Toll houses: gnosticism or revealed truth?

[ArmyMatt]

I do not believe that such a thing exists in the works of St. Anthony, not until I personally read the book myself. And I doubt that he speaks about "aerial toll houses". Saying that St. Anthony or St. John Chrysostom or anyone similar to them, saying that they spoke about so called literal "aerial toll houses" is just a misunderstood twisted representation of what they were originally trying say.

I said they're misunderstood not discouraging from understanding them. I said if such a thing exists as "aerial toll houses" then there's no hope of salvation and only a small group of people can be saved. If it does "exist", than the majority of people should let go of all hope being saved, because not all people can become saints, not all can eliminate their passions and becomes passionless in order to be saved. Because it'd be better to live a, how should say this, "unholy" life here on earth (like people nowadays live) knowing that you won't be saved, because it's not wroth to live a life falsely hoping that you'll be saved and then know you'll be dragged into hell by some demons just because you couldn't pass one aerial toll house. Those that believe that the "aerial toll houses" to be real should leave all hope of salvation (unless they have the potential to become a saint), because hope is the first step on the road to disappointment for them.

Idk who's Fr. Thomas Hopko, but as a person who studies philosophy, the majority people whom I know, never agree on this subject, sure there are exclusions, but people just do not believe in it, never will I too, because there was never such a thing called "aerial toll houses" spoken by the people on the grounds. It's become so popular in this recent decade or maybe even more idk how much, it's poisoning the church and the people.

for one, for the umpteenth time, the toll houses are not to be taken literally. only those who deny the toll houses insist on a literalist view. and the toll houses are there even though those Fathers don't use that actual phrase.

for your second point, you really don't understand the toll houses and you really did not read this thread before commenting.

for your third point, Fr Hopko was an academic who studied philosophy and theology. that was me pointing out that when you said that we needed someone who studied both. well, Fr Tom is one of many (and I could speak to more).

 

[Not David]

I am not commenting anymore. People prefer to criticize something that is not even what it is even if explained a thousand times. I would have expected that from General Theology.

 

[Platina]

I was talking in this life, not in the afterlife.

I'm very well aware that Elder Cleopa believed in them. I have his book where he talks about them, I just haven't read it yet. What's your point of bringing that up?

I brought it up because your profile picture was of Elder Cleopa when I wrote my comment. It just seemed strange to me that you would have a picture of an Elder whom you believe propagates gnostic and pagan beliefs and teaches things that destroy the path to salvation, as you said.

 

[SingularityOne]

I am not commenting anymore. People prefer to criticize something that is not even what it is even if explained a thousand times. I would have expected that from General Theology.

Good ol’ strawman fallacy. Lol!

 

[~Anastasia~]

I am not commenting anymore. People prefer to criticize something that is not even what it is even if explained a thousand times. I would have expected that from General Theology.

From what I see (and I've already said it) ... people just aren't understanding each other.

I've heard priests explicitly say there is no such thing as toll houses ... and then go right on to describe the possibility of such an experience.

People who are quick to deny them are usually denying something that is NOT what is taught.

Taking it too far in a literal sense is an error. But that's not what "tollhouses" are. The misunderstanding is one that seldom seems to get worked out.


Since it's near Christmas, it makes me think of one side insisting that St. Nicholas (Bp of Myra) is a real person - and the other side insisting that Santa Claus can't possibly fly in a reindeer-powered sleigh to deliver gifts to all good children in one night.

 

[F.E.A.R.]

for one, for the umpteenth time, the toll houses are not to be taken literally. only those who deny the toll houses insist on a literalist view. and the toll houses are there even though those Fathers don't use that actual phrase.

And for the last time, there's no such thing as toll houses. I don't take the toll houses literally and I don't believe in them. It's those that insist on it saying that it's real is what makes rage. Yeah right the desert Fathers talk about "toll houses" but don't use an actual phrase. Whatever

for your second point, you really don't understand the toll houses and you really did not read this thread before commenting.

No it's you who doesn't understand what I'm saying. I read the the thread and the OP asked if this a doctrine or optional for EO. I said what I said. It's neither dogma nor optional. Deal with it.

I brought it up because your profile picture was of Elder Cleopa when I wrote my comment. It just seemed strange to me that you would have a picture of an Elder whom you believe propagates gnostic and pagan beliefs and teaches things that destroy the path to salvation, as you said.

