Tongues as Initial Evidence

[Tenacity]

In the churches that I have attended where 'tongues' was practiced the gifts of the spirit have been treated mostly like a side show.

They are not widely practiced in everyday life and they only show up randomly and rarely on occasion in a service. A person will have a prophetic word or a tongue and interpretation, every one claps and says yeah and amen, then continue on as if nothing ever happened. Basically the gifts are taken off the shelf, shown around a bit, then put back on the shelf.

As far as initial evidence I have seen this to be the usual case; A person seeks to get the 'baptism'. They end up speaking in tongues. They celebrate that they have received the Holy Ghost and then they go back to living life the same way they always did.... but now they have the "baptism". There only appears to be a select few who actually move on into a place where they learn to surrender their life to God enough for him to begin to use the gifts in their life in a meaningful way.

My personal experience has been something quite different from this. This is why I am amazed at this shallow practice within the church when I see it. I was the first person that I ever heard speak in tongues. I was the first person I ever heard prophesy. I was the first person that I ever heard tell of a dream from the Lord. I was the first person that I ever heard to speak of a vision that the Lord had given them.

I never set out to prophesy, or speak in tongues or have dreams of visions. I only set out to find God. I was a desperate young man who needed God. I would pray for hours on end seeking the holiness of God. I wanted God. I wanted God more than anything. As I sought the Lord with all of my heart he began to reveal himself to me more and more. He would bring into my life the people that I needed and he would direct me where to go, what to read, and what to say. The gifts became a part of my life but they followed me and I did not follow them. The gifts of the Spirit became something that I instinctively expected to happen.

None of this was my own doing and I do not say these things to boast. I am not trying to make a name for myself or seek position or power. I am only wanting to be used by my Father in whatever way he desires. In myself I am nothing and incapable of pleasing God.

The way that church practices the 'gifts' is far from what God intended but that is starting to change. This change is taking place within individuals and not in a movement directed by any man but directed by the Lord himself.

final note: (well probably not final but final for now)
At about 16yrs old I had a family from the local tongue talking church that I was attending get in my families face. They were angry about an untrue bit of gossip that they had gotten hold of. This mother, father, and older daughter were angry. They were red faced angry and in a rage. They started screaming in our faces in tongues. They started trying to cast the devil out of everything in sight and at times I thought that they were going to physically attack us. They were not merely speaking with authority but were in an angry rage as they spoke in tongues.

If it were not for my own experience in God concerning the gifts, and the Lord's direction through scripture, I would have turned away from the whole 'tongue' thing for good. What this experience did do was to turn me to the Father for answers. He then taught me many things and gave me a deeper understanding of tongues and the gifts and I am thankful that these angry people were used by God in this way.

ok that's it. and anyway...

 

[JimB]

In the churches that I have attended where 'tongues' was practiced the gifts of the spirit have been treated mostly like a side show.

*****

Yes. This was one of the most disillusioning things about my P/C experience (of some 30+ years), most of the people who were attracted to the churches I pastored were just there for the show—people waving their hands, shouting out loud, weeping, flailing, dancing (mostly clogging), slobbering, and generally holy rolling. They had no intentions of doing it themselves, of course, but they did want to see our members do it. I came to suspect that they were just there to watch the show and, if the show did not meet their expectations, they would bail out and buy a ticket to another P/C show down the street.

So, hen we planted our present church we mutually agreed to a dialed-down less-exhibitionist form of meetings where the emphasis was more on Christ and His kingdom, through the week, than on what happens in a weekend side-show. Over the months since we began, we attracted a pack of P/C’s looking for the thrill who came to our church looking for a better weekend performance. When they didn’t get to see people acting bizarrely, they complained, tried to get me to infuse a little more “spirit” (?) into the show (I guess, so they would enjoy it more and make the weekend worth the dollar they flipped into the offering). Without exception, these people never contributed to the overall welfare of the church, participated in its ministry, or even did any of the things they came hoping to see us do.

But, thankfully, those days are past and I am no longer a performer or promoter of weekend shows. The pressure is off me trying to tickle the emotions and thrill the expectations of those who come to watch the antics of others.

