To whom and why God gave the Sabbaths?

[Bob S]

No, it is not. It is however a belief of numerous Hebrew/Jewish Roots believers. Messianic Jews as myself and the congregations I have participated within and among do not hold this position. What has yet to come is the restoration of Israel. Which occurs at the second coming. This is yet to come. Our hope, our faith, our eternal security is given through the Spirit is here, and now. The Spirit was given to comfort and protect the Messianic Jews, and was also given to those in the nations who would attach themselves to our Messiah. The belief that He has come, and has made the way, given us his Spirit and will restore all things at his return. So don't try and pin this on Messianic Jews. It's not from within our movement. Though many here in these forums who associate or identify as 'Messianic' do. Though they openly state they have no affiliation with mainstream Messianic Judaism.

Thank you for your reply. It is good to set the record straight. One thing I do not understand is your statement "and was also given to those in the nations who would attach themselves to our Messiah."
Does the MM believe the nation has to attach it self to Jesus before the inhabitants have ably to find Jesus? One thing for sure Jews accept Jesus everyday and there is no stipulation that the nation they come from has to be Christian.

 

[Shimshon]

Thank you for your reply. It is good to set the record straight. One thing I do not understand is your statement "and was also given to those in the nations who would attach themselves to our Messiah."
Does the MM believe the nation has to attach it self to Jesus before the inhabitants have ably to find Jesus? One thing for sure Jews accept Jesus everyday and there is no stipulation that the nation they come from has to be Christian.

I'm saying that the Spirit was given also to those outside Yisrael when they come to believe in the Holy One of Yisrael and all he has done for us. For us all, Jews and Gentiles. You simply can not divide Yisrael from our Messiah and expect to fulfill the calling he set out for you. Many Jews tried to do it, and you seem to focus on those who tried and failed. Many Jews, all the apostles, understood the inextricable union between Yeshua the Messiah and the nation of Yisrael, and our Torah. He is the fulfillment of our Torah. He completes it, not does away with it. It is He and He is it. The living breathing Word of God. In the flesh.

Yisrael's Messiah comes to consecrate and restore. All of his followers should be doing the work of our Lord. To restore that which is fallen, restore the sick, lift those up bound in the dust. Our Messiah is at work restoring the fortunes of Jacob, the seed of Abraham. The nations have a huge role to play. How do you think it helps this work of God when people claim the restoration really means the annihilation? And then continually twist the words of our witnesses against us? This has been the MO of the church for many hundreds of years. And is why in the end times is being overshadowed by the emergence of the Jewish body of Messiah. Which seem to be a thorn in the side of many reformation theologians. The Spirit is being breathed into the body of Messiah, and the dead bones are rejoined once again. Renewed, restored, and renowned for the sake of our fathers. For the sake of the promises our God spoke to them.

The nations are to glory in the glory of Messiah, which is not only his resurrected body but the resurrection of all those who sleep in the dust. Firstly, and namely, Yisrael. Reborn to newness of life the day she was given the Spirit of God, by grace, through faith. ALSO offered to the nations. So they may welcome in 'our' Holy One of Yisrael and King of Kings and Lord of Lords. As he lives and reigns from Mt. Zion in Jerusalem, forevermore.

 

[Bob S]

I'm saying that the Spirit was given also to those outside Yisrael when they come to believe in the Holy One of Yisrael and all he has done for us. For us all, Jews and Gentiles. You simply can not divide Yisrael from our Messiah and expect to fulfill the calling he set out for you. Many Jews tried to do it, and you seem to focus on those who tried and failed. Many Jews, all the apostles, understood the inextricable union between Yeshua the Messiah and the nation of Yisrael, and our Torah. He is the fulfillment of our Torah. He completes it, not does away with it. It is He and He is it. The living breathing Word of God. In the flesh.

