Torah debates

[bugkiller]

No Greeks either.

So then who is subject to the law? Is the non-Christian Jew? The Gentile is not because the law was never given to them. The law does not apply to anyone under the jurisdiction of the NC. Who then is the law made for?

My answer is -

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. I Tim 1

bugkiller

 

[Eliwho]

So then who is subject to the law? Is the non-Christian Jew? The Gentile is not because the law was never given to them. The law does not apply to anyone under the jurisdiction of the NC. Who then is the law made for?

My answer is -

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. I Tim 1

bugkiller

So then gentiles don't have to obey Christ, hunh?

John 5:39 KJV

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Matthew 11:29 KJV

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.


He didn't say Israel, gentile or Christian,
or just some of God's word.

Matthew 4:4 KJV

But he answered and said , It is written , Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Luke 4:4 KJV

And Jesus answered him , saying , It is written , That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

 

[Eliwho]

Abraham is neither an Isrealite (Jew) or Christian.

bugkiller

Reckon he was.... I don't know...... maybe.... a.... man?

 

[bugkiller]

Reckon he was.... I don't know...... maybe.... a.... man?

Yeah I take it Abraham was a man. Now what does that have to do with anything? Abraham still did not have the law or the 10 Cs. Moses said so - Deut 5:2-3. So I must ask do you also throw out Moses and the Book of the Law?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

So then gentiles don't have to obey Christ, hunh?

John 5:39 KJV

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Matthew 11:29 KJV

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.


He didn't say Israel, gentile or Christian,
or just some of God's word.

Matthew 4:4 KJV

But he answered and said , It is written , Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Luke 4:4 KJV

And Jesus answered him , saying , It is written , That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Obeying Jesus Christ has nothing to do with obligation to the law.

But I say unto you... Mat 5

JN 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. The law includes the 10 Cs.

bugkiller

 

[Eliwho]

Originally Posted by bugkiller

The Gentile is not because the law was never given to them. The law does not apply to anyone under the jurisdiction of the NC.

Here Paul is saying the law was written for the Apostles sake.
Was he not under the jurisdiction of what you call the new commandment as if it did away with the old?

I COR IX
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn . Doth God take care for oxen? 10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written : that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

No bout a doubt it.

 

[Eliwho]

Yeah I take it Abraham was a man. Now what does that have to do with anything? Abraham still did not have the law or the 10 Cs. Moses said so - Deut 5:2-3. So I must ask do you also throw out Moses and the Book of the Law?

bugkiller

You are the one throwing out the law.

 

[bugkiller]

You are the one throwing out the law.

Not so. I believe Jer 31:31-34, Mat 26:28, MK 14:24 and LK 22:20. And if you wish to accuse me of throwing out the law, I am only being obedient to the Scripture - Gal 4:30. What are you obeying? The OC or the NC? If it is the OC you have no salvation because the law does not promise or provide for salvation. One can not have both - a divided house will come to distruction - Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

This agrees with Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

bugkiller

 

[Eliwho]

Not so. I believe Jer 31:31-34, Mat 26:28, MK 14:24 and LK 22:20. And if you wish to accuse me of throwing out the law, I am only being obedient to the Scripture - Gal 4:30. What are you obeying? The OC or the NC? If it is the OC you have no salvation because the law does not promise or provide for salvation. One can not have both - a divided house will come to distruction - Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

This agrees with Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

bugkiller

I have never said anyone is justified by the law.
I have maintained the law does not disannul, nor is it against the covenant.

JER 31
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


That's all the law.
The dos and the don'ts.
You cant get all the dos right without knowing what the don'ts are.

We are required to search the scriptures.
Unless you just wanna blow off what Jesus said to do.
I think Jesus said somethin' about slaying those folks who do that.

Luke 19:27 KJV

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

 

[Eliwho]

I have never said anyone is justified by the law.
I have maintained the law does not disannul, nor is it against the covenant.

JER 31
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


That's all the law.
The dos and the don'ts.
You cant get all the dos right without knowing what the don'ts are.

We are required to search the scriptures.
Unless you just wanna blow off what Jesus said to do.
I think Jesus said somethin' about slaying those folks who blow Him off.

Luke 19:27 KJV

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Let's not forget about moses.
ACTS 3

22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers , A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass , that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

and Peter
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken , have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed .


26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Oh it's definitely about righteousness and salvation.

I have never said anyone is justified by the law.

More word games ... If one is made righteous and saved by observing the Law , they are justified by the Law .

 

[Eliwho]

More word games ... If one is made righteous and saved by observing the Law , they are justified by the Law .

