Total depravity

[Gup20]

That’s all over the place, but I don’t have the time to deal with it right now.

Pre-emptive shush:

[Rom 8:6-10 NASB] 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so,] 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.​

The "it" in this passage is "the mind set on the flesh." When we set our minds on the flesh, we are not able to please God because the flesh is completely depraved. So we are told to choose to set our minds on the spirit where choices can be made.

Since we know good and evil, and since God's good law is written on our hearts, our hearts are not completely depraved. It can choose.

The choosing is all a heart thing:

[Deu 30:1-2, 6, 10-11, 14-15, 17, 19-20 NASB] 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, 2 and you return to the LORD your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons, ... 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. ... 10 if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul. 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 17 "But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."​

Clearly, we are commanded to choose between life and death, and the place this choice is made is in the heart. We are told this choice is not too difficult for us, and this choice is not made by God in heaven.

[Rom 10:6-10 NASB] 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.​

 

[Gup20]

Good Day, Gup 20

The condition of the heart fundamentally will not allow for any thing "good" or useful to come from it.
Such a heart loves darkness and hates light and therefore is depraved (Heart of stone).

The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

So that man in every thing he intends and all that proceed from him, either in thought, word or deed is evil because of their origination.

It needs to be replaced by God to overcome the reality of this woeful condition. For with out that replacement and putting in of His spirit man can not walk in His statutes, or obey His rules.


EZE 36:26, 27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

In Him

Bill

Hi Bill,

I agree with you, we do choose evil continually. But it is a choice. Why would God judge us for having an evil heart if the heart didn't have a choice? Further, in what sense do we know good as God declares of us in Genesis 3:22?

[Jhn 3:18-21 NASB] 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."​

The notion of total depravity places the blame and responsibility for sin on God rather than on man who chose it. It makes God the sinner rather than man. It makes God the one who chose for man to be sinful, rather than man. The calvinistic notion of total depravity is man trying to escape responsibility for his own sin.

 

[BBAS 64]

Hi Bill,

I agree with you, we do choose evil continually. But it is a choice. Why would God judge us for having an evil heart if the heart didn't have a choice? Further, in what sense do we know good as God declares of us in Genesis 3:22?

Good day, Gup20

It is a choice, unregenerate man makes a choice. They are not judged by the kind of heart but the out working of the intention of the heart which for the unregenerate is only evil every time, all the time.

Just like in Romans 1 man knows God but they suppress (actively) that knowledge. Unregenerate man Hates God and His good they love and are set in their minds and Hearts on the darkness that they love.

[Jhn 3:18-21 NASB] 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Great truth here... What has to happen to make man shun the darkness he loves and embrace the light he hates?​

The notion of total depravity places the blame and responsibility for sin on God rather than on man who chose it. It makes God the sinner rather than man. It makes God the one who chose for man to be sinful, rather than man. The calvinistic notion of total depravity is man trying to escape responsibility for his own sin.

Not sure what definition you are using that would lead you to conclude that. I have read almost every historical confession or catechism on the issue from Owen to the New Hampshire Baptist confession of faith. What source are you using to come up with such an understanding???

How can you expect a heart that is continually attracted to and intentioned on ( continually) doing evil do any thing else but evil?

In Him,

Bill

 

[Gup20]

Not sure what definition you are using that would lead you to conclude that. I have read almost every historical confession or catechism on the issue from Owen to the New Hampshire Baptist confession of faith. What source are you using to come up with such an understanding???

It is my own judgement of the reasoning behind Total Depravity and an observation of those who believe it.

How can you expect a heart that is continually attracted to and intentioned on ( continually) doing evil do any thing else but evil?

The gospel gives the heart this power:

[Rom 1:16 NASB] 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

[Rom 10:10-17 NASB] 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same [Lord] is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" 17 So faith [comes] from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.​

Hearing the gospel gives the heart a choice - to believe or not believe the news they just heard. Choosing to believe what they just heard qualifies you as a descendant of Abraham and an inheritor of the righteousness given to Abraham for his faith:

[Gal 3:6-9 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

[Rom 4:11-13, 16-17 NASB] 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.​