Yisrael's Messiah comes to consecrate and restore. All of his followers should be doing the work of our Lord. To restore that which is fallen, restore the sick, lift those up bound in the dust. Our Messiah is at work restoring the fortunes of Jacob, the seed of Abraham. The nations have a huge role to play. How do you think it helps this work of God when people claim the restoration really means the annihilation? And then continually twist the words of our witnesses against us? This has been the MO of the church for many hundreds of years. And is why in the end times is being overshadowed by the emergence of the Jewish body of Messiah. Which seem to be a thorn in the side of many reformation theologians. The Spirit is being breathed into the body of Messiah, and the dead bones are rejoined once again. Renewed, restored, and renowned for the sake of our fathers. For the sake of the promises our God spoke to them.

The nations are to glory in the glory of Messiah, which is not only his resurrected body but the resurrection of all those who sleep in the dust. Firstly, and namely, Yisrael. Reborn to newness of life the day she was given the Spirit of God, by grace, through faith. ALSO offered to the nations. So they may welcome in 'our' Holy One of Yisrael and King of Kings and Lord of Lords. As he lives and reigns from Mt. Zion in Jerusalem, forevermore.

Yes, you tell me all of this and Paul tells me the Torah was until Jesus. Paul tells me I am not under the law and Jesus tells me that not one jot nor one tittle would pass from the law UNTIL His mission was fulfilled. Torah observers are not completely compliant yet we are told His mission has not been fulfilled. If His mission has not yet been fulfilled then we should should be 100% compliant to the "not one jot....".

By the way, Jesus didn't have to "do away" with Torah. The Israelites broke the covenant. The covenant was Torah and it was completely CONDITIONAL. If you will I will. He did, but they didn't. The covenant could have lasted forever. It was Israel's choice. Before the foundation of the Earth God knew Israel would fail and Jesus would have to come to redeem man. The priesthood changed and when the priesthood changes so do the laws. Jesus' ritual laws are different from the rituals God gave Israel. The new covenant is different. Since I am a child of Jesus I intend to go by His laws not the laws of the old priesthood.

 

[Ken Rank]

Yes, you tell me all of this and Paul tells me the Torah was until Jesus. Paul tells me I am not under the law and Jesus tells me that not one jot nor one tittle would pass from the law UNTIL His mission was fulfilled. Torah observers are not completely compliant yet we are told His mission has not been fulfilled. If His mission has not yet been fulfilled then we should should be 100% compliant to the "not one jot....".

By the way, Jesus didn't have to "do away" with Torah. The Israelites broke the covenant. The covenant was Torah and it was completely CONDITIONAL. If you will I will. He did, but they didn't. The covenant could have lasted forever. It was Israel's choice. Before the foundation of the Earth God knew Israel would fail and Jesus would have to come to redeem man. The priesthood changed and when the priesthood changes so do the laws. Jesus' ritual laws are different from the rituals God gave Israel. The new covenant is different. Since I am a child of Jesus I intend to go by His laws not the laws of the old priesthood.

There is so many things that are simply not accurate here, Bob. You view the Scriptures from a 21st century English mindset and I believe brother, that you can develop a relationship with God with such an approach. But, you leave food on the table by not taking into consideration the Hebraic nuances that do exist throughout the NT but that your paradigm simply doesn't allow you to consider. One example... both the Levitical and Melchizedekian priesthoods are called everlasting. The word translated as 'changed' in Hebrews doesn't mean 'change' it means "to transfer" and since both have been called "everlasting" then the WEIGHT is transferred from one to the other but that fact doesn't abrogate the everlasting status of the one the weight was transferred from. It just means a greater focus is placed on one over the other.

