Christ be formed in you." Behold his paternal tenderness, behold this despondency worthy of an Apostle. Observe what a wail he utters,far more piercing than of a woman in travail;-Ye have defaced the likeness, ye have destroyed the kinship, ye have changed the form, ye need another regeneration and refashioning;105 nevertheless I call you children, abortions and monsters though ye be. However, he does not express himself in this way, but spares them, unwilling to strike, and to inflict wound upon wound. Wise physicians do not cure those who have fallen into a long sickness all at once, but little by little, lest they should faint and die. And so is it with this blessed man; for these pangs were more severe in proportion as the force of his affection was stronger. And the offense was of no trivial kind. And as I have ever said and ever will say, even a slight fault mars the appearance and distorts the figure of the whole.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-13/TOC.htm#TopOfPage

Peace to u,

Bill
 
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GreenEyedLady

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This thread is really really intersting. I am learning alot!
Its so nice to be able to discuss in a Christ-like way and to reply Christ-like even if some might come in to try and bait the thread.
No one answered my question.
Are we, as Baptist/Anabaptist believers considered arrogant and prideful because we claim that we KNOW Jesus and that we have already be lead to Jesus and that he dwells within us????
GEL
 
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Matthan

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Cary.Melvin said:
I found this quote about Totus Tuus in the context of speaking about the Rosery. I thought it was interesting.

FROM APOSTOLIC LETTER

ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE
BY JOHN PAUL II

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20021016_rosarium-virginis-mariae_en.html






The Rosary mystically transports us to Mary's side as she is busy watching over the human growth of Christ in the home of Nazareth. This enables her to train us and to mold us with the same care, until Christ is “fully formed” in us (cf. Gal 4:19). This role of Mary, totally grounded in that of Christ and radically subordinated to it, “in no way obscures or diminishes the unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power”. This is the luminous principle expressed by the Second Vatican Council which I have so powerfully experienced in my own life and have made the basis of my episcopal motto: Totus Tuus. The motto is of course inspired by the teaching of Saint Louis Marie Grignion de Montfort, who explained in the following words Mary's role in the process of our configuration to Christ: “Our entire perfection consists in being conformed, united and consecrated to Jesus Christ. Hence the most perfect of all devotions is undoubtedly that which conforms, unites and consecrates us most perfectly to Jesus Christ. Now, since Mary is of all creatures the one most conformed to Jesus Christ, it follows that among all devotions that which most consecrates and conforms a soul to our Lord is devotion to Mary, his Holy Mother, and that the more a soul is consecrated to her the more will it be consecrated to Jesus Christ”. Never as in the Rosary do the life of Jesus and that of Mary appear so deeply joined. Mary lives only in Christ and for Christ!​






Also does anyone know where that Prayer was published? I am having dificulty finding where John Paul II wrote that other than just on that website.



Thanks,




The blasphemy and heresy that appears in this essay and in the totus tuus is almost overwhelming, and certainly more than my feeble mind can comprehend. However, because of the nature of the subject, I feel I must respond.

"The Rosary mystically transports us to Mary's side as she is busy watching over the human growth of Christ in the home of Nazareth. This enables her to train us and to mold us with the same care, until Christ is “fully formed” in us"

Say what? Just who is Mary when it comes to Christianity? In reality she is a non-entity with respect to our faith in Jesus as the Christ of God. So, why should we even consider her, much less desire to be transported to her side? Why should she "train" anyone for anything, notwithstanding the intentional misquote of Galatians 4:19 to mislead and misdirect the reader. That situation by itself is sufficient to support a charge of blasphemy to God against the author.

"This role of Mary, totally grounded in that of Christ and radically subordinated to it, “in no way obscures or diminishes the unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power”."

To state that the role of Mary is in any way grounded in that of Christ is another blasphemy to God by the author. What role does she play? NONE! NADA! ZIP! Christianity is not in any way a faith in Jesus plus Mary, or Jesus supported by Mary, or Jesus and dear old Mom. JESUS IS GOD! Jesus was the perfect sacrifice for our sins. Mary served as God's vessel in birthing and raising our Lord, but her intervention in any part of God's plan for us that we have called Christianity is non-existant! She serves NO PURPOSE in our salvation!

"Now, since Mary is of all creatures the one most conformed to Jesus Christ, it follows that among all devotions that which most consecrates and conforms a soul to our Lord is devotion to Mary, his Holy Mother, and that the more a soul is consecrated to her the more will it be consecrated to Jesus Christ”."