And I changed it just because of people like you that I don't want to deal with. I have respect for Elders but that doesn't make them saints by any means standards. They'll be saints once the church official canonize them. It took almost 30 years to canonize St. Paisios. Other than that they're just ordinary people not different than us. Stop idolizing them. Even though he talked about them he didn't mean it literally. That doesn't change the fact that the core of this belief is gnostic.

 

[Not David]

From what I see (and I've already said it) ... people just aren't understanding each other.

I've heard priests explicitly say there is no such thing as toll houses ... and then go right on to describe the possibility of such an experience.

People who are quick to deny them are usually denying something that is NOT what is taught.

Taking it too far in a literal sense is an error. But that's not what "tollhouses" are. The misunderstanding is one that seldom seems to get worked out.


Since it's near Christmas, it makes me think of one side insisting that St. Nicholas (Bp of Myra) is a real person - and the other side insisting that Santa Claus can't possibly fly in a reindeer-powered sleigh to deliver gifts to all good children in one night.

Maybe if we call it Sugar Land then people would stop criticizing it.

 

[ArmyMatt]

And for the last time, there's no such thing as toll houses. I don't take the toll houses literally and I don't believe in them. It's those that insist on it saying that it's real is what makes rage. Yeah right the desert Fathers talk about "toll houses" but don't use an actual phrase. Whatever

except there are. they are in the saints lives and writings, as well as the services and the prayers and iconography. whether it's the taxing of souls, the toll houses/booths/gates/customs houses, the trial, or whatever, it's the same theology. whether or not you personally agree is irrelevant if they are found in the saints lives and writings, because the saints know more than you (or me).

No it's you who doesn't understand what I'm saying. I read the the thread and the OP asked if this a doctrine or optional for EO. I said what I said. It's neither dogma nor optional. Deal with it.

the saints say otherwise. I am not in the habit of ignoring them.

 

[DraculKain]

Am I the only one who doesn’t care one way or another? Jesus is Lord. Once death happens there is nothing to do but focus on Him, no matter what may come between that last breath and the particular judgment.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Am I the only one who doesn’t care one way or another? Jesus is Lord. Once death happens there is nothing to do but focus on Him, no matter what may come between that last breath and the particular judgment.

You know its about fear, that of the tollhouses and everything. I dont think its proper for a Christian to fear anything, but God. Demons are creatures!

Theres no reason to grant them so much power. In many ways I suspect that the very origin of this "demonology" is satanic in nature as it fuels fear of the devil.

We should be aware of the evil powers of cosmos, including Satan and his angels. That being said, to give them any room in the afterlife is just wrong.
Besides, I believe that facing the caustic energies of God will be penalty enough and painful enough, by far.

I dread facing God as unrighteous and I cant stand the thought of it. But Satan and his minions? Not so much. As I said he's just a creature and the first one to be chastised for his rebellion. He's restless on earth while he's awaiting the Second Coming of Christ.

He's just a tormented creature aware of his coming condemnation and eternal hell. Does he have powers? Sure he does, but nevertheless he's just a creature.

 

[ArmyMatt]

You know its about fear, that of the tollhouses and everything. I dont think its proper for a Christian to fear anything, but God. Demons are creatures!

Theres no reason to grant them so much power. In many ways I suspect that the very origin of this "demonology" is satanic in nature as it fuels fear of the devil.

We should be aware of the evil powers of cosmos, including Satan and his angels. That being said, to give them any room in the afterlife is just wrong.
Besides, I believe that facing the caustic energies of God will be penalty enough and painful enough, by far.

I dread facing God as unrighteous and I cant stand the thought of it. But Satan and his minions? Not so much. As I said he's just a creature and the first one to be chastised for his rebellion. He's restless on earth while he's awaiting the Second Coming of Christ.

He's just a tormented creature aware of his coming condemnation and eternal hell. Does he have powers? Sure he does, but nevertheless he's just a creature.

the point is not fear of them, but to fear God and prepare for them.

 

[Platina]

And I changed it just because of people like you that I don't want to deal with. I have respect for Elders but that doesn't make them saints by any means standards. They'll be saints once the church official canonize them. It took almost 30 years to canonize St. Paisios. Other than that they're just ordinary people not different than us. Stop idolizing them. Even though he talked about them he didn't mean it literally. That doesn't change the fact that the core of this belief is gnostic.

You're overreacting. I said nothing about idolizing the elders. In fact, I said nothing about what I think of Elder Cleopa.

I also didn't say Elder Cleopa thinks the toll houses are literal, so I'm not sure what the point of any of your reply is.