Let me share a very Jewish observation and I share this because the authors of the books you hold dear were predominately Jewish... their paradigm matters. In the first century a teacher named Shamai taught the "letter of the law" and his positions, for the most part, were the halacha, the Jewish interpretation (or path if you will) of the day. Living at the same time was another teacher, Hillel, who taught "the spirit of the law." Long after his death and the death of Shamai, a number of rabbis gathered and discussed the two very different views and they determined, "Shamai was correct, but Hillel was more correct." My point is that WE live in a society where things are right or wrong, black or white, up or down. The Hebraic mind, especially in that day before the modern Western cultural influences infected the world, could look at two seemingly very opposing views and not pick and then pit one against the other but accept that both can be true but one be "more true." We have a hard time grasping that... but the authors inspired to write the NT would have understood that line of reasoning because they were "born into it."

Weight can be placed on one priesthood without abrogating the other.

I will leave you be brother. You clearly are in a place where the things you hold dear are things you need right now and I do not desire to cause any confusion. So, I think I will leave this thread and move on to another if and when another thread sounds interesting.

Blessings one and all.
Ken

 

[klutedavid]

Yes, and I am 100% convinced that you and I are part of Israel. The new covenant that you quote is made with Judah and Israel. There is NO covenant made with gentiles (pagans)... we are either part of Israel or out of covenant. But, Paul told us in Eph. 2.... we WERE gentiles and WERE aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel but are NOW fellow citizens. So, that is what we are... not because Ken says so, but because God inspired Paul to say so.

Hello Ken.

Your under the idea that Gentiles are part of Israel.

Here is the text you quoted to support this idea.

Ephesians 2
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, you who formerly were far off have been brought near and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace.

This text does not say that Gentiles join Israel. The text says, 'you who formerly were far off have been brought near'. Being brought near is not converting
Gentiles into Jews. Further, the text clearly states, 'so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man'. This new man is the new creation.

The abolition of the written law broke the barrier, the wall, between Jew and Gentile. One new creation in Christ Jesus.

 

[klutedavid]

Yet, Acts 22:3 has him being 'raised in this city', namely Jerusalem. But you obfuscated the verse to reach an opposite conclusion than the actual verse states.

Ah yes, Philippians 3. How does Paul describe his raising and Jewish status.

4 though I myself have reasons for such confidence. If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more:
5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee;
6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.​

Seems Paul can't stop identifying as a Jew through and through. When Paul states he is 'forgetting what is behind him' it is not Judaism he is forsaking, but the notion following the law leads to ones own righteousness. Which is the subject of all Paul's letter. Righteousness apart from 'following the law'. Not apart from being a Jew. Nor apart from the nation of Israel. You continue to obfuscate Paul's letters. You use Romans 10 to separate Judaism from Christianity when it does nothing of the sort. I've already shown you where your proof text is actually the OT statement of righteousness by faith. But you seemly refuse to see it. Habbakuk, the righteous will live by faith. A uniquely Jewish statement, given by God to the Jewish nation.

And you seemingly forget or ignore the very next chapter in Romans...the dreaded Romans 11 (The remnant of Yisrael).

The Remnant of Israel
1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel:

3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me” ?
4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,
​

Both Jews and Gentiles are equal in regards to righteousness, there is no difference between how we attain it. This is not your witness. You're trying to teach me that righteousness has been striped from Israel and all who follow the law, and only comes through rejecting our Judaism, our lawfulness, and our calling, forsaking all we were born to be. By God himself.

In regards to righteousness there is no Jew nor Greek. So try eliminating your Greek mindset and stop trying to erase only the Jewish ones, so as to fit your false teachings of dispensational supersessionism.

Paul said God has NOT rejected "His people" (Israel/Jews), that there 'is' a remnant even this very day. (am yisrael chai!) chosen by grace that the elect (of Yisrael) 'did' obtain. ALL without rejecting or forsaking our birthright as Jews from the nation of Yisrael. No 'other' church that we were lead to, no other religion, no other law, no other transformation needed but that from within. Which does not erase or throw away as dung our Jewish heritage and traditions. The church really needs to get another form of missionizing...it's failed miserably for centuries in regards to Jews. And explains why Messianic Judaism is gathering scores of former church goers.

Hello Shimshon.

Appreciate your interest in this topic.