Mary is most comformed to Jesus? Just how did that come about? Where does that snipit of knowledge appear in Scripture? Oh, that right. Virtually everything connected to Mary is a tradition. Well, man can have his traditions, and he can believe that his traditions are somehow acceptable to God. The Pharisees tried it, and Jesus did not hesitate to tell them what their traditions meant to God, which once again is ZIP, ZILCH, and NADA. But here is the truth to be derived from this particular quotation. The more any soul is concecrated to Mary, the less it will even be considered by God OR Jesus for the gift of God's grace. No one can expect to walk away from God's glory and yet still receive His grace.

I guess what pains my heart the most is that the author of the blasphemy and heresy quoted at the beginning of this post and of this thread was a man who led many millions of individuals who want nothing more than to be true Christians. {Staff Edit}

And yes, my heart is extremely pained for each and every Catholic that is victim to this blasphemy and heresy.

Matthan <J><

[The above is from my heart, is grounded in Scripture, and is not intended to offend anyone. However, should anyone be offended, then feel free to eject me from this forum. What I have posted here is the truth, and I will gladly receive any penalty for expressing the truth.]
 
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mesue

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GreenEyedLady said:
... Are we, as Baptist/Anabaptist believers considered arrogant and prideful because we claim that we KNOW Jesus and that we have already be lead to Jesus and that he dwells within us????
GEL

No, God is not the author of confusion. He wants us to know His word and bring others to Him. If you were going to follow somebody that is leading you somewhere, wouldn't you want to be certain of where the final destination was?
God gives the knowledge through the Holy Spirit which is in those that are saved:

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

2 Corinthians 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
2 Corinthians 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

2 Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

I could go on and on, but I think scripture made the point. I don't think it's arrogant, I think it's faithful.
 
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aReformedPatriot

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This prayer in was brought up in OBOB asking about the radical language that is in it. No one touched it as of yet. It speaks for itself, IMO.
_______

Catholics say we cannot attain salvation at any one point, nor can we know. At best if we lead a good life we have a solid shot.

The author of 1 John says "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. "
 
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Good day, All

Thank you all for your imput on this issue, I am trying to understand how my perspective has to change so that the words written cease to mean what they mean.

Do you know what I mean? :p

If not change your perspective!:D

Peace to u,

Bill
 
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Pretty scary stuff indeed. Anyone here read the "Glories of Mary" yet? shudder...

"PRAYER FOR PERSEVERANCE QUEEN of Heaven, most Holy Mary, I was once a slave of sin, but now I consecrate myself to thee as thy client forever. I give myself to thine honor and service for the rest of my life. Do not reject me as I deserve, but accept me as thy servant.

I have placed all my hope in thee as my Mother. I bless and thank Almighty God, because in His mercy He has given me this confidence in thee. It is true that in the past I have shamefully fallen into sin; but I trust that, through thy prayers and the merits of Jesus Christ, I have been forgiven. But yet, my Mother, this is not enough. One fear I have which troubles me: that I may fall into sin again and lose the grace of God.

The dangers are constant; my enemies never sleep; and new temptations will assail me. O my Lady, protect me. Help me in the assaults of Hell, so I may never again offend thy Divine Son Jesus.

Let not the same thing happen again, that I lose my soul, Heaven, and God. This is the grace I beg of thee, O Mary; this is what I long for; obtain this grace for me through thy prayers. Amen.
Thus, I hope. Thus, may it be."

DEDICATION OF A FAMILY TO MARY "Most Blessed Virgin Mary, Immaculate Queen and Mother, the refuge and consolation of all troubled souls! I kneel here before thee with my family and choose thee for my Lady, Mother, and Advocate with God.

I dedicate myself and all who belong to me to thy service forever. I beg thee, O Mother of God, to receive us into the company of thy servants. Take us under thy protection. Help us in life and at the hour of our death.

Mother of Mercy, I name thee Lady and Queen of my family and relatives, my interests and all my undertakings. Take charge of them; dispose of everything as it pleases thee.

Bless me and all my family. Never let any of us offend thy Son. In every temptation defend us; protect us in every danger; provide for us in the necessities of life; counsel us in doubt; comfort us in every sorrow, in every sickness, and especially in the final sorrow of death.

