Too much focus on the blood?

mkgal1 · May 6, 2018

It seems to me that Jesus was fulfilling the role of the High Priest visiting and inspecting the Temple when He "cleansed the Temple" as recorded in the Gospels. But notice what's missing?

The priest will then perform the purification offering and make reconciliation for the person needing purification from their uncleanness. After that, the entirely burned offering will be slaughtered. 20 The priest will offer up the entirely burned offering and the grain offering on the altar. In this way, the priest will make reconciliation for the person, and they will be clean again.~Leviticus 14:19-20

discipler7 · May 7, 2018

mkgal1 said:
Also....I may be missing something....but I don't see anything about "atoning for Adam's sin" in there (specifically).

So, how was Adam's Original Sin specifically atoned or forgiven.?

discipler7 · May 7, 2018

mkgal1 said:
It seems to me that Jesus was fulfilling the role of the High Priest visiting and inspecting the Temple when He "cleansed the Temple" as recorded in the Gospels. But notice what's missing?

JOHN.1:1 & 14 = 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. &
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
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1TIMOTHY.3: =
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
.
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JOHN.3: = 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
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HEBREWS.1: =
The Son Exalted Above Angels
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?

And again:

“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

7 And of the angels He says:

“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”

8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

10 And:

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”

13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:

“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
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HEBREWS.5: =
A Priest Forever
5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.”

6 As He also says in another place:

“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek”

royal priest · May 7, 2018

Jair Crawford said:
Again, the issue is... with the potential connection to ancient Jewish and possibly even older primitive sacrificial practices. That is what I am seeking to seperate.

First of all, I apologize for the length of this post, but here is a connection that is very important to understand. The OT sacrifices were established by God because of the need for atonement of sin.
The OT has so much to say regarding this, but to keep it short and hopefully simple, I refer only to the instance found in Leviticus chapter 16.
The Jewish tabernacle, or temple had a room called the Most Holy Place. Only the high priest was allowed admittance and inside that room was the Ark of the Covenant. The cover of the ark was called the 'mercy seat'. All of this is carefully prescribed by God in Exodus and Leviticus. Once a year, on the Day of Atonement, the High priest would sacrifice an animal then cover the mercy seat with the blood of the sacrifice.
The ritual sacrifice associated with The Day of Atonement is a striking picture of the atoning work of Jesus Christ. Again, this is by design to point the Jews to their need for atonement for their sin. Consider that ritual as described in Leviticus 16:
Two goats are involved. One is slaughtered and it's blood is sprinkled on both the alter and the mercy seat. Then the priest would place his hands upon the head of the other goat and pronounce the sins of Israel upon the animal.
Leviticus 16:21-22, "And Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the people of Israel, and all their transgressions, all their sins. And he shall put them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who is in readiness. The goat shall bear all their iniquities on itself to a remote area, and he shall let the goat go free in the wilderness."
Here we see in this ritual two important aspects of atonement for sin. One goat represents the sinners need for a sacrifice to die in his stead. The other goat represents the sinners need to have his sin imputed to the account of another. This provision of a sacrifice is a striking testimony to the God who is perfect in His justice, wisdom, love, and mercy.
When Jesus Christ died on the cross, He was acting the part of the sacrifice that God offers: perfect and sufficient in every way to suffer and die in the place of wicked men. And to bear their sins away as far as the East is from the West. Psalms 103:12
Hence John the Baptist's declaration at his first sight of the Jesus, the Messiah:
John 1:29, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
There's a lot more to it, but I hope that little bit proves helpful.

Brian Mcnamee · May 7, 2018

gomerian said:
wow
I've been thinking along the same lines. I had almost stopped believing that Jesus came to die, as a reaction to the vats of blood thrown up by televangelists et al. Thanks for this thread.

I have not seen Televangelist for a while I thought they were all sowing the seed of faith so that you can be rich.

Brian Mcnamee · May 7, 2018

Jair Crawford said:
I have been thinking a lot lately. My faith has been on quite the rollercoaster ride the past seven months or so but, I feel like God is teaching me through all of this.

Ok so to cut right to the chase... what is the significance, specifically to US right now, of the blood of Christ? I am wondering, do we put too much emphasis on the blood in Salvation?

Now before anyone freaks out too much, let me explain a bit here what's going through my wild head... It is clear to me that Salvation is only achieved through the acceptance of Christ which includes accepting His death and resurrection. He died so that we might live. That's not the question.

The question is, is it literally the blood? Or is the blood simply a fulfillment of prophecy?

You might ask why I'm wondering so much about this? Well, a lot of people put a LOT of emphasis on the atoning power of the blood. But, that is a very Jewish concept. In fact the whole idea of God requiring blood sacrifice is very Jewish, and actually goes back even further in all cultures to very primitive practices.