You quoted from the letter to the Philippians to support your Hebrew interpretation.

Ah yes, Philippians 3. How does Paul describe his raising and Jewish status. 4 though I myself have reasons for such confidence. If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more...

Now that was a good example of selective quoting, you omitted line three and line seven in the quotation. If you included those omitted lines, then we have more of the context, this alters what Paul is saying in this passage. The extra two lines have been added and the passage is reproduced below.

Philippians 3
3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, 4 although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. 7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.

How Paul defines the word 'flesh', is the key to understanding this passage. To illustrate what the flesh represents, Saul then boasts of his flesh, i.e., 'a Hebrew of Hebrews'.

Though Saul stand on the pedestal of being a Hebrew of Hebrews, Saul knows that his flesh must die. Saul knows that he must crucify his flesh, Paul knows he is still Saul if he stands on the pedestal of being a Hebrew of Hebrews. Whatever Paul gained in his former life as Saul are listed in the debit column. Saul has been crucified, Paul became alive and now lives in Christ.

The next line hammers this truth home.

8 ...for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish.

Saul's Jewish past is but rubbish, the flesh counts for nothing, Paul is now a new creation in Christ.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

The old creation consisted of Jews and Gentiles, the new creation consists of spiritual citizens in Christ.

Seems Paul can't stop identifying as a Jew through and through. When Paul states he is 'forgetting what is behind him' it is not Judaism he is forsaking

This is exactly what Paul identifies as the flesh, his Judaism. Saul was the Hebrew of Hebrews, alas Saul is no more. Crucify your flesh Shimshon (your identity) and refrain from selective quoting.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Shimson.

Thanks for your attention to detail.

Seems Paul can't stop identifying as a Jew through and through. When Paul states he is 'forgetting what is behind him' it is not Judaism he is forsaking, but the notion following the law leads to ones own righteousness.

Paul is forced to boast in the flesh because of the false circumcision.

Paul is a new creation in Christ, therefore, the baby and the bath water
are thrown out.

Which is the subject of all Paul's letter. Righteousness apart from 'following the law'. Not apart from being a Jew. Nor apart from the nation of Israel. You continue to obfuscate Paul's letters.

Hammering the new creation, the old creation will be destroyed by fire.
Paul preached the death and the resurrection of the Christ, the Gospel.
Your nationality is not important, Christ combined the two major groups,
Jew and Gentile into one new man.

You use Romans 10 to separate Judaism from Christianity when it does nothing of the sort. I've already shown you where your proof text is actually the OT statement of righteousness by faith. But you seemly refuse to see it. Habbakuk, the righteous will live by faith. A uniquely Jewish statement, given by God to the Jewish nation.

The Jewish nation has not existed for two thousand years, why do you raise
this point. Israel has already undergone the judgement of God. Habbakuk certainly introduces a righteousness by faith. Even Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God.

Yet until Christ established the New Covenant in his blood. No one could
ever be saved.

Paul preached the new creation in Christ. Christ created a new man from both the Jew and the Greek. Your past genealogy is null and void.

And you seemingly forget or ignore the very next chapter in Romans...the dreaded Romans 11 (The remnant of Yisrael).

I did not forget or ignore this very difficult chapter.

The Remnant of Israel
1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel:

3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me” ?
4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,
​

Both Jews and Gentiles are equal in regards to righteousness, there is no difference between how we attain it. This is not your witness.

Paul constantly spoke of a remnant within Israel, through the three chapters
Romans(9,10,11). We don't attain anything and especially not righteousness.

The righteousness of Christ is a free gift granted to those who believe in
Jesus Christ. There is no Jew or Greek in the new creation.

You're trying to teach me that righteousness has been striped from Israel and all who follow the law, and only comes through rejecting our Judaism, our lawfulness, and our calling, forsaking all we were born to be. By God himself.

Israel never had it's own righteousness, theocratic Israel has not existed for
two thousand years. The law applies to wicked people, the righteous have
Christ within.

