Torah debates

[Eliwho]

Which ones are you talking about? Where does the Scripture say we must first obey the law to possess salvation?Yeah I wish more people would take that passage to heart and apply it.And by what righteousness do we inherit thekingdom of God? The righteousness that comes by the law or the righteousness God provides as a free gift that is not our own?Looks like to a large serving of condemnation is being served up. The above is not a list of thou shalt nots but a list of sin we are not to fellowship with and partake of. It is not a serving of the law.

But keep trying.

bugkiller

Pay very close attention here.
The law is not the boogey man.

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man

So then what is the first things listed here that says someone is unrighteous and needs the law?

but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

That's right the lawless and disobedient.
Righteous men have the testimony of Jesus and keep the commandments of God.


REV XII:XVII
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Pay very close attention here.
The law is not the boogey man.

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man

So then what is the first things listed here that says someone is unrighteous and needs the law?

but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

That's right the lawless and disobedient.
Righteous men have the testimony of Jesus and keep the commandments of God.


REV XII:XVII
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

See my signature.

 

[Eliwho]

this does not disprove my point, Paul said faith, and salvation, he did not stress law, did he? Lets not forget 1 Timothy, where he did not want the law teachers, coming to epehsus, he said the law is NOT for the just in 1 Tim 1,the same ephesus where Timothy was, where he said the jewish law was abolished in 2:15. So lets go by what he told Timothy elsewhere also.


Ok, lets look at the emphasis here>> We know faith righteousness is of Paul, not works. yes?

2 Tim 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,






You do know Paul said his gospel was in the OT all along, don't you, in Rom 1:2 the same writings as 2 Tim 3:15, and chapter 16, etc? You do know he used Abraham, the man of FAITH righteousness, out of genesis, and his gospel of Gal; 3:8, quoting gen 12:3?

The law is a part of all scripture.
Now prove the context said it is not.

 

[annier]

You talkin' bout the same Spirit that said breakin' these commandments would keep you outta the kingdom?


8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust .

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived : neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

For this ye know , that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Not just those who are of the world, but a brother also:


9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company , if any man

that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat .

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth . Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Lotta torah preachin' goin' on here for nobody to have been given it.

That is right, lotta torah goin on. Torah which Abraham walked in, 400 plus years before Moses law was given for the Sinai covenant.
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

 

[Eliwho]

That is right, lotta torah goin on. Torah which Abraham walked in, 400 plus years before Moses law was given for the Sinai covenant.
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Mighty fine point Sis.
I have no hidden religion agenda, I'm just one of these dumb ole boys with my own bible.
Don't wanna derail this thread, but works aint the boogey man either.
Ole Abe had faith and works not just one or the other.
Faith first then the works which perfected his faith.

JAMES II
20 But wilt thou know , O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect ? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith , Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified , and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[annier]

Mighty fine point Sis.
I have no hidden religion agenda, I'm just one of these dumb ole boys with my own bible.
Don't wanna derail this thread, but works aint the boogey man either.
Ole Abe had faith and works not just one or the other.

JAMES II
20 But wilt thou know , O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect ? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith , Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified , and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Thanks Eliwho. I dunno why you keep bringing up the boogey man, but Abe walked by the law of faith. In other words Abraham trusted fully in the faithfulness of God to keep his promises. Abe did works of faith, trusting in Gods faithfulness. It is Gods faithfulness to keep his promises (also works) unto Abraham that we all are saved in Christ Jesus.

 

[Eliwho]

Thanks Eliwho. I dunno why you keep bringing up the boogey man, but Abe walked by the law of faith. In other words Abraham trusted fully in the faithfulness of God to keep his promises. Abe did works of faith, trusting in Gods faithfulness. I(t is gods faithfulness to Abraham thats we all are saved in Christ Jesus.

AGREED

Boogeyman, is for those posters here who seem to be afraid of the law.

 

[annier]

AGREED

Boogeyman, is for those posters here who seem to be afraid of the law.

What makes you believe they are afaid of the law? The law brings wrath.

 

[Zeek]

That is right, lotta torah goin on. Torah which Abraham walked in, 400 plus years before Moses law was given for the Sinai covenant.
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Torah was given right from the time G-d first spoke to Adam, it was not the Torah of Moses either...it is important to understand...just as the Torah of Jesus was where the Torah of Moses led....

 

[annier]

Torah was given right from the time G-d first spoke to Adam, it was not the Torah of Moses either...it is important to understand...just as the Torah of Jesus was where the Torah of Moses led....

Too cryptic for me.

 

[bugkiller]

Torah was given right from the time G-d first spoke to Adam, it was not the Torah of Moses either...it is important to understand...just as the Torah of Jesus was where the Torah of Moses led....

The Torah was not given to Adam. Do not try and confuse us by changing the words and their meanings.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Pay very close attention here.
The law is not the boogey man.

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man

So then what is the first things listed here that says someone is unrighteous and needs the law?

but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

That's right the lawless and disobedient.
Righteous men have the testimony of Jesus and keep the commandments of God.


REV XII:XVII
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Ah but it is not the 10 Cs being spoke of in Rev 12:17.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

The law is a part of all scripture.
Now prove the context said it is not.

And your point is.... No one here is denying the law is part of Scripture.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

AGREED

Boogeyman, is for those posters here who seem to be afraid of the law.

And just who is that?

bugkiller

 

[annier]

And just who is that?

bugkiller

My sentiments exactly. These kinds of comments make me think some simply do not take the prophetic nature of the law seriously enough at all. God's wrath is not to be seen as some childish boogeyman. God's wrath is serious stuff. For it is a HOLY, JUST, and Good judgement of God. It should not be referred to as some boogey man IMO.

 

[Eliwho]

And your point is.... No one here is denying the law is part of Scripture.

bugkiller

You might wanna reread yer buddy frogster's posts.

 

[Eliwho]

My sentiments exactly. These kinds of comments make me think some simply do not take the prophetic nature of the law seriously enough at all. God's wrath is not to be seen as some childish boogeyman. God's wrath is serious stuff. For it is a HOLY, JUST, and Good judgement of God. It should not be referred to as some boogey man IMO.

Guess you didn't read the context of my posts.
I have steadily maintained the law is not the boogeyman.
The law serves 2 purposes, life and good and death and evil.
Little godly fear is fine. Not to the point of doing away with the law.
Christ crucified the curse of the law.
He also opened up direct access to our Father.
Giving us power to become the son's of God.
Whereby we may serve in newness of spirit,not serve some new law.

Deuteronomy 30:15-17a -- "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgements, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. But if your hearts turn away so that you do not hear, you shall surely perish ..."
​

 

[ananda]

So just how important to you is this matter personally

"Torah" is commonly translated "The Law", but in reality, the Hebrew word conveys a meaning more than just "Law" or "Commandments".

"Torah" also embodies the meaning of "Way of Righteousness", or "The Right Way to Live", and I believe it was indeed this Way which YHWH the Father laid out for His children to walk within. His firstborn, Yehoshua Messiah walked in that narrow & difficult path perfectly and thus qualified to be the perfect sacrifice for our sins. The Father and our Husband (Messiah) also wants those who believe in Him to walk also in that Way, following after Him and His footsteps which have gone before us.

So, to answer your question, the Torah is indeed supremely important in my eyes.

 

[Eliwho]

Annier,
If I misunderstood where you were coming from, maybe you could elaborate on which comments you are referring to.

 

[bugkiller]

You might wanna reread yer buddy frogster's posts.

Since you are doing the accusing you present the post. I am not going to spend my time looking for something I do not think exists. And my buddy Frogster has lots of posts.

bugkiller