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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Zeek
Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist
Originally Posted by Zazal
Torah was given right from the time G-d first spoke to Adam, it was not the Torah of Moses either...it is important to understand...just as the Torah of Jesus was where the Torah of Moses led....
The Torah was not given to Adam. Do not try and confuse us by changing the words and their meanings.
bugkiller
Admittedly it can be a bit confusing, especially if you maintain a rigid and uninformed opinion of what constitutes torah.
I was very specific in how I tried to outline it and open it up for peoples consideration, and it was ingenuous to suggest I was deliberately trying to confuse people, or change words and their meanings.
The fact is that G-d gave torah/instruction to Adam...not to eat from a certain tree...when one understands this definition of torah, it is easier to see how it differs from what is known as the Torah/Law of Moses..but the Torah can mean the Pentateuch, the Tenakh, the Talmud etc, so in any context a specific definition often helps.
I expanded on it a little further (only for those that are interested, if you have swithced off by now because it seems so very complicated that's ok) to suggest/imply that Jesus taught Torah, and that in many ways it encompassed law and teaching.
I have pasted an excerpt below that might word things a little better than I can, in the fond hope it encourages
rather than
.What Do We Mean by the Term "Torah?"
The Hebrew word, torah (תורה
, is derived from a root that was used in the realm of archery, yareh (ירה. Yareh means to shoot an arrow in order to hit a mark. The mark or target, of course, was the object at which the archer was aiming. Consequently, torah, one of the nouns derived from this root, is, therefore, the arrow aimed at the mark, The target is the truth about God and how one relates to Him. The torah is, therefore, in the strict sense instruction designed to teach us the truth about God. Torah means direction,teaching, instruction,or doctrine.We should note that the usual translation of this word as law is not quite accurate.[1] One of the most common ways that torah (תורה
is rendered in the Septuagint (LXX)[2] is by using the word nomosv, nomo?. The Greek word nomos, however, has a variety of uses, among which, to be sure, is law, but it is certainly not limited to law. Following the precedent set by the LXX, the Newer Covenant Scriptures consistently render the Hebrew torah by the term nomos. This is where things begin to become confusing. Sometimes, in the Newer Covenant Scriptures, it is appropriate to translate nomos as law. However, other times it is more appropriate to render it as God's teaching/instruction, or simply to transliterate the term as Torah. The context of the word is always the final determiner of its meaning.Torah - Definition
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New_Wineskin
Contributor
And , they claim over and over that they *are not* saying that it is about righteousness or salvation ...
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annier
Guest
I am referring to your comments concerning the law being a boogie man in the eyes of people. Simply because God uses his holy and just law to bring his wrath upon and faithless, does not mean I nor anyone else consider him a boogie man. Furthermore, simply because I disagree with your views of the law does not mean I am doing away with the law.Annier,
If I misunderstood where you were coming from, maybe you could elaborate on which comments you are referring to.
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Admittedly nothing. You use the word torah to mean anything you desire. Torah in the sense you say Adam had it is not the sense Moses says the COI have it. In fact Moses says specificaly Adam did not have this torah - Deut 5:3. You are using it to sneak in the back door to hopefully decieve and intice an immature Christian into following the law as a requirement of and to maintain salvation. The word torah is not normally used in the sense you try to use it. In looking on the net I find no such treatment of the word torah as you are trying to convey. Not even the Jewish Encyclopedia.
When you capitalize the word torah in the middle of a sentence you are implying the Torah (the Law) and not merely torah (a word or common instruction). This is the common English understanding. If you are just being sloppy you need to clean it up, be very consistant and proper. But that is not your purpose. You must confuse and then offer a plausable explanation for the unsuspecting and uneducated person. God does not need to do this to convict some one of the truth. Men do - ussually to support a lie they wish to call the truth. In short you use a common word and give it an uncommon unaccepted definition not understood by your targeted audience. This is what cults do.
I have pasted an excerpt below that might word things a little better than I can, in the fond hope it encourages
What Do We Mean by the Term "Torah?"
The Hebrew word, torah (תורה
We should note that the usual translation of this word as law is not quite accurate.[1] One of the most common ways that torah (תורה
I read the whole article you quote from and the word torah is not really defined well IMHO. The very same article also says they use the word torah as I understand it through their entire site. I quote the same article as proof - Hence, when we use the word torah throughout our website, unless we specify otherwise, we are referring, first and foremost, to the five books of Moses...
Now you started off your post with - you maintain a rigid and uninformed opinion of what constitutes torah. I humbly ask who is being rigid and unreasonable?
bugkiller
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Eliwho
Guest
Oh it's definitely about righteousness and salvation.
By saying they, I guess you're admitting you are not of "us"?
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Eliwho
Guest
That would be this one.Which is where I entered into this thread.
Originally Posted by Frogster
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New_Wineskin
Contributor
You are calling them "liars" or "very wrong" , then .
Not of those of whom you are calling "liars" or "very wrong" ... ? Yes , I admit that I am not one of "them" with respect to the discussion .
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annier
Guest
It looks like you yourself have done away with quite a few here. Oh and by the way, the weaning of blended garments was a commandment that was not applicable for the high priest. The right or priviledge to wear woolen and linen was his alone among the people. Just as the compound of the holy annointing oil was not to be used upon the common people, nor were they to even compound anything of it, but the priests alone used the holy annointing oil. Similarly they defiled the sabbath in the temple without sin. So much for one law for everybody heh?
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That does not do away with the law or the 10 Cs.That would be this one.Which is where I entered into this thread.
Originally Posted by Frogster
Now since you claim it does it is up to you to provide any passage of Scripture showing the law was given to the Gentiles. I am afraid if I were to hold my breath I would turn
bugkiller
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Not quite so fast there. The garments the priests wore were not of mixed fibers. Each item was an entirely different garment.
bugkiller
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Pardon me sir, but I am having a very difficult time relating any of this above post related to the discussion of the word torah.
Do you call the 10 Cs torah or Torah? I see no difference in the way you use the word. You aboslutley mean the same connotation when you say Adam had torah and Moses gave torah. This simply is not so according to the Scripture.
I showed you very plainly what your quoted site calls torah and how they use and mean torah. It coinsides with my understanding and not what you are pormoting.
bugkiller
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If the us is Israel that would be correct. The Christian is not and does not become Israel or a Jew upon becoming a Christian. There is no Jew in Jesus Christ - Gal 3:28. No Jew - No Israel. Pretty simple.
bugkiller
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No, it is not. I am not part of Israel as a Christian. Not one simgle passage in the OT addresses Christians.YOU.
bugkiller
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Eliwho
Guest
God addressed the father of our faith all the time.
GEN 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
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