In regards to righteousness there is no Jew nor Greek.

Correct.

So try eliminating your Greek mindset and stop trying to erase only
the Jewish ones, so as to fit your false teachings of dispensational supersessionism.

Both Jew and Greek mindsets are void in Christ.

I am not a card carrying member of the dispensation theology.

Paul said God has NOT rejected "His people" (Israel/Jews), that there 'is' a remnant even this very day. (am yisrael chai!) chosen by grace that the elect (of Yisrael) 'did' obtain. ALL without rejecting or forsaking our birthright as Jews from the nation of Yisrael. No 'other' church that we were lead to, no other religion, no other law, no other transformation needed but that from within. Which does not erase or throw away as dung our Jewish heritage and traditions. The church really needs to get another form of missionizing...it's failed miserably for centuries in regards to Jews. And explains why Messianic Judaism is gathering scores of former church goers.

Your birthright, your fleshly identity, becomes redundant in Christ.
This is not my teaching, this is Paul's teaching.
There is probably no more brilliant race of people on earth, than the Jews.
They have over 145 Nobel prizes and Bob Dylan (Zimmerman) was recently awarded one. Not surprised that you cherish your genealogy so much.

I knew a relief teacher that taught in a different school every day. I asked
him what his favorite school was, he replied, a Christian school. Then I asked
him what school he dreaded, he said, a Jewish school. I asked him why the
Jewish school was so bad. He said, from the moment you walk in the classroom
they are on top of you. It is almost impossible to control them, they debate
and argue everything. He said it is chaotic and exhausting to teach at the
Jewish school.

The name 'Messianic Judaism' is yet another faction, in a never ending stream
of factions in Christianity.

 

[Ken Rank]

Hello Ken.

Your under the idea that Gentiles are part of Israel.

Here is the text you quoted to support this idea.

Ephesians 2
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, you who formerly were far off have been brought near and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace.

This text does not say that Gentiles join Israel. The text says, 'you who formerly were far off have been brought near'. Being brought near is not converting
Gentiles into Jews. Further, the text clearly states, 'so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man'. This new man is the new creation.

The abolition of the written law broke the barrier, the wall, between Jew and Gentile. One new creation in Christ Jesus.

You cut short the text brother... I won't flood the thread with the whole chapter so here are the pertinent points:


Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- (12) that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Paul is talking to the Christians in Ephesus and he tells them that they were:

1. At one time, gentiles in the flesh
2. At one time, without Christ
3. At one time, aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel
4. At one time, strangers of the covenants of promise
5. At one time, having no hope
6. At one time, without God

Then Paul says:

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

So, things changed... these former gentiles in Ephesus who were far off have now been brought near. And finally...

Ephesians 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

The wording "fellow citizens" by context can't be anything but a tie to the use of "Commonwealth." So, we have a people who were gentiles and who were aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel and are now, through Christ, fellow citizens. NOT a replacement, but simply "fellow citizens."

This line of reasoning is not unique David. When Israel came out of Egypt, foreigners, strangers... other slaves who might have been Egyptians AND from other nations but who were NOT Israel, came out with the Israelites. When they all got to Sinai, three things were said of those foreigners...

1. They were to be treated AS NATIVE BORN
2. They were to assimilate INTO the tribes they traveled with
3. The Law was given to the stranger along with Israel, and all would be blessed if they kept it and cursed when they did not.

In 1611, the word gentile was used for ethnos in the NT and for goy in the OT. It marked one who did not belong to God, a pagan... somebody not part of God's Israel. This is why Noah Webster defined the word "gentile" in the 1828 dictionary that standardized modern English (and by the way he defined words as they were understood in the bible) as "a pagan, a heathen, one who is neither Jew or Christian." The idea of a "gentile Christian" was an oxymoron until early in the 20th century when the culture began to cause a shift in the definition of the word gentile. Today, David, we use that SAME WORD but with a NEW definition. Today it means, "a believer who is not Jewish." However, the underlying Greek or Hebrew would still be, "a pagan, a heathen, one who is not part of Israel."

