Torah debates

[Zeek]

They will be back ... most likely under yet another username .

Why should any of us bother...you don't want a debate or a serious argument, you simply want to insult and accuse...like insinuating here we would need to come in under another username. There is no point in debating when this is the attitude, but I can assure you if I think there is another thread on the subject worth contributing to then I will not shy away from it and will have the same user-name.

 

[bugkiller]

Why should any of us bother...you don't want a debate or a serious argument, you simply want to insult and accuse...like insinuating here we would need to come in under another username. There is no point in debating when this is the attitude, but I can assure you if I think there is another thread on the subject worth contributing to then I will not shy away from it and will have the same user-name.

If this is not you, why are you taking offense?

Just read thru GT and see who is doing the personal attacks. It is not the pro grace people condemning others. I do see them asking pointed questions about the pro law camps position. If one promotes something why should it be wrong to hold them personnally accountable to it? Did Jesus do that? If we are to do what Jesus did, why can we not do it as well? Does having to answer to the law for others to see cause a problem? That is not attacking an individual. Falsely saying an individual is not a Christian because they do not follow a covenant having no jurisdiction is attacking them. Violating a law that has no jurisdiction is not sin whether it be the law or a law. So not submitting to the law does not affect salvation. Both we and Jews including the rest of Israel have been delivered from the law and its condemnation as Christians.

bugkiller

 

[Mazock]

All of these recurring threads debating Torah illustrate the confusion within the Christian church about the Old Testament.

After 2000 years, man is still trying to reconcile the teaching of man vs the word of God.

Some of us are getting close, while others cling to the traditions of man.

 

[Mazock]

I agree with Zazal

 

[annier]

All of these recurring threads debating Torah illustrate the confusion within the Christian church about the Old Testament.

After 2000 years, man is still trying to reconcile the teaching of man vs the word of God.

Some of us are getting close, while others cling to the traditions of man.

And this is the very sort of attitude which bugkiller spoke of. We can see your fellow one law Mazock agrees in such.

 

[annier]

Nice try but I posted before you asked that.
The law is not the covenant.
When you learn that, you might begin to understand.

MATTHEW 5
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy , but to fulfil .

Notice that these breakers and doers have two things in common.
They both have the commandments and they are both in the kingdom.

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:

but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Now this being the case, where does that leave somebody who does not have them?

Answer: Outta the kingdom.


Nuff said. Unsubscribing.

The law is the WAY in which the covenant (ten commands) were to be carried out. Law, is no law if it has no governing authorities which to enforce it. Moses law (aka jewish law) is law given to the nation of Israel, a nation consisting of 12 tribes. Law which was given them to carry out their covenant commands.
An example of what I am telling you here is very simple.....
All nations have laws which are universal.
All nations have laws concerning marriage. But...Not all nations have the same statutes which define what marriage is.....what adultry is...what fornication is..... Certainly we can see this in scripture of the law of Moses.
One nation, as is the case with Israel under the law, may have polygamy as marriage. Where in another nation, having more than one wife, would be adultery. Both nations have laws concerning BOTH. And both nations uphold one, and frown upon the other. Neither nation classifying polygamy as fornication. But it is their specific laws which determione which is which.

 

[bugkiller]

All of these recurring threads debating Torah illustrate the confusion within the Christian church about the Old Testament.

After 2000 years, man is still trying to reconcile the teaching of man vs the word of God.

Some of us are getting close, while others cling to the traditions of man.

Do you really mean organized religion? There have always been outsiders coming into the church and teaching heresy to develop a personal following and fill their pockets.

bugkiller

 

[someguy14]

Jesus says that God's law is good. Man's law maybe flawed. God's law is always good.

Revelation 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

 

[squint]

All of these recurring threads debating Torah illustrate the confusion within the Christian church about the Old Testament.

After 2000 years, man is still trying to reconcile the teaching of man vs the word of God.

Some of us are getting close, while others cling to the traditions of man.

Understanding is very far from an easy gig.

Let's face a few facts about what happened to those to whom the Law came.

ALL but 2 of them over the age of 20 died in the desert because of unbelief.

I personally find the odds of survival under that rule to be exceptionally thin don't you?

?

s

 

[bugkiller]

Understanding is very far from an easy gig.

Let's face a few facts about what happened to those to whom the Law came.

ALL but 2 of them over the age of 20 died in the desert because of unbelief.

I personally find the odds of survival under that rule to be exceptionally thin don't you?