Never let the powers of Hell boast that they have enslaved any of those who here consecrate themselves to thee. Grant that we may all enter into Heaven to thank thee and, in thy company, to praise and love Jesus our Redeemer for all eternity. Amen. Thus, may it be."

DEDICATION OF ONE'S SELF TO MARY "Most Holy Virgin Mary, Mother of God, I am not worthy to be thy servant. But moved by thy marvelous compassion and my own desire to serve thee, here and now, in the presence of my guardian angel and the whole court of Heaven, I choose thee as my Lady, Advocate, and Mother. I firmly purpose to love and serve thee always, and to do all I can to inspire others to love and serve thee.

O Mother of God and my own most compassionate Mother, I beseech thee, by the Blood which thy Son shed for me, to receive me into the number of thy servants as thy child and servant forever. Assist me in all my thoughts, words, and actions in every moment of my life, so that every step I take, every breath I draw, may be directed to the greater glory of my God.

Through your powerful intercession, may I never again offend my beloved Jesus. Help me to love and glorify Him in this life. Help me to love thee also, dear and beloved Mother, and to go on loving thee forever in the happiness of Heaven.

My Mother Mary, I commend my soul to thee now, and especially at the moment of death. Amen."

PRAYER OF CONFIDENCE IN MARY

"Most Holy, Immaculate Virgin and my Mother Mary! To thee who art the Mother of my Lord, the Queen of the world, the Advocate, the Hope, and the Refuge of sinners, I have recourse today, I who am the most miserable of all.

I render thee my most humble homage, O great Queen, and I thank thee for all the graces thou hast conferred on me until now, especially for having delivered me from Hell, which I have so often deserved. I love thee, O most amiable Lady; and for the love which I bear thee, I promise to serve thee always and to do all in my power to make others love thee also. I place in thee all my hopes; I confide my salvation to thy care.

Accept me for thy servant and receive me under thy mantle, O Mother of Mercy. And since thou art so powerful with God, deliver me from all temptations; or rather, obtain for me the strength to triumph over them until death. Of thee I ask a perfect love for Jesus Christ. Through thee I hope to die a good death. O my Mother, by the love which thou bearest to God, I beseech thee to help me at all times, but especially at the last moment of my life. Leave me not, I beseech thee, until thou seest me safe in Heaven, blessing thee and singing thy mercies for all eternity. Amen. Thus, I hope. Thus, may it be."

"Mary Is an Advocate with Power
to Save All
So great is the authority that mothers possess over their sons, that even if they are monarchs, and have absolute dominion over every person in their kingdom, yet never can mothers become the subjects of their sons. It is true that Jesus now in Heaven sits at the right of the Father, enjoying that distinction even as Man because of the hypostatic union with the Person of the Divine Word.

He has supreme dominion over all and also over Mary; nevertheless, it can always be said that for a time at least, when He was living in this world, He was pleased to humble himself and be subject to Mary. Says St. Ambrose, Jesus Christ having deigned to make Mary His Mother, inasmuch as He was her Son, He was truly obliged to obey her. And for this reason, says Richard of St. Laurence, "Of other Saints we say that they are with God; but of Mary alone can it be said that she was so far favored as to be not only herself submissive to the will of God, but even that God was subject to her will.

Therefore we say that, even though Mary can no longer command her Son, since they are not on earth any more, still her prayers are always the prayers of a Mother and are therefore most powerful in obtaining whatever she asks.

At the command of Mary all obey, even God."

Makes me sad to read this stuff....
 
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thereselittleflower

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BBAS 64 said:
Good day, All



Well, while I very genuinely sympathize with how hard it is for those from your perspective to begin to come to terms with how a Christian could pray a prayer like this, for I have been in your shoes, I feel I need to clarify this in order for what I said earlier to not be misconstrued or misunderstood: this does not extend to being sympathetic towards attitudes which are closed off to even trying to understand, especialy when an offer to help has been extended yet ignored.

Since this is your forum, I will not debate your opinions with you here or offer again . . .

I will simply leave you with this saying:

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
:)



Peace
 
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Terri

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Uncle Bud said:
Pretty scary stuff indeed. Anyone here read the "Glories of Mary" yet? shudder...

Makes me sad to read this stuff....

It makes me sad too Uncle Bud. It is a very sad thing to see glory that belongs to God be given to someone else.

Make no mistake people--God will share HIS GLORY with NO ONE!!!
 
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