Tongues as Initial Evidence

[Mathetes the kerux]

The more I read this the more my heart breaks. This is sadness. Such deep deep grieving.

How dare any of us post anything on this forum that we have not taken to the Father first. We who call ourselves 'believers' or 'christian' or identify ourselves in any way with Jesus surely must be walking in fellowship with Jesus and hearing from him before we post our comments here.

Isn't our motivation love?

Don't we want to be full of Spirit of God and bring his life into our everyday dealings?

Isn't communion with our loving heavenly Father our greatest desire?

and... doesn't communion involve communication?

What has happened to us?

T I get what u are saying . . . but that is NOT what Jim is speaking of. Jim may be guilty of a tone or a sarcasim in his post . . . but what he refers to IS VALID.

1. The context in this forum is discussion and debate

2. a WELL known tatic of some (not making any accusations here) is, when backed into a corner, to say, "well God told me" which is in reality a BAD play for it automatically CLAIMS authority. If anyone disagrees, the person who claimed "God said X" shuts down, cause hey, if the person they are speaking with doesnt want to listen to God, then why should that person be listened to anyhow?

I AM NOT SAYING THAT THIS IS WHAT WAS BEING DONE . . .

I dont think k2k is trying this tatic . . . I think Jim is over reacting . .. BUT Jims concern is valid NONE THE LESS.

He is not speaking of our own relationship with God and His leading us day by day, but against a false form of logic OFTEN seen in Charismatic circles.

make sense?

 

[JimB]

Oh, yeah. Well, God told me I wasn’t sarcastic or over-reacting.

So there.

~Jim

I believe in miracles but I don’t depend on them.​

 

[JEBrady]

Oh, yeah. Well, God told me I wasn’t sarcastic or over-reacting.

So there.

~Jim

Oh yeah? OH YEAH??? Well, he told me...OK, he didn't tell me, but it doesn't matter because I have the gift of discernment and I know all things... Besides, you never answered my question. I wasn't asking k2k, I was asking you. You don't have to answer, of course, but I suppose that's evident at this point. And I would never try to pressure you by reposting and pressing the point.

Er, almost never.

Anyway, you asked a really good question. How would anyone know if it was God that told anyone anything on this forum? That's probably one of the best questions in the thread.

 

[K2K]

This is JimB's post, not mine. You're mixing us up in your response.

Sorry about that - thanks for pointing it out.

 

[K2K]

It is so important that we continually carry on running conversations with God about every area of our life. It is part of the 'pray without ceasing' thing and the 'in all your ways acknowledge him' thing. imo

As far as the Acts 2 reference. I am not pushing any agenda or pre-conceived idea. I tend to shy away from the notion of tongues being the initial evidence thing. I came to the conclusion that the miracle was as much in the hearing as in the speaking when I read that scripture 32 yrs ago while a youth in the Baptist Church.

At 14 yrs old I read the scripture and I saw that it said something different than what our family bible story book said. I read and it and re-read it and came up with the same thing every time. The fact that the writer repeated the statement 3 times for clarification made me think that he wanted it to be clear that each individual was hearing the group speak in their own language.

Later I was taught that speaking in tongues was for preaching the gospel but Paul said that when you speak in tongues no one understands... So you should pray to get the interpretation.

This is my practice: I pray in the tongues and sometimes I receive the interpretation immediately but often it comes after a day or two of praying. What I am doing is entering into a place of worship with the Father that is far beyond my natural intellect. Through this communion with the Father he brings things into me that I would not have been able to receive through the limitations of my natural way of thinking.

I don't know what language Balaam spoke but I do know that his ride was given the ability to make his thoughts known to Balaam. I don't think that Balaam's donkey was a christian or a heathen. He was just simply a vessel used by God.

Speaking of Balaam... Balaam is a good example of someone who had a gifting from God but his heart was not right. Balaam was a prophet. He was not a false prophet. Balaam did prophecy what God wanted him to prophecy but his heart was not right with God.