?

s

Say that is a nice picture of you in your siggy.

bugkiller

 

[annier]

Not quite so fast there. The garments the priests wore were not of mixed fibers. Each item was an entirely different garment.

bugkiller

Just now seen this. Yes the priest garments were of mixed fabric. Josephus records this, the talmud, as well the temple institute reading all things necessary for the priesthood today.
An excerpt from the Temple institute;
"The ephod and breastplate were made of all five materials. Thus the Bible states regarding each, "And they shall make the ephod of gold, sky-blue, dark-red and crimson dyed wool, and twisted linen" and "And you shall make the breastplate of judgment, the work of an artist; after the manner of the ephod shall you make it: of gold, sky-blue, dark-red, and crimson dyed wool, and of twisted linen shall you make it" (Ex. 28:6,15)."

And another here
"in regard to clothes. This law is contradicted by the fact that the high priest.s
vestments .and to a minor degree the other priests. vestments (girdle).were made
with .stu
s. that constituted Mixed Kinds (Ex 28:5-6, regarding the high-priest;
28:40-43, concerning other priests; and 39.27-29). The drapes inside the Temple
also contained Mixed Kinds but it would seem that this does not violate the law,​

since they are not clothes.

3

​

​

As demonstrated by M. Haran, the strict correspondance between the various
kinds of priestly garments and the various kinds of decorations inside the Temple
was another way of demonstrating the unity signi ed by the rituals themselves.​

​

4

​

​

M.Haran.s research makes it obvious that the closer one was to the inner sanctuary,
the more thoroughly Mixed Kinds applied, except that this technical word was
not used.​

​

5 Mixed Kinds applied most strictly to the high-priest, but perhaps also

to other priests, to a minor degree. M.Haran thinks that only the high-priest wore
wool and linen.​

​

6 Indeed, Ex 39:29 may have only applied originally to Aaron and

his sons, i.e., the successive high-priests. But there are some grounds to believe
that other priests as well wore Mixed Kinds, namely a girdle of wool, in the Temple
precincts. This was at least true in the Second Temple period and believed to be so
afterwards, when the Jewish understanding was that priests wore Mixed Kinds.​

​

7

​

​

The diculty in describing the historical development should not mask the real
issue, which is that priests were to wear Mixed Kinds. M. Haran did not dwell on
the contradiction inherent to the wearing of Mixed Kinds, except to say that .this
mixture of stu
is actually an ancient mark of the holiness of these accessories, as
is precisely shown by the prohibitions in Lev. xix, 19 and Deut. xxii, 9, 11..​

​

8 The

question needing to be addressed is: How did this mixture mark holiness?
The command towear fringes, traditionally regarded as summarizing the whole
Law, was also contradictory with the prohibition of Mixed Kinds, as practiced until
the talmudic period. This is clear enough from the biblical texts alone, Num 15:38
​

​

3​

​

Unless they originally were conceived of as clothes of the deity. It would be interesting to know

if Deuteronomy law was narrower than previous formulations.
​

​

4​

​

.The Complex of Ritual Acts Performed Inside the Tabernacle,. Scripta Hierosolymitana 8 (1961)

272. More recently, his ​

​

Temples and Temple-Service in Ancient Israel, reprinted with minor corrections

from 1978 original (Oxford: Clarendon) Winona Lake, Indiana: Eisenbrauns (1985) 165-74, 211-12, and
​

​

passim.
5​

​

Temples and Temple-Service in Ancient Israel, p. 211.

​

​

6​

​

He is followed by L. Oppenheim, .Essay on Overland Trade in the First Millenium B.C.,. JCS 21

(1967) 247, note 59.
​

​

7​

​

In his description of priestly robes, Josephus speaks of pure linen for the warp, and of owers of

diverse hues in the weft: ​

​

AJ 3:154. In AJ4:208, he simply states that Mixed Kinds were reserved to

priests. See also ​

​

mKil. 9:1, quoted below; bYoma 69a. There are also interesting later traditions, for

instance the hymn attributed to Rabbi Yonai in the Palestinian Talmud.​

8Art. cit. supra, p.281.

​

 

[Steve Petersen]

The prohibition on mixed fabrics may be because only priestly garments were to be made that way. Not for the commoner.

In this way, it is similar to prohibition on making incense that is the same as that used in the Tabernacle/Temple (Exodus 30:37.)

 

[Frogster]

The prohibition on mixed fabrics may be because only priestly garments were to be made that way. Not for the commoner.