We have come in faith to the God of Israel through the messiah of Israel and we have been "grafted into" what? The answer is, God's Israel... which is why Paul wrote that we WERE GENTILES and WERE aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel but are NOW fellow citizens.

Hebrews 8:8-11 is talking about you, the covenant within which you belong. But do notice, no gentile is mentioned anywhere in those verses, not once. In fact, you will NOT find a verse that uses the word gentile in relation to one being in covenant with God. A gentile can come and become part of the covenant, but like the foreigners who came out of Egypt, that gentile ceases to be a gentile and instead is to be treated as a "native born" Israelite. We are part of Israel or we are not part of the covenant. There is no wording in the NT that says the gentiles have a covenant independent of Hebrews 8:8-11. If you can find it, you can sway me. Until you find it, I am otherwise pretty firm on this... respectfully.

Peace.
Ken

 

[Ken Rank]

The abolition of the written law broke the barrier, the wall, between Jew and Gentile. One new creation in Christ Jesus.

I spoke at a conference in Orlando a few years ago and I began the talk jokingly referring to a disease that permeates the faith, I called it N.D.D. That stands for, "Narrow Definition Disorder." We all go through it from time to time, myself included. You have a narrow definition of law here David. You see the word "law" in the NT and think that it is always what was written at Sinai. What you are not taking into consideration is that Jewish Halacha (what we might today call Rabbinic interpretations and additions added to God's law) as well as the decree of GUILT that would by nature point to the sinner, are called "law" or "decrees" in the NT.. and we have wrongly painted them all as Torah or God's Law. Here is an example...

Col 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

We teach this as "God's law." But if they were the case, if God's law was nailed to the cross, then wasn't homosexuality nailed to the cross? And the underlined above... is "do not steal" or "Worship the LORD YOUR GOD" against us? If you say "of course not" but then insist he nailed the Torah to the cross, then we are really undermining the "of course not." What was against us? The answer is SIN and DEATH... and what does the Torah do beyond point out what is good and evil or right and wrong in God's eyes? It pronounces our GUILT.... the Torah is the measuring stick that cries out for a need for grace for us. If we take away the measuring stick that says we need grace, then we no longer need grace but the thing point to our need for that has been made silent. The thing nailed to the cross, the handwriting of ordinances (dogma - G1378) was the decree that said we deserve DEATH. Yeshua has freed us from the pronouncement of guilt, he nailed THAT to the cross so that it no longer hangs over us. He did not nail those things God views as good or evil, right or wrong... he nailed the document that said, "You deserve death."

 

[Bob S]

There is so many things that are simply not accurate here, Bob. You view the Scriptures from a 21st century English mindset and I believe brother, that you can develop a relationship with God with such an approach. But, you leave food on the table by not taking into consideration the Hebraic nuances that do exist throughout the NT but that your paradigm simply doesn't allow you to consider. One example... both the Levitical and Melchizedekian priesthoods are called everlasting. The word translated as 'changed' in Hebrews doesn't mean 'change' it means "to transfer" and since both have been called "everlasting" then the WEIGHT is transferred from one to the other but that fact doesn't abrogate the everlasting status of the one the weight was transferred from. It just means a greater focus is placed on one over the other.

Let me share a very Jewish observation and I share this because the authors of the books you hold dear were predominately Jewish... their paradigm matters. In the first century a teacher named Shamai taught the "letter of the law" and his positions, for the most part, were the halacha, the Jewish interpretation (or path if you will) of the day. Living at the same time was another teacher, Hillel, who taught "the spirit of the law." Long after his death and the death of Shamai, a number of rabbis gathered and discussed the two very different views and they determined, "Shamai was correct, but Hillel was more correct." My point is that WE live in a society where things are right or wrong, black or white, up or down. The Hebraic mind, especially in that day before the modern Western cultural influences infected the world, could look at two seemingly very opposing views and not pick and then pit one against the other but accept that both can be true but one be "more true." We have a hard time grasping that... but the authors inspired to write the NT would have understood that line of reasoning because they were "born into it."