Thanx for letting me rant …

~Jim

If you have not chosen the Kingdom of God first, ​

in the end it will make no difference what you have chosen instead.​

​

 

[JEBrady]

Some sad stories.

The gifts of the spirit, prophecy, tongues and interpretation, gifts of healings, word of wisdom, word of knowledge were active in my church, and they weren't out of order. Many times a word would be spoken, a song would be sung and the pastor's message would all be along the same lines. If you were sensitive in the spirit, you could sense when these things were about to happen. It was obvious the services were being orchestrated by the Holy Spirit. On the rare occasions when someone would manifest something that wasn't of God, it was corrected publically. There were a few who appeared to be trying to draw attention to themselves, and that's probably always going to be true to some degree, but in general there was a truly notable move of the spirit of God.

I could wish that was the case more often than not. These days I'm not so sure.

 

[JimB]

Some sad stories.

The gifts of the spirit, prophecy, tongues and interpretation, gifts of healings, word of wisdom, word of knowledge were active in my church, and they weren't out of order. Many times a word would be spoken, a song would be sung and the pastor's message would all be along the same lines. If you were sensitive in the spirit, you could sense when these things were about to happen. It was obvious the services were being orchestrated by the Holy Spirit. On the rare occasions when someone would manifest something that wasn't of God, it was corrected publically. There were a few who appeared to be trying to draw attention to themselves, and that's probably always going to be true to some degree, but in general there was a truly notable move of the spirit of God.

I could wish that was the case more often than not. These days I'm not so sure.

Part of me has come to think that when an awareness of the gifts began to be taught at the early days of the Pentecostal Movement, they got a lot of it wrong and perpetuated it to subsequent generations. We still have too much misinterpretation of what the gifts are and how they function than we are aware of or willing to admit. We need some good theologians (instead of the pop-theologians we tend to follow) and Bible interpreters to clear up the mess for us. We are still children running with scissors and need get a bit more familiar with our tools. IMO.

~Jim

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.​

 

[Tenacity]

I think I should clarify what I was saying in my previous post.

I do believe that the move of the Spirit that I have seen in churches has been a genuine move of the Spirit.

The tongues and interpretations and prophecies etc. that I have seen in church have indeed been the gifts of the spirit in action. When I have seen the gifts in operation in services they have been in order with the prescribed pattern of worship. The fact that the gifts are only seen in operation while in a service combined with the fact that the response to the word is normally loud clapping and shouting is what gives the whole thing the sideshow quality. I have gotten the impression that the people are excited to see the gifts in operation while at the same time giving little respect to what was said. I also believe that the reason that we rarely see the gifts in operation outside of a church service is because outside of church people are not looking to be lead by the Spirit.

I know for fact that in the denomination that I am currently attending they are not to allow a word to be given that would be considered a rebuke. Why? because the gifts are for the "edification" of the body. They do not consider a rebuke to be edifying. It is a sad state of affairs for a church when they will always reject a word from the Lord that is a rebuke.

Let me tie this in with this thread topic and this does tie in. The fact that we are discussing whether or not tongues is the initial evidence of the baptism shows us how far we have wandered from the intended use of the gifts. This question (and please I sincerely do not mean any disrespect to the OP and I know that this is a common discussion) but this question imo adds to the "sideshow" mentality. No longer is it a matter of denying self, taking up your cross, and following Jesus, in surrender to his spirit. But now the question is whether or not you have spoken in tongues?

I truly believe that when you become immersed in the Spirit of God it will be evident. Out of our bellies should flow this river of life. This life should completely soak us and everything around us.

I frequently operate in the gifts but I have never once given a "thus saith the Lord" in a service. The Lord has always prevented me from doing so.

I pray in tongues almost constantly and the Lord is constantly teaching me and often just being with me.

When the Lord gives me something to say I do not stand up and proclaim it in a big booming voice, "Thou must hasten to hear the word of the Lord thy God because he hath given me a proclamation that I must decree to thee this day..." The Lord doesn't talk to me like that so I don't talk to others that way. Besides, does God only speak in old english? This practice also contributes to the sideshow effect.