The donkey spoke donkey. He could only make grunts and braying sounds that meant little to Balaam. If the donkey was going to be able to communicate with Balaam he was going to have to step up his linguistic capabilities a notch or two.

People speak people languages. In our attempts to worship, praise, and communicate with God our native languages are nothing more than grunts and braying sounds in comparison with the grandeur and overwhelming intellect of our Father God. The Father wants us to step it up a bit. We can't even come close to giving God the praise that he deserves through our own intellectual and linguistic abilities. This is why it is so important that we ...

"worship Him in spirit and in truth"

God is not a donkey or a human... he is spirit.

Nice post - a lot to get out of it - and I can relate to all of it.

 

[K2K]

Hmmm. Does this apply to you, too, T.? Did you “take this to the Father” before you posted it or was it just an emotional response? And how could you possibly know if I did or did not take this to the Father first? Did God tell you that?

Personally, I think you are assuming a lot.

But for the record, I am opposed to anyone pulling the God card and saying “God told me” this or that about a theological issue under discussion in an open forum. Saying such things may or may not be true (who knows?) and will invariably stop a discussion in its tracks.

Now, at this point I could say that God told me to tell you this … and how would you know for certain? If I did say such a thing, it would certainly end the discussion (in my favor) unless you were bold enough to reject my presumptuousness.

~Jim

I believe in miracles but I don’t depend on them.​

The Scriptures explain that we all know in part. The Scriptures also explain that His sheep hear his voice. They also say, "what you hear whispered in your ear shout on the house top".

So when I come to a Christian forum, it is because I only know in part and would like to find out what others are getting. The Lord wants us to fellowship, and I always figured that was part of the reason He only gave each of us part. And if anyone knows a part it is because they heard from the Lord because it is written that knowledge comes from His voice [Prov 2:1] And since we are instructed to shout on the house tops what is whispered in our ear, I fully expect to have other Christians posting what they heard from the Lord.

So it is not a matter of winning an arguement in my favor, but rather picking up information that could be useful from others that do indeed hear from Him. And since they only know in part, and I only know in part, the differents parts should give me a better understanding. And regardless of what they say, I am going to take whatever they say to the Lord. So if someone is making up something and saying it is from the Lord, I will find out. And if someone is not checking the spirit and picking up a wrong spirit, I will find out. And in both the two previous cases I will still learn something because I take it to the Lord. So I always win, even though it is not about winning a point on this forum.

So as for me, please pull the "God Card" on me, if you have heard something from Him, because His reproof and teachings are what I am looking for, along with a bit of fellowship with others that do spend time everyday, hearing from Him.

Prov 8:8 Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you, Reprove a wise man and he will love you.

I still have a lot to learn, and appling this verse correcty is one of them. I have trouble figuring out who the scoffers are and who the wise men are, until after I point something out. Please bare with me, and thanks for helping.

 

[TasManOfGod]

(I am quite surprised at the spirit I am seeing here on these boards lately . . . yuck)

so am I
I can see a lot of misunderstanding here about who became annointed by the Holy Spirit and and how this annointing manifested

 

[K2K]

Gal 3:5-6 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it bythe works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckon to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

It also mentions something about becareful how you judge, because as you judge so shall you be judge.

So if you don't mind I would like to get back to sharing something the Lord pointed out to me concerning the tongues and hearing. That is the connection that I have been trying to get at on this thread. That is to say; the important part of the gift of tongues [the falling of the Spirit during the pentecost] is that it is design to get us to hear the Spirit talk to us in our own language, and not the speaking a bunch of babble or even the rare case in which we hear someone speak speaking our language but they don't know it.

Observe this verse:

Gen 11: 6 The Lord said, "Behold they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do wil be impossble.

If people all have the same language nothing is impossible for them. God wants to give us the desires of our hearts, so if we could all come together with the same desire, [say we all wanted to find a way to heaven] then what would God have to do?

So He came down and confussed the languages of the earth so that different peoples speak languages that means nothing more that babble to those speaking other languages.