In this way, it is similar to prohibition on making incense that is the same as that used in the Tabernacle/Temple (Exodus 30:37.)

in lev 19, and deut 22, it seems pretty general, to all the public, it does not indicate it was about the priests.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

So it seems there is always a good Torah vs. Torahlessness debate going on in this section (including the Sabbath debate as well). I've seen both sides of the battleground and sympathize towards the logic of both. But logic wont answer the ever present debate of whether or not Torah (any part, all parts, some parts) is for today. So just how important to you is this matter personally? Not tearing anyone down, just getting a feel for the why behind the big debate.

Because supernaturally . apart from the law . sin is dead . it's part of a plumbline that the darkness uses to slowly choke the life out of people .

 

[bugkiller]

So it seems there is always a good Torah vs. Torahlessness debate going on in this section (including the Sabbath debate as well). I've seen both sides of the battleground and sympathize towards the logic of both. But logic wont answer the ever present debate of whether or not Torah (any part, all parts, some parts) is for today. So just how important to you is this matter personally? Not tearing anyone down, just getting a feel for the why behind the big debate.

I see it as a salvation issue.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Just now seen this. Yes the priest garments were of mixed fabric. Josephus records this, the talmud, as well the temple institute reading all things necessary for the priesthood today.
An excerpt from the Temple institute;
"The ephod and breastplate were made of all five materials. Thus the Bible states regarding each, "And they shall make the ephod of gold, sky-blue, dark-red and crimson dyed wool, and twisted linen" and "And you shall make the breastplate of judgment, the work of an artist; after the manner of the ephod shall you make it: of gold, sky-blue, dark-red, and crimson dyed wool, and of twisted linen shall you make it" (Ex. 28:6,15)."

And another here
"in regard to clothes. This law is contradicted by the fact that the high priest.s
vestments .and to a minor degree the other priests. vestments (girdle).were made
with .stu
s. that constituted Mixed Kinds (Ex 28:5-6, regarding the high-priest;
28:40-43, concerning other priests; and 39.27-29). The drapes inside the Temple
also contained Mixed Kinds but it would seem that this does not violate the law,​

since they are not clothes.

​

​

3​

As demonstrated by M. Haran, the strict correspondance between the various​

kinds of priestly garments and the various kinds of decorations inside the Temple

was another way of demonstrating the unity signi ed by the rituals themselves.​

​

​

4​

M.Haran.s research makes it obvious that the closer one was to the inner sanctuary,​

the more thoroughly Mixed Kinds applied, except that this technical word was

not used.​

​

​

5 Mixed Kinds applied most strictly to the high-priest, but perhaps also​

to other priests, to a minor degree. M.Haran thinks that only the high-priest wore

wool and linen.​

6 Indeed, Ex 39:29 may have only applied originally to Aaron and​

his sons, i.e., the successive high-priests. But there are some grounds to believe

that other priests as well wore Mixed Kinds, namely a girdle of wool, in the Temple

precincts. This was at least true in the Second Temple period and believed to be so
afterwards, when the Jewish understanding was that priests wore Mixed Kinds.​

​

7​

The diculty in describing the historical development should not mask the real​

issue, which is that priests were to wear Mixed Kinds. M. Haran did not dwell on

the contradiction inherent to the wearing of Mixed Kinds, except to say that .this
mixture of stu
is actually an ancient mark of the holiness of these accessories, as
is precisely shown by the prohibitions in Lev. xix, 19 and Deut. xxii, 9, 11..​

​

​

8 The​

question needing to be addressed is: How did this mixture mark holiness?

The command towear fringes, traditionally regarded as summarizing the whole

Law, was also contradictory with the prohibition of Mixed Kinds, as practiced until
the talmudic period. This is clear enough from the biblical texts alone, Num 15:38
​

​

3​

Unless they originally were conceived of as clothes of the deity. It would be interesting to know​

if Deuteronomy law was narrower than previous formulations.​

4​

.The Complex of Ritual Acts Performed Inside the Tabernacle,. Scripta Hierosolymitana 8 (1961)​

272. More recently, his ​

Temples and Temple-Service in Ancient Israel, reprinted with minor corrections​

from 1978 original (Oxford: Clarendon) Winona Lake, Indiana: Eisenbrauns (1985) 165-74, 211-12, and​

passim.