Weight can be placed on one priesthood without abrogating the other.

I will leave you be brother. You clearly are in a place where the things you hold dear are things you need right now and I do not desire to cause any confusion. So, I think I will leave this thread and move on to another if and when another thread sounds interesting.

Blessings one and all.
Ken

Hi Ken, one must do what one one must do. Sorry to see you go. It will be interesting when we get to Heaven to find out if the Bible has been tampered with so much that it caused people to be duped. Man certainly has messed up a great deal of "stuff". I have always depended on the power of the Holy Spirit to guide translators, especially like the NIV and NLT. Many learned men from different backgrounds came together and used the most recent translations of the Greek and Hebrew. They used the earliest manuscripts and determined the best English words to best describe those early writings. That, in some people's opinion, is not good enough. Some believe they have to tinker with the words and make them say what their preconceived ideas warrant. As I have tried to point out on this forum that becomes a very slippery thing to do because there are many passages that have to be altered in some way and some that cannot be altered and this leaves some to disregard whole sections of the New Testament, too bad.

 

[Bob S]

I spoke at a conference in Orlando a few years ago and I began the talk jokingly referring to a disease that permeates the faith, I called it N.D.D. That stands for, "Narrow Definition Disorder." We all go through it from time to time, myself included. You have a narrow definition of law here David. You see the word "law" in the NT and think that it is always what was written at Sinai. What you are not taking into consideration is that Jewish Halacha (what we might today call Rabbinic interpretations and additions added to God's law) as well as the decree of GUILT that would by nature point to the sinner, are called "law" or "decrees" in the NT.. and we have wrongly painted them all as Torah or God's Law. Here is an example...

Col 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

First of all the passage does not tell us that every word of the law was against the Israelites. In fact if a law is broken it condemns otherwise it is a blessing. Any law throughout the ages that has to do with moral issues is immutable. Laws like "what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day." which were dealing with not morality, but ceremony or ritualism have been wiped out. Even the Jews recognize that their weekly Sabbath is a ritual.

We teach this as "God's law." But if they were the case, if God's law was nailed to the cross, then wasn't homosexuality nailed to the cross? And the underlined above... is "do not steal" or "Worship the LORD YOUR GOD" against us? If you say "of course not" but then insist he nailed the Torah to the cross, then we are really undermining the "of course not." What was against us? The answer is SIN and DEATH... and what does the Torah do beyond point out what is good and evil or right and wrong in God's eyes? It pronounces our GUILT.... the Torah is the measuring stick that cries out for a need for grace for us. If we take away the measuring stick that says we need grace, then we no longer need grace but the thing point to our need for that has been made silent. The thing nailed to the cross, the handwriting of ordinances (dogma - G1378) was the decree that said we deserve DEATH. Yeshua has freed us from the pronouncement of guilt, he nailed THAT to the cross so that it no longer hangs over us. He did not nail those things God views as good or evil, right or wrong... he nailed the document that said, "You deserve death."

Even you have gone on record telling us the covenant made with Abraham is forever, unconditional. I would assume you would agree that the Noahide covenant is an unconditional covenant also. The covenant made with Israel was a conditional covenant, "IF". I feel certain that God did not condone stealing, homosexuality or any other immoral act Going clear back to Adam. So your theory that we today have no morality because we like Paul believe we are not under Torah is pure bunk. You have to use denial and twisting to justify your belief system.

 

[klutedavid]

You cut short the text brother... I won't flood the thread with the whole chapter so here are the pertinent points:


Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- (12) that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Paul is talking to the Christians in Ephesus and he tells them that they were:

1. At one time, gentiles in the flesh
2. At one time, without Christ
3. At one time, aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel
4. At one time, strangers of the covenants of promise
5. At one time, having no hope
6. At one time, without God

Then Paul says:

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

So, things changed... these former gentiles in Ephesus who were far off have now been brought near. And finally...