So with the Spirit coming with the gift of tonges, [which sounds like babble to those that don't know to turn and listen to the small voice of the Lord] He has given us a common language, and has thus reversed what was done at Babble!

Now by following the Lord [which means listening to Him, and that is why He gives the Spirit, and the lone reason for being counted as righteous] nothing is now impossible for us.

So while I have seen a number of other very benificial reason for the gift of tongues, the most important reason for the gift of tongue is that it gets us to [or at least should get us to] listen to the small voice of the Lord. If someone is speaking something they themselves don't understand, and can hear from the Lord, how long is it going to take before the start asking the Lord what it is they are saying? So the gift of tongues does get people to start listening to the small voice of the Lord.

Now,If everyone does listen to the Lord [and the Lord once told me that He was capable of having the exact same relationship with everyone on earth as He has with me - and I talk to Him about things like what clothes to wear and what food to eat] then nothing is impossible for His church!!!

We might even be able to get the whole world to start listening to the Lord and all could get to heaven. Of course we would have to start listening more first. And I don't see that really happening. Yet that is why it is so important to understand the connection between the gift of tongues and hearing God in your own language. So Paul told those speaking in tongues to ask for interpretation!!!

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Oh, yeah. Well, God told me I wasn’t sarcastic or over-reacting.

So there.

~Jim

I believe in miracles but I don’t depend on them.​

ur appeal to authority got me brother

 

[FoundInGrace]

I havent read the rest of this thread just wanted to say maybe the initial evidence to look for isnt tongues.. when God delivered me I also no longer spoke in tongues.. counterfeit ones are real folks not saying that was what I had but I no longer spoke in tongues... so yes I personally think evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit manifests itself in Love first and foremost because thats who God is.

 

[K2K]

I havent read the rest of this thread just wanted to say maybe the initial evidence to look for isnt tongues.. when God delivered me I also no longer spoke in tongues.. counterfeit ones are real folks not saying that was what I had but I no longer spoke in tongues... so yes I personally think evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit manifests itself in Love first and foremost because thats who God is.

I fully agree that the initial evidence that someone had allowed the Lord into their life, or even being filled with the Spirit, is not speaking in tongues!!! I'm not sure we can say it is love either, althought certainly there must be an increase of love in someone when the Lord comes into their life.

First of all, tongues is a gift, and must you receive a gift, unless of course the gift is the person who you get to know. Jesus Christ is called Jesus because He is God's salvation. So if we have received Jesus Christ and ask Him to be our Lord, then we have received God's free gift of salvation, but Jesus sends the Spirit and the gifts are gifts of the Spirit, and it is possible to be filled with the Spirit and not speak in tongues.

Before the Spirit came like fire with the gift of tongues, there were various recordings of the Spirit coming upon someone and even filling someone, and they didn't speak in tongues. The other gifts of the Spirit were usually if not always on display, such as miracles, prophecy, wisdom, etc.

We are saved by faith and faith comes from hearing, thus the indication that you are saved would be hearing and acting upon what the Lord says to you.

Now I want to mention that God is Sprit and the Word is God, so I am talking about hearing Him with our spiritual ears and it seems evident that many people hear Him by getting impression from Him and not by actually being able to pick up those impression as an actual voice.


The second point I want to make is that everyone thinks they are right in their own mind. I have meet people that feel themselves to be very loving people, and even appeared that way to me, who were clearly into witchcraft! They were even casting spells, reading tarot cards, raising herbs to assist in the spell, so they didn't know my Lord, but they felt themselves to be wonderful loving people. What seems like love is not always love, and what seems cruel is not always cruel.

Reproof and discipline almost always seem cruel, but are they? If I see a strange dog run out into the street, I try to avoid the dog, but I don't go over and try to scold the dog for doing it, or try to chain up the dog to protect it. Yet the owner that cares for the dog might certainly do those things. So love is not always revealed by our judgements and our understanding, and may even be hardest to discern in ourselves.