"...You know?, we are not supposed to be looking for a burning bush like Moses had because we are to be the burning bush. God has put his spirit within us, his words are on our lips, and he has baptized us with fire..." That is an example of the kind of thing that the Lord has had me to say. There was no clapping and cheering because somebody operated in a gift, but instead an expectation that what the Lord said would have a significant impact on the hearer.

I am not suggesting that the gifts should not be seen in a worship service. I am saying that they should be sprinkled throughout our daily lives that we have surrendered to the Lordship of Jesus. We should not be amazed and cheering when we see them in operation because they should be our moment by moment expectation.

I think that if we are going to get this right we need more people who are laying down their lives and truly following after the spirit. The theologians/bible scholars of our day are still trying to work the gifts from within the confines of our current system.

Wow so much left to say on this matter...

 

[bloodbought09]

Some sad stories.

The gifts of the spirit, prophecy, tongues and interpretation, gifts of healings, word of wisdom, word of knowledge were active in my church, and they weren't out of order. Many times a word would be spoken, a song would be sung and the pastor's message would all be along the same lines. If you were sensitive in the spirit, you could sense when these things were about to happen. It was obvious the services were being orchestrated by the Holy Spirit. On the rare occasions when someone would manifest something that wasn't of God, it was corrected publically. There were a few who appeared to be trying to draw attention to themselves, and that's probably always going to be true to some degree, but in general there was a truly notable move of the spirit of God.

I could wish that was the case more often than not. These days I'm not so sure.

Sounds like the church I was attending years ago. This confirmation happened alot for those in tune to the Spirit of God. Cool, that the same Holy Spirit operates where I was and am at and in the church in your town at corresponding times.

Bless.

 

[JEBrady]

Sounds like the church I was attending years ago. This confirmation happened alot for those in tune to the Spirit of God. Cool, that the same Holy Spirit operates where I was and am at and in the church in your town at corresponding times.

Bless.

There were many pastors that came out of that church. What a training ground. I would have all the churches be like that, and more. There's no substitute for the move of God's spirit.

 

[bloodbought09]

There were many pastors that came out of that church. What a training ground. I would have all the churches be like that, and more. There's no substitute for the move of God's spirit.

I was in this church for the last 4 years. The Holy Spirit would give me one word at a time. But you know one word can be very powerful. Well the word would be confirmed. The preaching was good in that it is with power, and when the power of the Holy Spirit is present, the word impacts.

Over the past couple of years alot of attacks came against the church, some people being influence by devils such as what we dub jezebel, a spirit of control usually linked with women who oppose the leadership of men. At times they try to influence me but when I am on to them, I go to battle against them. I got the unction one time to say, "Who is not letting the men rise up in this church?" I was bombarded by two women and the pastor who is a woman went out side to take a phone call. One woman tried to tell me we were above angels and the other told me that men mess things up. I corrected the one about our placement amongst angels. The other I just told her when I first met her I did not like her voice. The pastor, well she is kinda blind to what else is going on there, and I love her so much, but when you do not let the males come up, the authority is not as strong. Jezebel seems to oppose the male prophets.

For a long time I would turn in my bible and it would be right on Elijah battling the prophets of Baal and Asherah. I learn that many flee at the presence of this dragon, but some God has given a kingly anointing such as Jehu, to confront jezebel and to have her thrown down from her tower. Those influenced by a spirit like so can still be Christians who love Jesus Christ, but instead of backing away and hiding like Elijah, someone has to go ahead and confront what is being seen and sensed in the church, even if it seems to hurt others or step on their feet.

If you have ever sensed anything quite like this, do say so, but I try to keep in mind that I am still quite a new born baby and do not always know how to distinguish if I am discerning spirits, if what is being given to me is my own imagination or if it is something that God wants exposed. When leadership is in a rut, sometimes God starts talking to me, and two weeks or a month goes by and it is confirmed. Somehow there seems to be a hindrance in one part of the body, but not in another.

Bless.

 

[bloodbought09]

Part of me has come to think that when an awareness of the gifts began to be taught at the early days of the Pentecostal Movement, they got a lot of it wrong and perpetuated it to subsequent generations. We still have too much misinterpretation of what the gifts are and how they function than we are aware of or willing to admit. We need some good theologians (instead of the pop-theologians we tend to follow) and Bible interpreters to clear up the mess for us. We are still children running with scissors and need get a bit more familiar with our tools. IMO.