I feel like I have always seen what Jesus did at Calvary to exceedingly transcend any such primitivism, which is why I always had a hard time interpreting the Old Testament sacrifices as literal requirements from God. But I KNOW that without Jesus death and resurrection, I could not have life.

So the question then really is, is the blood literally still significant for us? Or should we be more focused simply His death, and subsequent descent and removing the keys from Satan, and then return through His resurrection? And in that death and victory we too have victory over sin?

Am I making sense? I feel like I am rambling a bit. lol

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.

He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”[fn]
17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

SolomonVII · May 7, 2018

discipler7 said:
So, how was Adam's Original Sin specifically atoned or forgiven.?

Maybe one man living his entire life correctly, and putting his love of the Father over and above al
worldly concerns and desires is all that it takes to justify the creation of man in the first place.

mkgal1 · May 7, 2018

discipler7 said:
So, how was Adam's Original Sin specifically atoned or forgiven.?

I agree with the Franciscans, who have never believed in the Atonement *theories*.

CAC devotion said:
In Franciscan parlance, Jesus did not come to change the mind of God about humanity; Jesus came to change the mind of humanity about God. This grounds Christianity in pure love and perfect freedom from the very beginning.~ https://cac.org/incarnation-instead-of-atonement-2016-02-12/

I don't see "atone[ment]" mentioned in the passage you used to support this assertion:

As per the requirement of God's Law or Moses Law, the Lord Jesus Christ was sacrificed on the Cross as the Lamb of God, in order to atone for Adam's Original Sin

It's already been posted that atonement means "cover". God did something better. He "takes away" the sin of this world.

"So the former commandment is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the Law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God".~Hebrews 7:19

Inkfingers · May 7, 2018

discipler7 said:
JOHN.6: = Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day

That is an interesting point.

It wasn't Jesus' literal blood that was being drunk (sorry Catholics ) and not his literal blood that saves, but his figurative blood which is essentially transfused into us when we are given a new heart by God. So his blood saves when we take it into us, but its not literal blood in the cup so its not literal blood that saves.

mkgal1 · May 7, 2018

SolomonVII said:
Maybe one man living his entire life correctly, and putting his love of the Father over and above al
worldly concerns and desires is all that it takes to justify the creation of man in the first place.

Well.. not just any man, but God enfleshed.

mkgal1 · May 7, 2018

@discipler7 I don't understand the point you'e trying to make in post #63.

gomerian · May 7, 2018

Brian Mcnamee said:
I have not seen Televangelist for a while I thought they were all sowing the seed of faith so that you can be rich.

I caught Impe's act a few months ago, and I still can't get it out of my head... which is why I mentioned it. Nothing works that guilt-and-give muscle better than a vat of blood.

mkgal1 · May 7, 2018

Jair Crawford said:
Or should we be more focused simply His death, and subsequent descent and removing the keys from Satan, and then return through His resurrection?

You may be interested in reading the book, Making All Things New by Benjamin L. Gladd, Matthew S. Harmon, and G. K. Beale.

An excerpt is online here---->https://www.wtsbooks.com/common/pdf_links/9780801049606.pdf

I do think that there's hope in Christ's death...and not that all our hope lays far off in the future---at His second coming. As it's written in this book:

Making All Things New said:
We should think of Christ’s life, trials, and especially his death and resurrection as the central events that launched the latter days. These pivotal events are eschatological in particular because they launched the beginning of the new creation and kingdom.

The OT prophesied that the destruction of the first creation and the recreation of a new heavens and earth were to happen at the very end of time. Christ’s work reveals that the end of the world and the coming new creation have begun in his death and resurrection: 2 Corinthians 5:15 and 17 says Christ “died and rose again . . . so that if any are in Christ, they are a new creation, the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come.” Revelation 1:5 refers to Christ as “the firstborn from the dead,” and then Revelation 3:14 defines “firstborn” as “the beginning of the [new] creation of God.”17 Likewise, Colossians 1:18 says that Christ is “the firstborn from the dead” and “the beginning,” so that “he himself might come to have first place in everything.” In Galatians 6:14–15 Paul says that his identification with Christ’s death means that he is a “new creation.”

The resurrected Christ is not merely spiritually the inauguration of the new cosmos, but he is literally its beginning, since he was resurrected with a physical, newly created body. Recall that when Matthew 27:50 narrates Jesus’s death, Matthew immediately adds in verses 51–53, “the earth shook; and the rocks split, and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.” These strange phenomena are recorded by Matthew to signal to his readers that Christ’s death was the beginning of the end of the old creation and the inauguration of a new creation. Likewise, 1 John 2:17–18 can say “the world is passing away; . . . it is the last hour.” Hence, Christ’s death is not just any death but rather the beginning of the destruction of the entire world, which will not be consummated until the very end. Likewise, 1 Corinthians 15:22–24 says the resurrection launched in Christ will be consummated when he returns, when resurrected saints will become a part of the final form of the eternal new creation.
~https://www.wtsbooks.com/common/pdf_links/9780801049606.pdf (page 21-22)

discipler7 · May 7, 2018

mkgal1 said:
I don't see "atone[ment]" mentioned in the passage you used to support this assertion:

Please read my posts #30 and #59.