A third point I would like to make, is that it is written; 'faith, hope, love, the greatest of these is love'. I believe this is a progression. That is to say, I believe that you must first have faith [and that comes from hearing the Lord] then you aquire hope that indeed God does exists and that He cares for you, and finally you aquire love and God is love.

You see this when a scribe goes up to Jesus and asks Him what the greatest commandment is. Jesus replies by saying, "HEAR, O ISREAL"... [This is a commandment to hear and faith comes from hearing],... "THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE" [This is a statement of hope that we personally have one God],... "AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART...ect" [This is a conclusion, so it starts with hearing with faith and the conclusion is love]

So what does the gift of tongues have to do with the progression of faith, hope, and love? Tongues is a gift of the Spirit, and while valuable in numerous ways [and my point in this thread is that tongues is most valuable in reminding us to listen to the voice of the Lord], the gift of tongues in itself is not necessary to knowing the Lord. However, it is written to desire the gifts, and that is an instruction from the Lord.

 

[JimB]

so am I
I can see a lot of misunderstanding here about who became annointed by the Holy Spirit and and how this annointing manifested

And if the misunderstanding were on your side of the question, would you know it?

~Jim

I believe in miracles but I don’t depend on them.​

 

[Tenacity]

So often we sound like the religious people of Jesus' day.

There was nothing in k2k's comments to indicate that he was trying to "pull the God card". He was in fact furthering the discussion by recalling something that the Lord himself had taught him.

In the local fellowship of believers of which I am a part, I am thrilled when someone "pulls the God card". More often than not... actually almost always... what the Lord has been teaching them goes hand in hand with what he has been teaching me. It is exciting.

The place that conflict comes in is from those that have no real interest in being taught by the Lord. Instead they scramble through the book trying to find scripture that will support their theory or pet doctrine.

I have given up on trying to establish the First Church of Tenacity. I have decided to turn to the Spirit himself to be my teacher. He will tell me what he wants me to know or say when it is time to know it or say it. I travel light.

I depend on "The God card".
"The God card" is my only hope.
No amount of intellectual understanding, education, or religious practice will save me.

I spend very little time developing intellectul arguments to make my point.... and when I do spend time developing those arguments I have to turn away from myself and back to God.

I do spend time in the presence of the Father and humbling myself before him so that I might be used as a tool in his hand. I want to think his thoughts and speak his words and not my own. Tongues plays an important role in this humbling and learning experience.

 

[FoundInGrace]

I fully agree that the initial evidence that someone had allowed the Lord into their life, or even being filled with the Spirit, is not speaking in tongues!!! I'm not sure we can say it is love either, althought certainly there must be an increase of love in someone when the Lord comes into their life.
.

Just to be pedantic and I didnt really explain well but I dont think I said that the initial evidence couldnt be speaking in tongues just that I personally think Love in a believer's life is much more reliable evidence of the Holy Spirit.. and even if a person spoke in tongues I would not take that as evidence that the Holy Spirit is there, it would not even register as evidence to me as I said counterfeits are around I would need more evidence than that.

The verse I mainly base my conclusion on is this one:

Romans 5:5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

God pours his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit therefore once the Holy Spirit arrives/is poured out into a believer's heart I believe God's love will now be able to be evidenced in that believer's life for the glory of God and the furthering of God's Kingdom.


That is my reasoning in case it helps.

It seems to me that tongues is a side issue to love when God arrives in a person's life.

Imo God's Love is the Power of God, God's love can break down pretty much anything.
Demons cannot stand in the presence of God's Love.

It is His Spirit that we are given to empower us to do the work of the Kingdom
ie His Spirit manifests God's Love.

 

[JEBrady]

Just to be pedantic and I didnt really explain well but I dont think I said that the initial evidence couldnt be speaking in tongues just that I personally think Love in a believer's life is much more reliable evidence of the Holy Spirit.. and even if a person spoke in tongues I would not take that as evidence that the Holy Spirit is there, it would not even register as evidence to me as I said counterfeits are around I would need more evidence than that.