~Jim

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.​

I must admit, I was quite a baby, pouting because nothing extraordinary was happening and have been really immature at times. But, at some time we must realize that we are to grow by milk, line upon line, precept upon precept. We must learn to not act so selfish like a childish temper tantrum, when things do not go our way, stop being about me and reach out to others. Treat our brothers and sisters with more preference than ourselves. And mobilize to do the things that God wants to do in His kingdom. It is His kingdom, and when we are selfish, we think it must belong to us.

Bless.

 

[Tenacity]

... We need some good theologians (instead of the pop-theologians we tend to follow) and Bible interpreters to clear up the mess for us... IMO.

~Jim

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.​

Theologians, pop-theologians, and bible interpreters have had a go of it and they get it wrong just as bad or worse than anybody.

We have had enough study about God and understanding of scripture to last anyone a life time.

The 'teachers of the law', theologians, pop-theologians, and bible interpreters of Jesus day knew the scripture well enough. They did not know God. Although they spent a lifetime studying scripture and their interpretations of scripture, they still did not recognize the Word of God when he was standing right in front of them.

Most of our theologians, pop-theologians, and bible interpreters, are no different today than they were back then. I was once one of these men. My need to be right, rather than love my brother, made this sin clear to me in my own life.

We must start following Jesus. When we follow Jesus, the gifts will manifest in the order in which Jesus chooses to reveal them. IMO.

Let's give the theologians their own corner to have their discussion in while the rest of us follow Jesus.

 

[JimB]

Theologians, pop-theologians, and bible interpreters have had a go of it and they get it wrong just as bad or worse than anybody.

We have had enough study about God and understanding of scripture to last anyone a life time.

The 'teachers of the law', theologians, pop-theologians, and bible interpreters of Jesus day knew the scripture well enough. They did not know God. Although they spent a lifetime studying scripture and their interpretations of scripture, they still did not recognize the Word of God when he was standing right in front of them.

Most of our theologians, pop-theologians, and bible interpreters, are no different today than they were back then. I was once one of these men. My need to be right, rather than love my brother, made this sin clear to me in my own life.

We must start following Jesus. When we follow Jesus, the gifts will manifest in the order in which Jesus chooses to reveal them. IMO.

Let's give the theologians their own corner to have their discussion in while the rest of us follow Jesus.

Well, I hope somebody clears it up, because the Pentecostal theologians, pop-theologians, and bible interpreters have really screwed it up for us.

I just may have to take on the task myself.

~Jim

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.​

 

[Always in His Presence]

I just may have to take on the task myself.

~Jim

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.​

I love sarcasm and your sense of humor.

 

[TasManOfGod]

Perhaps we all should take a deep breath and realise that the "gifts of the Spirit" are not for our benifit but for our use in order to "gift " others. We should also note that speaking in tongues is a way by which we can build ourselves up in order that the Spirit might work freely through us.
I am truly saddened by the opposition to the manner in which Christ has established His church.
Wake up all of you and ernestly seek after what God has for you and don't despise tounges or the working of miracles as many are prone to do.

 

[Gunny]

Perhaps we all should take a deep breath and realise that the "gifts of the Spirit" are not for our benifit but for our use in order to "gift " others. We should also note that speaking in tongues is a way by which we can build ourselves up in order that the Spirit might work freely through us.
I am truly saddened by the opposition to the manner in which Christ has established His church.
Wake up all of you and ernestly seek after what God has for you and don't despise tounges or the working of miracles as many are prone to do.

Amen, and Amen.

 

[Alive_Again]

I "coo'd" like a baby. I didn't have a clue about tongues (had a coo though).

 

[JEBrady]

Guess it's always good to have a c(l)oo.

 

[DLC]

I had an interesting thought while I was thinking about the issues around the initial evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I was tempted to put it on the AOG forum, but once bitten - twice shy!

