Total depravity

[Gup20]

Then read this about choice:


as it is written,
“There is none righteous, not even one;
There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
“Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
“Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
“Their feet are swift to shed blood,
Destruction and misery are in their paths,
And the path of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
— Romans 3:10-18

That is to corroborate the notion that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." It doesn't mean no one has ever done good... this is preposterous, we see unsaved people do good all the time. It is to say that even the good they do isn't good enough because they chose to sin.

[Gen 3:22 NASB] 22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--

[Rom 2:14-15 NASB] 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

[Deu 30:1, 14-15, 19 NASB] 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

So even the unsaved know what is good, and have the law (which is good) written in their hearts. It is not that they are incapable of good, or don't know good... it is that they choose not to do good. So it is not that they are so depraved they can't make the choice... they are depraved because they made the wrong one.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:20

we get to choose if we will open the door.

That's a specific call to God's church who need to repent, not to unbelievers who need salvation...

 

[Hammster]

So even the unsaved know what is good, and have the law (which is good) written in their hearts. It is not that they are incapable of good, or don't know good... it is that they choose not to do good. So it is not that they are so depraved they can't make the choice... they are depraved because they made the wrong one.

So how does one go from a depraved state (and I’ll hold you to this statement) to an undepraved state?

 

[Bobber]

I think it is the same, actually. Spiritual death is eternally separate from God. There's a "can't" implied that only God can rectify.

People that don't accept Calvinistic theology are not saying God wasn't the one who had to initiate salvation and that man could do it. They're saying God had to do it BUT we're not so depraved that we can't choose to receive his grace. One thing for certain it takes humility to get saved. But God doesn't just bust right in there to set pride aside.

Scripture states God resists the proud but gives his grace to the humble. James 4:6 It doesn't say anything about that he blesses them regardless. So men choose to receive the grace of God or to act upon what God does offer them. If they'll do that God will do what only God can do....recreate their spirits causing them to be born again and blot out their sins.

 

[Hammster]

People that don't accept Calvinistic theology are not saying God wasn't the one who had to initiate salvation and that man could do it. They're saying God had to do it BUT we're not so depraved that we can't choose to receive his grace. One thing for certain it takes humility to get saved. But God doesn't just bust right in there to set pride aside.

Scripture states God resists the proud but gives his grace to the humble. James 4:6 It doesn't say anything about that he blesses them regardless. So men choose to receive the grace of God or to act upon what God does offer them. If they'll do that God will do what only God can do....recreate their spirits causing them to be born again and blot out their sins.

James 4 is for those in Christ, not the basis of grace given to the unregenerate.


What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members? You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures. You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: “He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us”? But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, “God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
— James 4:1-7

 

[Hazelelponi]

Total depravity is a man made term, not found in the Bible.


In Christ, we have a new nature empowered by the Spirit, so that we can do what we could not do without it... which is to practice righteousness; to walk according to the Spirit.


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16



JLB

Genesis 6:5: “Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”

Just in case you missed it, this was also applied to, you guessed it, Noahs and his descendants.

“the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth” (Genesis 8:21)

1. WHAT TOTAL DEPRAVITY IS NOT:
Total depravity does not mean that people are as wicked and sinful as they could be. Nor does it mean that people are incapable of doing good deeds. Even those who have never heard of Jesus Christ are able to love their children and even sacrifice their own lives for the sake of family, friends, or sometimes even for strangers. Many people who do not know Christ are honest, even when it costs them.

2. WHAT TOTAL DEPRAVITY MEANS:
Total depravity refers to the nature of fallen persons, not to their deeds. The word “total” refers to the total person--that every aspect of the person--mind, will, emotions, body--is corrupted by sin; and to the total human race, that every person since Adam and Eve, except for Jesus Christ, has been born with a nature that is alienated from God and in rebellion against God. Also, depravity must be viewed in relation to God, not by comparing men with men. With reference to God, total depravity means that no one is able in and of himself to do anything to choose God, to seek God, to please God, to love God, to glorify God, or to merit His salvation. Left to himself, every person will seek the things of self and sin. We are as unable to seek God as a corpse can choose to get up and walk (Ephesians 2:1-3)

Lesson 15: Total Depravity (Genesis 6:5; 8:21) | Bible.org

 

[Bobber]

James 4 is for those in Christ, not the basis of grace given to the unregenerate.