The verse I mainly base my conclusion on is this one:

Romans 5:5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

God pours his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit therefore once the Holy Spirit arrives/is poured out into a believer's heart I believe God's love will now be able to be evidenced in that believer's life for the glory of God and the furthering of God's Kingdom.


That is my reasoning in case it helps.

It seems to me that tongues is a side issue to love when God arrives in a person's life.

Imo God's Love is the Power of God, God's love can break down pretty much anything.
Demons cannot stand in the presence of God's Love.

It is His Spirit that we are given to empower us to do the work of the Kingdom
ie His Spirit manifests God's Love.

The doctrine under discussion is this: speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of receiving the baptism in the Holy Spirit. When someone is baptized in the Holy Spirit, they will speak in tongues. This assumes the baptism in the Holy Spirit to be an event distinct from being born again that doesn’t necessarily occur when one is born again, though it can. Anyone who is born again receives the Holy Spirit, but being baptized in the Holy Spirit is receiving the power of God.

Love is not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, as listed in 1 Co 12, it is a fruit of the spirit. As you quoted, the love of God is released into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, but bearing the fruit of love in our lives is a matter of personal character that has to do with our walk in the spirit. Many Christians don’t manifest the fruit of the spirit because they are immature or disobedient. So the fruit of the spirit, while it is a testimony to one’s belonging to Christ, has nothing to do with being baptized in the Holy Spirit. One receives the indwelling Holy Spirit at the new birth, but that doesn’t mean they are baptized in the Holy Spirit.

You can go around speaking in tongues all day, healing the sick, raising the dead, working miracles, speaking words of wisdom, words of knowledge, seeing visions and prophesying and still not necessarily walk in love. That’s what 1 Co 13 is all about. Christian character, and in particular, love is greater than all those other things. But they don’t have anything to do with the doctrine under discussion in this thread.

 

[Tenacity]

Scripture tells us that no man can tame the tongue. Does this mean that the tongue cannot be tamed? Certainly not. Man might not be able to tame the tongue but the Spirit of God is quite capable of accomplishing this task.

As I submit my life to God on a moment by moment basis, I also submit my tongue to him. The more I submit to the Spirit of God in this way, the more aware of his voice I become. The more I listen to the Spirit of God as he speaks to me, the more His words are the words that come from my mouth.

This is the place from where I must speak and it is from this place that I am given 'authority' to speak.

When we speak of something as if we know what we are talking about, we are speaking from a place of authority. We see this in practice throughout these forums.
The question becomes; From what authority do we speak?

Does our authority come from within ourselves and our years of experience? (This would be the way of the world)

Does our authority come from tradition? (This would be what has established many cultures and religions)

... or does our authority come from our understanding of scripture? (This would be the way of the teachers of the law who had the very word of God right in front of them and they did not know him.)

Does our authority come from God himself because we are a people who are living as one with the Father. ( This is the way of Jesus and all those who are truly following him. )

Paul pulled away with God and was taught by God himself. Paul claimed that he spoke in tongues more than, "ye all". Paul said that he prayed in the Spirit and with the understanding. Isn't this place in God the very thing that empowered Paul to be able to teach and articulate the truths God had taught him from a place of authority?

Although tongues may be considered one of the lesser gifts it is still very important and a good place to start.

Isn't the bible full of stories of people who "pulled the God card"?

 

[JimB]

IMO, the phrase “baptism of/in/by/with the Holy Spirit” occurs at the moment of salvation when we are added to the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12.12-13) but it is not the same thing as salvation any more than regeneration (the new birth), sanctification, justification, redemption, adoption, empowerment, etc. are the same thing as salvation although they also occur at the same time. We are “filled” with the Spirit at the moment we become Christ’s and this infilling is a recurring event in the life of the believer just as it was when OT people were filled with the Spirit. God fills us as He uses us.