The main purpose to Total Depravity is to disqualify man from making the choice for salvation by saying he is spiritually incapable of the goodness required to have faith. The pervasive thought is that a depraved man's choices cannot influence a Holy and sovereign God. However, faith is not a mystical power that a depraved person is incapable of because faith doesn't qualify a person for righteousness directly. Faith is simply the belief that qualifies a person as an adopted descendant of Abraham, and descendants of Abraham are qualified for righteousness. Therefore the connection between faith and righteousness is an indirect one. When we have the same faith in the gospel that Abraham had, we are considered his descendants... Abraham's seed. We are adopted. Children of Abraham inherit Christ's righteousness which was given to Abraham and promised to be an everlasting inheritance to his descendants. Human adoption doesn't required a regenerated spirit. God's promise to Abraham that his descendants would inherit the righteousness he was given is God's motivation for saving Abraham's offspring. John Calvin himself said of God's elect that we had been given an example of it in the whole offspring of Abraham... Calvin just didn't realize that all Christians are saved by becoming qualified as descendants of Abraham.

God made Abraham righteous directly for his faith. Everyone else who will be saved and resurrected to eternal life (including the crucified Christ himself) gain their righteousness through that kinship, not directly as Abraham did. This is how the righteousness of one man (Jesus) is distributed to the many. The descendants of Abraham are the chosen group, but what many don't realize is that group has open enrollment based on whether or not you believe the gospel.

 

[renniks]

He could throw three ropes to each man, but only one accepts the help, the others try to get out of difficulty on their own, but drown. That was Geisler's view, he refered to himself as a moderate calvinist. He said God doesn't force his love on us.

Sounds like he's actually an arminian. If he offers to save all, but some refuse, that's in no way calvinism. Wesleyans would probably agree with that version, as do I.

 

[JLB777]

Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”

Just in case you missed it, this was also applied to, you guessed it, Noahs and his descendants.

Your joking right?


The verse you quoted was applied to the Nephilim, not Noah and his descendants!

It was because of Noah that God spared mankind.


Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. Genesis 6:1-8


Here is the testimony that the Lord has about Noah —


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7



JLB

 

[Hazelelponi]

Your joking right?

No but if your not joking it's definitely worth crying tears of mourning over, that there be some out there with such poor knowledge of the Word of God.

The verse you quoted was applied to the Nephilim, not Noah and his descendants!

Exactly what do you think "the nephilim" is? Since the question and the answer is off topic, perhaps a new thread would be in order instead of taking this one this far off topic.

It was because of Noah that God spared mankind.

Noah was saved by Grace through faith, as we are today.

Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

Yes, that's what the Bible says.

But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. Genesis 6:1-8

Grace. Yes. The same Grace you receive when you believe upon the Messiah for salvation. Grace.

Here is the testimony that the Lord has about Noah —

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

Yep. True, true.

 

[Gup20]

It was because of Noah that we can have Christ's righteousness imputed to us, and thus not all fall under God's wrath...
...
Grace. Yes. The same Grace you receive when you believe upon the Messiah for salvation. Grace.
...

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

Yep. True, true.

I'm curious what you mean by "it is because of Noah that we can have Christ's righteousness imputed to us." It says Noah was an "heir of the righteousness which is according to faith" so it sounds like it is not because of Noah that we are imputed Christ's righteousness, but it is because of Noah's father from whom he inherited righteousness that we can have Christ's righteousness imputed to us. Who is Noah's father?

 

[Hammster]

No but if your not joking it's definitely worth crying tears of mourning over, that there be some out there with such poor knowledge of the Word of God.




Exactly what do you think "the nephilim" is? Since the question and the answer is off topic, perhaps a new thread would be in order instead of taking this one this far off topic.



It was because of Noah that we can have Christ's righteousness imputed to us, and thus not all fall under God's wrath...




Yes, that's what the Bible says.



Grace. Yes. The same Grace you receive when you believe upon the Messiah for salvation. Grace.




Yep. True, true.

I think it’s safer to say that Noah was saved by grace through faith, just like we are today. In other words, he was also one of thr wicked ones.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I think it’s safer to say that Noah was saved by grace through faith, just like we are today. In other words, he was also one of thr wicked ones.

Yeah probably a better word choice that.. I'll change it up some.

 

[bling]

Can I ask something else - you say that God unhardens people by the preaching of the Gospel, then everyone is hardened to begin with, but is that the case with little children, is it not the case that people harden their hearts, meaning they were not as hard to begin with? Is there a point beyond which a person cannot be unhardened?