Don't agree. Yes the book of James was written for Christians BUT pride or humility has always been thing God watches in humans from the dawn of time....long before the body of Christ came about. From the start where PRIDE was found in Lucifer, to the time when Adam & Eve choose pride by going against the humility of accepting as fact what God said, to the time of all the Gentile leaders of Empires that could have chosen humility but rather chose PRIDE. Some on the other hand did choose humility and honoured the God of HEAVEN. Again God resists the PROUD but gives his grace to the HUMBLE. That choice men can make. So yes men have a corrupt nature but not in the way that some men define it.

 

[Hammster]

Don't agree. Yes the book of James was written for Christians BUT pride or humility has always been thing God watches in humans from the dawn of time....long before the body of Christ came about. From the start where PRIDE was found in Lucifer, to the time when Adam & Eve choose pride by going against the humility of accepting as fact what God said, to the time of all the Gentile leaders of Empires that could have chosen humility but rather chose PRIDE. Some on the other hand did choose humility and honoured the God of HEAVEN. Again God resists the PROUD but gives his grace to the HUMBLE. That choice men can make. So yes men have a corrupt nature but not in the way that some men define it.

You can disagree. But I showed the context. It has nothing to do with what you are saying.

 

[Gup20]

So how does one go from a depraved state (and I’ll hold you to this statement) to an undepraved state?

At the resurrection. Until then we have depraved flesh and a renewed spirit (for those who have believed and after believing received righteousness so that the Holy Spirit could dwell in them). Until the resurrection we will continue to have a dual nature.

[Rom 8:10 NASB] 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

[Heb 4:12 NASB] 12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

[Rom 7:18-25 NASB] 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good [is] not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

[Act 11:16-17 NASB] 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as [He gave] to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"

[Eph 1:13-14 NASB] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

[Rom 8:15-17 NASB] 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]

[Deu 30:19 NASB] 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

Notice the parallel between Romans 8:16 and Deuteronomy 30:19. I call heaven (The Spirit) and earth (our spirit) to witness (testifies) the choice you make for salvation. (Synergistic)

Notice it says in Acts 11 and Ephesians 1 that the indwelling of the spirit comes AFTER one has believed.

Notice Romans 8:10, Hebrews 4:12, and Romans 7:18-25 talk about the division of our flesh and spirit and that our spirit being alive and wants to do good while our flesh is depraved and only wants evil continually. This speaks to our dual nature.

 

[Hammster]

At the resurrection. Until then we have depraved flesh and a renewed spirit (for those who have believed and after believing received righteousness so that the Holy Spirit could dwell in them). Until the resurrection we will continue to have a dual nature.

Who is “we”?

 

[Gup20]

God judges the thoughs and intentions of the heart. This is why faith is not a work. Because the heart is where choices are made. The heart is not totally depraved.

[Rom 8:10 NASB] 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

[Heb 4:12 NASB] 12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

[Gen 3:22 NASB] 22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--

[Rom 2:14-16 NASB] 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.​

Since we "know" good (and not only evil), and since God's law is written on the heart of every person (not just believers), we can say that the heart is not totally depraved. It knows good, and has the good law written on it so that it is able to choose. The flesh is totally depraved. It is the heart that chooses God or not God, not the flesh.

[Rom 10:5-11 NASB] 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."​

 

[Gup20]

Who is “we”?

All human beings (saved and unsaved) have totally depraved flesh. No human beings have a totally depraved spirit. All humans know good, and have God's good law written on their heart, so they can make the choice God commands each of us to make between life & death, blessing & cursing. Once we choose to believe, God gives us righteousness and once we are made righteous, the Holy Spirit can dwell in us.

 

[Hammster]

All human beings (saved and unsaved) have totally depraved flesh. No human beings have a totally depraved spirit. All humans know good, and have God's good law written on their heart, so they can make the choice God commands each of us to make between life & death, blessing & cursing. Once we choose to believe, God gives us righteousness and once we are made righteous, the Holy Spirit can dwell in us.

