Total depravity

[Hammster]

2. Are you saying: God’s “justice” and right, by your understanding of justice and right, to make all these little children guilty of sin which means they are hell bound?

No

 

[Hammster]

3. What makes you think “all” in this verse includes unborn children?

There’s no reason to think otherwise. And context.

 

[Hammster]

5. What verse specifically says: “death is punishment” and not just the product of humans sinning?

“The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭NASB‬‬


For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
— Romans 6:23

 

[dms1972]

Anyone believe in Limbo for the unbaptised?

Limbo - Wikipedia

 

[JLB777]

Noah was righteous because of God. He found favor (grace).

Pelagianism is a man-made doctrine.

Everyone who was declared to be righteous was because of God.




I don’t know what Pelagianism is.

 

[Hammster]

Everyone who was declared to be righteous was because of God.




I don’t know what Pelagianism is.

One of the basics of Reformed Theology is that any righteousness we have comes from God. So Noah being righteous had everything to do with God. When scripture says he found favor, it doesn’t mean that he was a good guy anoints the wicked and so God decided to use him to build the ark.

 

[JLB777]

One of the basics of Reformed Theology is that any righteousness we have comes from God. So Noah being righteous had everything to do with God. When scripture says he found favor, it doesn’t mean that he was a good guy anoints the wicked and so God decided to use him to build the ark.

Noah was declared righteous because he obeyed God and built the Ark.


This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. Genesis 6:9




JLB

 

[Hammster]

Noah was declared righteous because he obeyed God and built the Ark.


This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. Genesis 6:9




JLB

You need to start a little earlier.


The Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.” But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
— Genesis 6:7-8

 

[BobRyan]

I want to ask about this. This is one of the most difficult points of calvinism for me, because if I accept it, will I not just act in a worse way than I would have if I had not heard it? What does the Bible say about this and what does it mean? Jesus said "if you being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly father give good gifts to those who ask him." Matthew 7:11 I wonder if we use the term "evil" differently today, is it not nowadays a term reserved for serial killers and such? Most of us do not like to think of ourselves as evil. Are there degrees of evilness? So what did Jesus mean when he said "if you being evil..." ?

There is as they say "more than a grain of truth" to this idea of total depravity.

All mankind is born with a sinful nature and Romans 8:4-10 makes the case that the lost person "does not submit to the LAW of God neither indeed CAN they"

But in the bible the supernatural work of God in "drawing ALL MANKIND to HIM" John 12:32 more than compensates for the sinful nature of man - it enables the choice that depravity disables. The choice to accept the Gospel, accept the new birth, choose to be a child of God.

and then once having accepted the Gospel - the Holy Spirit empowers us to walk in the Spirit and obey, as Romans 6 and 8 state.

 

[BobRyan]

Noah was declared righteous because he obeyed God and built the Ark.

This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. Genesis 6:9

JLB

True -- but that was the result of the work of the New Birth, the gospel in the life of Noah... it is not that wicked people just "have that ability".

 

[BobRyan]

You need to start a little earlier.


The Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.” But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
— Genesis 6:7-8

the text does not say "the LORD arbitrarily selected the wicked Noah out among all the other wicked people before the flood - made him alone righteous and responded ---hmmmm when I look it occurs to me that only Noah is righteous because I have only changed that one and not the others".

If that was supposed to be the "ah hah" moment for God then He would be having it the second Adam and Eve sinned -- because the only one among sinful fallen man that would be righteous are those He "changed" and that would have been true from day 1 after the fall of man.

 

[BobRyan]

I think I understand it, but read someone saying its better to refer to it as Total Inability. But then is that also saying a person cannot come to Christ, I suppose because Jesus said "No one can come to me except the Father draws him." But what about when the Gospel is being preached, is everyone hearing it not able to respond then, isn't everyone is invited.

Some folks like to imagine what the world would be like if there were no God, no Holy Spirit.. and point out that no one among fallen mankind would just "choose to be righteous" of their own goodness in such an imaginary scenario. And certainly they are right in that regard.

What they miss is that ALL are being supernaturally drawn to God John 12:32 and God is calling all to repent and be saved - supernaturally - such that the drawing of ALL is also the enabling of all to CHOOSE to follow God.

 

[Hammster]

the text does not say "the LORD arbitrarily selected the wicked Noah out among all the other wicked people before the flood - made him alone righteous and responded ---hmmmm when I look it occurs to me that only Noah is righteous because I have only changed that one and not the others".

If that was supposed to be the "ah hah" moment for God then He would be having it the second Adam and Eve sinned -- because the only one among sinful fallen man that would be righteous are those He "changed" and that would have been true from day 1 after the fall of man.

I have no idea what your point is. I never said anything about an ah ha moment. I just posted the verse that said Noah found favor. That’s the equivalent of NT grace.

 

[bling]

I’ll do these one at a time.

No

If there is no "rule" God has to follow then what is the reason for, God to act unjustly by placing the guilt of another ones sins on an unborn innocent child

 

[bling]

No

So are unborn children guilty of sins they have not committed?

 

[bling]

There’s no reason to think otherwise. And context.

Ro. 3: 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
The context of Romans and this passage in particular is to the Jewish and Gentile Christians both being sinners. Unborn babies is not in this context (they do not have “faith in Christ Jesus” nor can they “believe” at this time. Unborn babies have not sinned yet.

So there are lots of reasons to think this verse is not addressing unborn babies.

 

[bling]

“The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭NASB‬‬


For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
— Romans 6:23

If they sin they will die and the wages of sin is death and we see everyone dying eventually, but none of that means: "sin is a punishment" and the question is: "Show me scripture which says death itself is a punishment for the elect?
Is death the way Hamster get to go home?

 

[bling]

I’ll do these one at a time.

You did not address 4
4. Why is “death” punishment for the elect?

 

[BobRyan]

I just posted the verse that said Noah found favor. That’s the equivalent of NT grace.

And I agree that OT grace is seen in Genesis 6 -- just as it is in the NT - my point was that God is not selecting one person to be good and ignoring the rest ... then declaring this is the end of the world in Genesis 6. Because if that were the mechanism He uses -- it was there to use the first day after Adam fell into sin.

In Genesis 6 -- we have a statement of the form "well.. that's it then! I never intended this to happen. I am sorry I made mankind... I will start over with Noah". It is a statement that is of the form "things have gone horribly wrong at this point... nothing left to do but push RESET".

So while it is true that we have grace in Genesis 6... and also grace in Genesis 3 where Adam and Eve are not slain "in the day they eat thereof". It is also true that the situation had melted down until finally 1500 years later it gets to the point of Genesis 6 and the world wide flood

Makes perfect sense in the system where free will is something that God is maintaining for humans.

 

[Hammster]

If there is no "rule" God has to follow then what is the reason for, God to act unjustly by placing the guilt of another ones sins on an unborn innocent child

God doesn’t act unjustly.