The Bible for the most part does not address little Children’s spirituality, God considers them worthy of saving: Jonah 4:11 And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?”

The guilty are the ones who sin.

Innocent children will rebel and be disobedient to their parents at some time in their life?

The same actions that of God that soften one person’s heart can harden another person’s heart so it is not God’s fault.

Yes, there does come a time in the sinner’s life when God has done all he can to provide the very best opportunity for that person to humble themselves to the point of accepting God’s charity, but repeatedly refuse, but only God would know when that point was reached. Those individual take on the less objective of helping others to accept God’s help, which can be by being an example of what you do not want to be.

 

[Hammster]

The guilty are the ones who sin.

The wages of sin is death. Children die because the sin of Adam is imputed to them.

 

[bling]

The wages of sin is death. Children die because the sin of Adam is imputed to them.

Adam and Eve’s sin resulted in the need for death, part of the wage (payment) for sinning is death, so death came to all humans, but it is because “all” (mature adults) sin. If some people did not uncontrollably die at any age, people would lack a huge incentive to repent, trust in God, seek God’s help/mercy/grace/Love/forgiveness and the gift of eternal life. Unfortunately, death becomes necessary and beneficial to humans. Some innocent little children thus must die, to help some mature adult sinners to make the choice of wimping out, giving up and surrender partly out of fear they will die in their sinful state.

Do you feel little children are not innocent?

Do you feel some or all little children, if they die are hell bound?

Do you feel a little child is in a safe situation or needs salvation?

Do you see any difference between a little child who goes to heaven (if they do go) and an forgiven sinner who goes to heaven?

 

[BBAS 64]

Adam and Eve’s sin resulted in the need for death, part of the wage (payment) for sinning is death, so death came to all humans, but it is because “all” (mature adults) sin. If some people did not uncontrollably die at any age, people would lack a huge incentive to repent, trust in God, seek God’s help/mercy/grace/Love/forgiveness and the gift of eternal life. Unfortunately, death becomes necessary and beneficial to humans. Some innocent little children thus must die, to help some mature adult sinners to make the choice of wimping out, giving up and surrender partly out of fear they will die in their sinful state.

Do you feel little children are not innocent?

Do you feel some or all little children, if they die are hell bound?

Do you feel a little child is in a safe situation or needs salvation?

Do you see any difference between a little child who goes to heaven (if they do go) and an forgiven sinner who goes to heaven?

Good Day, Bling

Innocent not at all.... do you have children?


Al people who are saved from their fallen reality in Adam are saved and in heaven due to the Grace and goodness of God Himself. There is no age restrictions when it comes to the need of Grace.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Hammster]

Do you feel little children are not innocent?

All children are in Adam.


Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned⁠— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
— Romans 5:12-14

 

[bling]

Good Day, Bling

Innocent not at all.... do you have children?


Al people who are saved from their fallen reality in Adam are saved and in heaven due to the Grace and goodness of God Himself. There is no age restrictions when it comes to the need of Grace.

In Him,

Bill

is the unborn child innocent?

 

[Hammster]

is the unborn child innocent?

No.

 

[bling]

All children are in Adam.


Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned⁠— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
— Romans 5:12-14

As usual you did not address my questions.

Let me ask you: Is an unborn child innocent?

You quote:

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned⁠— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

— Romans 5:12-14

Paul specifically explains: “because all sinned”, but like you have shown before “all” does not have to mean even unborn children, but could be just referring to mature adults or the “elect”. Paul did not say: “because Adam sinned”, but “because all sinned”, so do we take the blame off ourselves and put it on Adam?

 

[bling]

No.

It is truly sad you feel that way.
Do you think it is just of God to consider an unborn child guilty of sin?

 

[Hammster]

As usual you did not address my questions.

Let me ask you: Is an unborn child innocent?

You quote:

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned⁠— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

— Romans 5:12-14

Paul specifically explains: “because all sinned”, but like you have shown before “all” does not have to mean even unborn children, but could be just referring to mature adults or the “elect”. Paul did not say: “because Adam sinned”, but “because all sinned”, so do we take the blame off ourselves and put it on Adam?

I guess you didn’t read all of it.

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

We are sinners because we commit sin. We sin because we are sinners. It’s our nature from birth. And we know that there’s death because of sin. That’s why children die.