5​

Temples and Temple-Service in Ancient Israel, p. 211.​

6​

He is followed by L. Oppenheim, .Essay on Overland Trade in the First Millenium B.C.,. JCS 21​

(1967) 247, note 59.​

7​

In his description of priestly robes, Josephus speaks of pure linen for the warp, and of owers of​

diverse hues in the weft: ​

AJ 3:154. In AJ4:208, he simply states that Mixed Kinds were reserved to​

priests. See also ​

mKil. 9:1, quoted below; bYoma 69a. There are also interesting later traditions, for​

instance the hymn attributed to Rabbi Yonai in the Palestinian Talmud.​

8Art. cit. supra, p.281.​

Here is a quote from the KJV -

4 And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
5 And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen.
6 And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with cunning work.
7 It shall have the two shoulderpieces thereof joined at the two edges thereof; and so it shall be joined together.
8 And the curious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; even of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.
9 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:
10 Six of their names on one stone, and the other six names of the rest on the other stone, according to their birth.
11 With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones with the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be set in ouches of gold.
12 And thou shalt put the two stones upon the shoulders of the ephod for stones of memorial unto the children of Israel: and Aaron shall bear their names before the Lord upon his two shoulders for a memorial.
13 And thou shalt make ouches of gold;
14 And two chains of pure gold at the ends; of wreathen work shalt thou make them, and fasten the wreathen chains to the ouches.
15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.

I did nt find the word wool in the text. Is it in the Hebrew? I do not think the translatrs would have left such a thing out.

bugkiller

 

[New_Wineskin]

I see it as a salvation issue.

bugkiller

WIth how it is presented , it is absolutely a salvation issue .

 

[Sophrosyne]

I see it as a salvation issue.

bugkiller

If you don't tie it to such people can ignore it and those who demand it have invested too much to allow themselves to be ignored even to the point of rejecting parts of the bible that shows them as wrong.

 

[Shimshon]

Here is a quote from the KJV -

me in the priest's office.
4 And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
5 And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen.
6 And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with cunning work.
7 It shall have the two shoulderpieces thereof joined at the two edges thereof; and so it shall be joined together.
8 And the curious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; even of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.
9 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:
10 Six of their names on one stone, and the other six names of the rest on the other stone, according to their birth.
11 With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones with the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be set in ouches of gold.
12 And thou shalt put the two stones upon the shoulders of the ephod for stones of memorial unto the children of Israel: and Aaron shall bear their names before the Lord upon his two shoulders for a memorial.
13 And thou shalt make ouches of gold;
14 And two chains of pure gold at the ends; of wreathen work shalt thou make them, and fasten the wreathen chains to the ouches.
15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.

I did nt find the word wool in the text. Is it in the Hebrew? I do not think the translatrs would have left such a thing out.

bugkiller

The hebrew word used here is 'shesh'. It's translated as 'fine linen'. Strongs 08336

 

[annier]

Here is a quote from the KJV -

me in the priest's office.
4 And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
5 And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen.
6 And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with cunning work.
7 It shall have the two shoulderpieces thereof joined at the two edges thereof; and so it shall be joined together.
8 And the curious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; even of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.
9 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:
10 Six of their names on one stone, and the other six names of the rest on the other stone, according to their birth.
11 With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones with the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be set in ouches of gold.
12 And thou shalt put the two stones upon the shoulders of the ephod for stones of memorial unto the children of Israel: and Aaron shall bear their names before the Lord upon his two shoulders for a memorial.
13 And thou shalt make ouches of gold;
14 And two chains of pure gold at the ends; of wreathen work shalt thou make them, and fasten the wreathen chains to the ouches.
15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.

I did nt find the word wool in the text. Is it in the Hebrew? I do not think the translatrs would have left such a thing out.

bugkiller

I think (not sure) but the certain colors of dyed materials are the indicator. And the term for twisted linen..
Ex 35:6 And blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats’ hair,
Ex 35:23 And every man, with whom was found blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats’ hair, and red skins of rams, and badgers’ skins, brought them.
Ex 35:26 And all the women whose heart stirred them up in wisdom spun goats’ hair.
Ex 36:14 And he made curtains of goats’ hair for the tent over the tabernacle: eleven curtains he made them.

It is a known fact historically the high priests vestments were of mixed fabrics according to Judaism.
Therefore the mixing of fabrics was seen in much the same way as the holy compound of annointing oil. The common people were not to make it for themselves or put it upon themselves. Because it was reserved as HOLY, for the holy ones and things.