All humans have a renewed spirit?

 

[Gup20]

All humans have a renewed spirit?

No, all human beings have duality of spirit... a spirit that knows about good and evil and can make choices that are either good or evil. The flesh cannot make these choices, but the heart can.

Once a person believes, they are given righteousness and all depravity is removed from the spirit and the spirit is completely renewed. Once the spirit is renewed, the Holy Spirit can dwell in us (for what fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness). We are in a sense reborn with a new spirit. The Holy Spirit and our newly righteous spirit can join making a new creature that is, in a sense, made of the spiritual DNA of each.

 

[hedrick]

Then read this about choice:


as it is written,
“There is none righteous, not even one;
There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;...

This is a common quote. I have two issues with it

1. It cites the OT passage out of context. The Psalmist was discouraged because of the bad state of religion at the time. This was not a doctrinal statement for him.
2. In the context of Romans the point is that everyone needs God's grace. No one can earn God's love. If we were justified by works, they would need to be perfect. The quotation from Ps 14 says that they can't be. But we aren't. I think all Christians agree that we can't earn God's acceptance by the perfection of our works. The more specific claims of Total Inability go beyond that, and do appear to contradict Rom 2.

Over time I've come to the conclusion that I reject the whole context that Total Inability come out of. I don't think we need to earn God's love, nor do I think he demands moral perfection. As far as I can see, God cares about everyone and is willing to forgive the things we do. But there are some who reject him and even the gracious demands that he makes on us. I think it's incoherent to say (as most Calvinists do) that God accepts all children, but suddenly we become responsible and the whole scheme changes. As children, God loves us and forgives us. As adults, we'd need an impossible pre-fall moral perfection in order to be able to respond to God in a saving way, and of course we don't have that. You can pull quotes out of context from Romans and Galatians to support this, but it's impossible for me to believe that Jesus actually intended anything like it.

 

[Hammster]

This is a common quote. I have two issues with it

1. It cites the OT passage out of context. The Psalmist was discouraged because of the bad state of religion at the time. This was not a doctrinal statement for him.

Paul, as an apostle, gets to determine context.

 

[Hammster]

No, all human beings have duality of spirit... a spirit that knows about good and evil and can make choices that are either good or evil. The flesh cannot make these choices, but the heart can.

Once a person believes, they are given righteousness and all depravity is removed from the spirit and the spirit is completely renewed. Once the spirit is renewed, the Holy Spirit can dwell in us (for what fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness). We are in a sense reborn with a new spirit. The Holy Spirit and our newly righteous spirit can join making a new creature that is, in a sense, made of the spiritual DNA of each.

That’s all over the place, but I don’t have the time to deal with it right now.

 

[hedrick]

Paul, as an apostle, gets to determine context.

Sure, and the context in which he used it doesn't support Total Depravity.

 

[Hammster]

Sure, and the context in which he used it doesn't support Total Depravity.

And we would be in disagreement.

 

[BBAS 64]

God judges the thoughs and intentions of the heart. This is why faith is not a work. Because the heart is where choices are made. The heart is not totally depraved.

[Rom 8:10 NASB] 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

[Heb 4:12 NASB] 12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

[Gen 3:22 NASB] 22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--

[Rom 2:14-16 NASB] 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.​

Since we "know" good (and not only evil), and since God's law is written on the heart of every person (not just believers), we can say that the heart is not totally depraved. It knows good, and has the good law written on it so that it is able to choose. The flesh is totally depraved. It is the heart that chooses God or not God, not the flesh.

[Rom 10:5-11 NASB] 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."​

Good Day, Gup 20

The condition of the heart fundamentally will not allow for any thing "good" or useful to come from it.
Such a heart loves darkness and hates light and therefore is depraved (Heart of stone).

The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

So that man in every thing he intends and all that proceed from him, either in thought, word or deed is evil because of their origination.

It needs to be replaced by God to overcome the reality of this woeful condition. For with out that replacement and putting in of His spirit man can not walk in His statutes, or obey His rules.


EZE 36:26, 27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

In Him

Bill