We shall be saved from hell when we die(= resurrected or raptured by God/Jesus) only if we recognize the fact that we need to repent of our inborn or inherited Adamic Original Sin, which has already been atoned by the blood of Jesus Christ that was shed on the Cross.
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1JOHN.1 & 2: = 1: 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. .......

2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but for the whole world.

mkgal1 · May 7, 2018

discipler7 said:
Please read my posts #30 and #59.

I have. I also responded by saying that what you used to support your argument doesn't have "requirement" or "atonement" there (or I'm missing it). You can re-read the discussion here---->
Too much focus on the blood?

You'd said:

discipler7 said:
As per the requirement of God's Law or Moses Law, the Lord Jesus Christ was sacrificed on the Cross as the Lamb of God in place of Adam, in order to atone for Adam's Original Sin

....and that's when I asked you where you're getting that from. You've not answered that, in my opinion, because I don't see "requirement" as per the Mosaic Law (nor do I see what Christ did as "atonement"....because as it says in Hebrews 7:19, that may nothing perfect).

What I *do* see is an "undoing" or "reversal" of the curse of death and also two systems that have run parallel (the Levitical Priesthood and the Priesthood of Christ, which is superior)...just as you already posted here:

discipler7 said:
LEVITICUS.17: = 11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’ 12 Therefore I said to the children of Israel, ‘No one among you shall eat blood, nor shall any stranger who dwells among you eat blood.’

discipler7 said:
HEBREWS.9: =
The Heavenly Sanctuary
11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

mkgal1 · May 7, 2018

My belief on Christ's death and resurrection aligns with the Greek Orthodox church, which states:

GOArch said:
By His glorious Resurrection, Christ has shown the unlimited power of God as the Source and Giver of life; and because of His love for us, He has brought us from death unto life, and from earth unto Heaven. Life is restored by our Creator to all that it was meant to be! Life abundant and eternal is ours!

yeshuaslavejeff · May 7, 2018

discipler7 said:
So, how was Adam's Original Sin specifically atoned or forgiven.?

Is it possible you just mean Adam's sin? (not anything related to "Original") .....

As written in God's Word and usually rejected and/or forgotten by most in the world:
"Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness".

mkgal1 · May 7, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
"Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness".

This is under the Law (separate from and contrasted to the Royal Priesthood of Christ).....which Hebrews says:

Hebrews 7:19 said:
(for the law perfected nothing), but a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. Jesus became a priest with an oath by the One who said to Him: “The Lord has sworn and will not change His mind, ‘You are a priest forever.’”

....but He did fulfill the Law by allowing the shedding of *His* own blood (but that was a *gift* not a requirement, as I see it, and as it's written in the text).

mkgal1 · May 7, 2018

I think this is an interesting (and relevant) read. In part it says:

Linked Article said:
The early Christians turned things upside down with a seemingly ridiculous announcement of a revolution through the crucifixion of a Jewish teacher, such that “by 6 p.m. on that dark Friday the world was a different place.” But the church has tamed this radical message, domesticating it to the powers he came to subvert.

The burden of N. T. Wright’s latest book, The Day the Revolution Began: Reconsidering the Meaning of Jesus’s Crucifixion, is to unpack those two claims.

The traditional presentation of the gospel—e.g., the “Romans Road”—has little contact with the story the apostle is telling in that famous epistle, Wright argues. Abstracted from the story of Israel, the gospel becomes reduced to “Jesus bore God’s wrath in your place so you could go to heaven when you die.” That old-time religion had some legitimate pieces of the puzzle, but it didn’t put them together properly. Consequently, evangelicals have moralizedthe problem (sin merely as violations of a code), paganized the solution (an angry Father punishing his Son), and platonized the goal (going to heaven when we die). Wrigth identifies this misunderstanding of the basic plot of the Bible the “works-contract.”

Instead of this works-contract, Wright offers what he calls the covenant of vocation. The relationship God established with Adam and Eve was indeed a covenant, but it was commission to rule, subdue, and fill the earth as God’s viceroy, or royal official. So rather than the problem being reduced to “sin”—understood as a legal infraction—the tragedy goes much deeper. Sin is a symptom of idolatry. When we turn from worshiping the true God, we surrender the authority God has given us to the idols—the powers and principalities of darkness. But the covenant of vocation resumed with the calling of Abram, promising a worldwide family. Through Israel—a new Adam—God would save the world. ~N. T. Wright Reconsiders the Meaning of Jesus’s Death

Blade · May 7, 2018

Its not all yet when ever I had to test a spirit .. there is something they can not ever say "by the blood of Jesus we are washed".. As God said.. live is in the blood

Too much focus on the blood?

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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