Tongues is incidental to any of this and is just one of the many gifts that are made available to us as supernatural empowerment to participate with God in advancing His kingdom. It is not meant to be evidence of anything.

Anyhow, that’s how this once-upon-a-time Pentecostal has come to see it.

~Jim

Mercy triumphs over judgment. ~James 2.13​

 

[FoundInGrace]

The doctrine under discussion is this: speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of receiving the baptism in the Holy Spirit. When someone is baptized in the Holy Spirit, they will speak in tongues. This assumes the baptism in the Holy Spirit to be an event distinct from being born again that doesn’t necessarily occur when one is born again, though it can. Anyone who is born again receives the Holy Spirit, but being baptized in the Holy Spirit is receiving the power of God.

Love is not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, as listed in 1 Co 12, it is a fruit of the spirit. As you quoted, the love of God is released into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, but bearing the fruit of love in our lives is a matter of personal character that has to do with our walk in the spirit. Many Christians don’t manifest the fruit of the spirit because they are immature or disobedient. So the fruit of the spirit, while it is a testimony to one’s belonging to Christ, has nothing to do with being baptized in the Holy Spirit. One receives the indwelling Holy Spirit at the new birth, but that doesn’t mean they are baptized in the Holy Spirit.

You can go around speaking in tongues all day, healing the sick, raising the dead, working miracles, speaking words of wisdom, words of knowledge, seeing visions and prophesying and still not necessarily walk in love. That’s what 1 Co 13 is all about. Christian character, and in particular, love is greater than all those other things. But they don’t have anything to do with the doctrine under discussion in this thread.

Thanks for clarifying what the discussion is about

 

[FoundInGrace]

I tend to believe that when we accept Jesus we are born again of the Spirit, our spirit is made alive with Christ.

It is a difficult one for me because of my own experience.
I was saved when younger, got off track and oppressed, then God showed up and poured His Love into the very depths of my being one night freeing me from a whole lot of stuff and yes empowering me to walk with Him after that.

Was that baptism of the Holy Spirit or simply God freeing me from darkness?

Some would say that it was baptism of the Holy Spirit but I know I already had the Holy Spirit in me because I would be cautioned and feel repulsion within me (which I believe was the Holy Spirit) when I was in darkness for that time. So I dont necessarily put it in that category. It can be a divisive doctrine among the family of believers if we are not careful as once we are saved we are all God's children. If we start pressuring people to have an extra experience that is dangerous and will end up being damaging to some.

I wonder if others also think experiences they have had are 'baptism in the Holy Spirit' when in fact they are experiences of being freed.

However it was a very powerful experience that I had and baptism in the Holy Spirit is certainly one way of describing it because I was "baptised" in God's Love, thoroughly immersed in it and freed. Praise God! I did feel born again really did, the old was gone the new had come.. but I was already saved.

It is a difficult doctrine for me as I have said.
I am as yet undecided.

As I have also mentioned when that experience with God happened I no longer spoke in tongues
I do really think speaking in tongues is not as important or essential in having a relationship and quality walk with God that people think it is
so..

my walk with God doesnt really fit into any doctrine around this topic

 

[TasManOfGod]

IMO, the phrase “baptism of/in/by/with the Holy Spirit” occurs at the moment of salvation when we are added to the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12.12-13) but it is not the same thing as salvation any more than regeneration (the new birth), sanctification, justification, redemption, adoption, empowerment, etc. are the same thing as salvation although they also occur at the same time. We are “filled” with the Spirit at the moment we become Christ’s and this infilling is a recurring event in the life of the believer just as it was when OT people were filled with the Spirit. God fills us as He uses us.

Tongues is incidental to any of this and is just one of the many gifts that are made available to us as supernatural empowerment to participate with God in advancing His kingdom. It is not meant to be evidence of anything.

Anyhow, that’s how this once-upon-a-time Pentecostal has come to see it.

~Jim

Mercy triumphs over judgment. ~James 2.13​

And if you were wrong would you know it?