I didn't say it Paul did.

Who is unrighteous?

The lawless and disobedient.

1 Timothy 1:9 KJV

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient,

 

[bugkiller]

I have never said anyone is justified by the law.
I have maintained the law does not disannul, nor is it against the covenant.

JER 31
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


That's all the law.
The dos and the don'ts.
You cant get all the dos right without knowing what the don'ts are.

We are required to search the scriptures.
Unless you just wanna blow off what Jesus said to do.
I think Jesus said somethin' about slaying those folks who do that.

Luke 19:27 KJV

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Please explain what 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt means. What covenant is Jeremiah referring to?

I simply can not fathom what is misunderstood by Not according to.

I simply do not understand how the word new is misunderstood.

I simplly do not understand how the word covenant is all inclusive of all God's law. The terms are not the same in reference to what God will write on the heart.

To come to your conclusion one has to throw out not only the meanings of words but the actual Scripture.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Let's not forget about moses.
ACTS 3

22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers , A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass , that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

and Peter
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken , have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed .


26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

I see no revelance of LK 19:27 to anything in our discussion. Please explain why you included it in your post.

Who is forgetting about Moses? Is disregarding the OC's jusrisdiction for the NC's jurisdiction forgetting Moses? How?

Are you implying that only Israeli(tes) (Jews) can have salvation? Peter is acknowledging that Jews are direct descendants of Abraham and Abraham's seed (Jesus) will bless all mankind. Peter is also addressing Jews and not Gentiles. Does this mean Gentiles are not included in the blessing of Abraham? No! The Scripture clearly says nations or all the earth. It does not say all the earth will become one single nation.

Yes I understand you are using v 25 to say everyone is subject to the law. If you are saying something else there is no supportable argument.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I didn't say it Paul did.

Who is unrighteous?

The lawless and disobedient.

1 Timothy 1:9 KJV

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient,

Is Paul lying?

Who are the disobedient identified in I Tim 1:9-10? I see nothing about the 4th commandment or adhering to the law. In fact v 9 says very clearly the law is not for the righteous. How can one possess salvation and not be righteous? Does this righteousness come by the law? No!! If it did how can one's righteousness exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Here Paul is saying the law was written for the Apostles sake.
Was he not under the jurisdiction of what you call the new commandment as if it did away with the old?

I COR IX
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn . Doth God take care for oxen? 10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written : that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

No bout a doubt it.

Still refusing to deal with Not according to... huh? Paul is not demanding adherance to the law. He is illustrating a concept to the Jews.

bugkiller

 

[New_Wineskin]

I didn't say it Paul did.

Those were quotes from you and you alone .

 

[Eliwho]

Still refusing to deal with Not according to... huh? Paul is not demanding adherance to the law. He is illustrating a concept to the Jews.

bugkiller

Nice try but I posted before you asked that.
The law is not the covenant.
When you learn that, you might begin to understand.

MATTHEW 5
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy , but to fulfil .

Notice that these breakers and doers have two things in common.
They both have the commandments and they are both in the kingdom.

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:

but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Now this being the case, where does that leave somebody who does not have them?

Answer: Outta the kingdom.


Nuff said. Unsubscribing.

 

[bugkiller]

Nice try but I posted before you asked that.
The law is not the covenant.
When you learn that, you might begin to understand.

Then explain what is the covenant. Remember a covenant has details that must be complied with or there is no covenant. Thus a covenant is not an agreement to nothing.

MATTHEW 5
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy , but to fulfil .

I have no idea wht this verse has to do with our discussion. Indeed Jesus did fulfil all the law, the prophets and Psalms concerning Him. Thus the covenant contract is completed and of no more value except to teach from and historical value. It has no jusrisdiction as any completed contract (covenant).

Notice that these breakers and doers have two things in common.
They both have the commandments and they are both in the kingdom.

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:

but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Now this being the case, where does that leave somebody who does not have them?

Answer: Outta the kingdom.

So what commandments is Jesus talking about with calling them "these?" At this point in the Sermon on the Mount Jesus has not referenced a single one of the 10 Cs. When Jesus does reference them, He also says - "But I say...." which means somethning different. This is not magnifying the law because the word "but" is saying something entirely different.

Nuff said. Unsubscribing.

But I invite you back any time you wish to chat.

bugkiller

 

[New_Wineskin]

But I invite you back any time you wish to chat.

bugkiller

They will be back ... most likely under yet another username .

Yet , it was nice that they admitted for all on that side of the debate that it is about righteousness and salvation .