However, the thought I had was that the initial evidence of people receiving the baptism in the Spirit was the gift of tongues as shown in the book of Acts. It was quite obvious that this was the case. This is the basis of AOG doctrine.

My conflict about that is that the first evidence of a person receiving the baptism is faith - because it is received by faith, and according to Hebrews, faith is the evidence of things not seen. But when I expressed this on the AOG forum, I came under some intense flak because some thought that I was attacking AOG doctrine.

But it is a matter of perspective. I believe that for the person receiving the baptism in the Spirit, the initial evidence is faith. he believes in faith that he is filled with the Spirit and therefore he launches out and speaks in tongues.

But, and here's the point, the observers who see the person being baptised in the Spirit, the initial evidence for them is the gift of tongues. How else are they going to know that the particular person they prayed for has actually received the baptism in the Spirit?

When we analyse it that way, then there is no conflict with AOG doctrine, because it is a matter of what is manifested by the person receiving the baptism and this manifestation is seen by the observers and for them the initial evidence is the gift of tongues!

But for the person receiving the baptism, he cannot speak in tongues into he first believes he is baptised in the Spirit, therefore faith comes first, then the gift of tongues. This is why I contend that for the person receiving the baptism in the Spirit, the initial evidence for him is faith. Then the next evidence which should flow naturally is the gift of tongues.

the problem with you idea is that it is not biblical. Tongue are not the evidence of the baptism of the Spirit. Tongues are not for believers but for the unsaved. 1 Cor 14:22
2 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers;
NASU

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

the problem with you idea is that it is not biblical. Tongue are not the evidence of the baptism of the Spirit. Tongues are not for believers but for the unsaved. 1 Cor 14:22
2 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers;
NASU

So how does this relate to Paul saying that he prayed in tongues more than them all? And how come he gave instructions to those who spoke in tongues that when they did speak in tongues they gave thanks to God well, but it was better if they did it in private before God because He is the only one who understands them when they speak?

How can unbelievers speak in tongues when as unbelievers they have absolutely no knowledge of the things of God, nor do they have any desire for the things of God unless the Holy Spirit awakens them to their sinfulness and causes them to cry out to God for mercy?

Taking one verse of the chapter, while ignoring the context of the chapter, and forming a whole opinion on it - is that Biblical?

It is obvious that you do not have the revelation from the Holy Spirit about the gift of tongues. Maybe that is because you are not chosen by God to be one of those who are to have it. Paul asks, "Do all speak in tongues?" The answer is implied that not all have this gift. You may very well be one of them.

So, if the Holy Spirit has not given you any spiritual revelation about the gift of tongues, do you think that you could be a credible authority on it?

I don't think so. It might be better to stick to the things that you know - what God has revealed to you, than to try and comment on things that are not part of your spiritual knowledge.

 

[Alive_Again]

Has anyone noticed how the enemy blatantly is able to put out filth to everyone who visits the forum website? I cant count the number of times I felt oppressed shortly after viewing a page.

I realize there is warfare as many doctrines that aren't of God are taken on scripturally.

But to advertise ECKANKAR - astral projection, demonic possession while you're out of your own body? How many tummies, women with cleavage, etc. are going to be shown on this "Christian" forum?

When will the Christians who run this site put their foot down to advertisers and say, "We're not going to advertise for the devil anymore?"

 

[JimB]

Has anyone noticed how the enemy blatantly is able to put out filth to everyone who visits the forum website? I cant count the number of times I felt oppressed shortly after viewing a page.

I realize there is warfare as many doctrines that aren't of God are taken on scripturally.

But to advertise ECKANKAR - astral projection, demonic possession while you're out of your own body? How many tummies, women with cleavage, etc. are going to be shown on this "Christian" forum?

When will the Christians who run this site put their foot down to advertisers and say, "We're not going to advertise for the devil anymore?"

Hmmm. All I can say is, For why should my freedom be limited by what someone else thinks? (1 Cor. 10.29)

If you don't want to see those pop-up ads why not send a support offering to CF then they will be blocked. I did and I never see ads. If you're seriously offended I would get out my credit card.

~Jim

It is no use walking anywhere to preach unless our walking is our preaching. ~St. Francis​

​