Total depravity

[Hammster]

So are unborn children guilty of sins they have not committed?

I’ll agree with Paul here.


Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned⁠— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
— Romans 5:12-14

 

[BobRyan]

If there is no "rule" God has to follow then what is the reason for, God to act unjustly by placing the guilt of another ones sins on an unborn innocent child

God's Word sets the rule. Before He gives his word -- he can choose anything he likes. But being deceptive and untrue to His own Word - is not an option for Him. He can't do that and still be "just and true"

 

[Hammster]

Ro. 3: 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
The context of Romans and this passage in particular is to the Jewish and Gentile Christians both being sinners. Unborn babies is not in this context (they do not have “faith in Christ Jesus” nor can they “believe” at this time. Unborn babies have not sinned yet.

So there are lots of reasons to think this verse is not addressing unborn babies.

Unborn babies are with Jew or Gentile.

 

[BobRyan]

Ok let me restate and restate the questions:


1. Do you feel there is some unique “cosmic law” out there which God did not create, or He thoughtlessly created, which requires God to be unjustly, by the biblical description of unjust, in that an innocent (innocent in that the child has personally not sinned) unborn child is guilty for Adam’s sin?

God set the rule in Genesis 2 - "in the day you eat thereof - you shall surely die".

So then Adam crossed the line and instead of killing him on the spot - God granted Him life and mercy - temporary life on Earth.

Many babies died at the flood.

"In the life is appointed unto man once to die - and then comes the judgment". Heb 9

Noah and 7 other people survived the flood - all the rest died... and then... Noah and all his family also died. Because even in cases where someone's life is spared - "In the life is appointed unto man once to die - and then comes the judgment".

2. Are you saying: God’s “justice” and right, by your understanding of justice and right, to make all these little children guilty of sin which means they are hell bound?

1. they need a savior.
2. They have a savior.

 

[Hammster]

If they sin they will die and the wages of sin is death and we see everyone dying eventually, but none of that means: "sin is a punishment" and the question is: "Show me scripture which says death itself is a punishment for the elect?
Is death the way Hamster get to go home?

If you are correct, the only way to heaven is to sin.

You seem to be thinking of wages as a positive thing. It’s not. It’s what is deserved.

But here’s more.

For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,
— Hebrews 2:2-3


For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
— 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9


For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
— Romans 1:26-27

 

[Hammster]

4. Why is “death” punishment for the elect?

The elect aren’t punished.

 

[Hammster]

And I agree that OT grace is seen in Genesis 6 -- just as it is in the NT - my point was that God is not selecting one person to be good and ignoring the rest ... then declaring this is the end of the world in Genesis 6. Because if that were the mechanism He uses -- it was there to use the first day after Adam fell into sin.

God doesn’t have to do it your way. And He did show favor to Adam.

 

[BobRyan]

God doesn’t have to do it your way.

He has to do it according to His own Word -- the very thing He Himself claims He does.

I did not author Genesis 6 or Ezek 18 .. God did.

 

[Hammster]

He has to do it according to His own Word -- the very thing He Himself claims He does

And He showed grace to Adam and Noah.

 

[BobRyan]

And He showed grace to Adam and Noah.

And Enoch and all mankind that lived instead of died... and Noah was a "preacher of righteousness" that was not merely "preaching to himself".

"God so loved THE WORLD that He gave"... yes really. Which is the fundamental point of difference we have with Calvinism.

 

[bling]

God's Word sets the rule. Before He gives his word -- he can choose anything he likes. But being deceptive and untrue to His own Word - is not an option for Him. He can't do that and still be "just and true"

God dosnot lie.

 

[Hammster]

And Enoch and all mankind that lived instead of died... and Noah was a "preacher of righteousness" that was not merely "preaching to himself".

"God so loved THE WORLD that He gave"... yes really. Which is the fundamental point of difference we have with Calvinism.

I have no idea what you are arguing for. Or against?

 

[bling]

The elect aren’t punished.

Great we finally agree on something!!!

We still differ since I say: “The elect are not punished, because death is not punishment for the elect”.

But

You insist on “Death is punishment”, but you now turn and say: “The elect are not punished”, so to reconcile those two would you not have to say: “The elect do not die”, so is that what you are saying?

 

[bling]

God set the rule in Genesis 2 - "in the day you eat thereof - you shall surely die".

So then Adam crossed the line and instead of killing him on the spot - God granted Him life and mercy - temporary life on Earth.

Many babies died at the flood.

"In the life is appointed unto man once to die - and then comes the judgment". Heb 9

Noah and 7 other people survived the flood - all the rest died... and then... Noah and all his family also died. Because even in cases where someone's life is spared - "In the life is appointed unto man once to die - and then comes the judgment".




1. they need a savior.
2. They have a savior.

If unborn children are innocent then they do not need to be saved.

 

[bling]

Unborn babies are with Jew or Gentile.

He is talking to believers and unborn babies cannot believer or not believe.

 

[Hammster]

Great we finally agree on something!!!

We still differ since I say: “The elect are not punished, because death is not punishment for the elect”.

But

You insist on “Death is punishment”, but you now turn and say: “The elect are not punished”, so to reconcile those two would you not have to say: “The elect do not die”, so is that what you are saying?

No.

 

[Hammster]

If unborn children are innocent then they do not need to be saved.

If they were innocent they wouldn’t die.

 

[Hammster]

He is talking to believers and unborn babies cannot believer or not believe.

So only believers have sinned?

 

[bling]

No.

What are you saying to reconcile the two?

 

[bling]

So only believers have sinned?

Believers have sinned, both Jewish and Gentile Christians have sinned and that is who Paul is addressing in Romans 3. We read other places nonbelievers who reject God's Love also sinned.