aReformedPatriot
Ron Paul for President!
mbkndomer said:You speak of perspective. That's precisely the problem here. People are bringing in their own perspective of what the pope was saying as though they had the ability to read his heart. For example, you say that only the Holy Spirit leads one to Jesus. On one level that's true. On another, have you ever heard someone give a testimonial about how their best friend, spouse, mother, father, etc. "led them to Jesus"? Of course, there's not way the pope could have meant this because he's obviously an idolator and wants Mary to supplant the role of the Holy Spirit.
First, Mary is dead and in Heaven. Secondly, your making a distinction between the two (the Spirit, and the Tool God uses) where one seems to act indepnedant of the Spirit, whereas we would not. The Holy Spirit is at the forefront of all this activity and He uses people as a means to an end. Third, we are told: "And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength'" which is the total self, would you agree? Likewise we are never exhorted to make our theme "Totally Yours" in an addressal to Mary.
We reject all tradition associated with Mary.
When I read something, I want to know what the author actually meant. It's clearly a prayer to Mary. In it he asks Mary to dwell in him, and possess his soul. Only God can do these things. Is he being Hyperbolic? Is this an Idiom, some Roman Catholic expression where the literal definitions of the words employed cannot mean what the speaker has said? If so, what does it mean? [EDIT] Above you gave conjecture about different meanings yet you revealed not what the author meant.[/EDIT]
As to another portion mentioned here, how many Baptist ministers mentioning a fellow Christian (or even one who has passed away) has said something to the effect of: "Let's make ourselves an example like _____. Let's let the love they've shown to others show in us as well. Let's speak out bravely for the Word of God as ____ does/did." This is beginning to look a lot like the beat-down argument against praying to saints dressed up in nice contemporary clothing.
Nothing wrong with imitating a Godly person. Does not Paul say "imitate us"? Again two different things. I would never say "Brethren, Bob was a great man who served the Lord with all his heart. As such let us pray to him now, and ask him to dwell in us, to let his thoughts be our thoughts, that he may lead us." No sir, any Baptist whoever said such a thing would be tar and feathered lol.
But yes, part of the argument is that praying to saints is wrong.
I like to read OBOB a lot. It is constantly stated over there that you all don't have convorsations with the saints, its merely asking someone to pray for you. But in the case of Mary, Queen of Heaven, she's obviously exempt from those rules.
I'd like to know precisely the portions of the prayer/poem that people find offensive and why. Is it the "lead me to Jesus" part? Is it the possess my soul part? Is it the desire of the man to reflect the life of the Christian example of Mary? Or is this simply a rehash of the old "praying to saints is wrong" argument (which is what it appears to be)?
ALL of it with a little of "praying to saints is wrong" mixed in. Remove all refrence to Mary and we will love that prayer.
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