Ephesians 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

The wording "fellow citizens" by context can't be anything but a tie to the use of "Commonwealth." So, we have a people who were gentiles and who were aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel and are now, through Christ, fellow citizens. NOT a replacement, but simply "fellow citizens."

This line of reasoning is not unique David. When Israel came out of Egypt, foreigners, strangers... other slaves who might have been Egyptians AND from other nations but who were NOT Israel, came out with the Israelites. When they all got to Sinai, three things were said of those foreigners...

1. They were to be treated AS NATIVE BORN
2. They were to assimilate INTO the tribes they traveled with
3. The Law was given to the stranger along with Israel, and all would be blessed if they kept it and cursed when they did not.

In 1611, the word gentile was used for ethnos in the NT and for goy in the OT. It marked one who did not belong to God, a pagan... somebody not part of God's Israel. This is why Noah Webster defined the word "gentile" in the 1828 dictionary that standardized modern English (and by the way he defined words as they were understood in the bible) as "a pagan, a heathen, one who is neither Jew or Christian." The idea of a "gentile Christian" was an oxymoron until early in the 20th century when the culture began to cause a shift in the definition of the word gentile. Today, David, we use that SAME WORD but with a NEW definition. Today it means, "a believer who is not Jewish." However, the underlying Greek or Hebrew would still be, "a pagan, a heathen, one who is not part of Israel."

We have come in faith to the God of Israel through the messiah of Israel and we have been "grafted into" what? The answer is, God's Israel... which is why Paul wrote that we WERE GENTILES and WERE aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel but are NOW fellow citizens.

Hebrews 8:8-11 is talking about you, the covenant within which you belong. But do notice, no gentile is mentioned anywhere in those verses, not once. In fact, you will NOT find a verse that uses the word gentile in relation to one being in covenant with God. A gentile can come and become part of the covenant, but like the foreigners who came out of Egypt, that gentile ceases to be a gentile and instead is to be treated as a "native born" Israelite. We are part of Israel or we are not part of the covenant. There is no wording in the NT that says the gentiles have a covenant independent of Hebrews 8:8-11. If you can find it, you can sway me. Until you find it, I am otherwise pretty firm on this... respectfully.

Peace.
Ken

Hello Ken.

Thanks for your reply.

You cut short the text brother... I won't flood the thread with the whole chapter so here are the pertinent points:

The pertinent points are the points that you consider to be the pertinent points, Ken. You claimed that I cut the text short? May I have your attention here, I looked at your reply and I noticed that you cut the text short. I have inserted your omission, which I believe that you will agree should not be cut from the text.

Paul is talking to the Christians in Ephesus and he tells them that they were:

1. At one time, gentiles in the flesh
2. At one time, uncircumcised
3. At one time, without Christ
4. At one time, aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel
5. At one time, strangers of the covenants of promise
6. At one time, having no hope
7. At one time, without God

Well do you agree Ken?

I cannot proceed with the rest of your reply until the omission is verified
by you.

 

[BABerean2]

Weight can be placed on one priesthood without abrogating the other.

The "other" was not abrogated.
It was fulfilled at Calvary.

You cannot climb Mount Sinai.
It's boundaries were marked.

Any animal that strayed onto it was to be killed.
No person found in the Old Testament kept it.

You cannot be under the mediation of any other priest or any other law, but that of Christ if you are in Him.

It is the "yoke" in Acts chapter 15.

It is the ministration of death in 2 Corinthians chapter 3.

It was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the seed could come to whom the promise was made, Galatians chapter 3.

It is the covenant of "bondage" to be "cast out" in Galatians chapter 4.

It was made "obsolete" by the New Covenant in Hebrews 8:13.

Come to Mount Zion and the city built out of 2 pieces of wood and a handful of nails, by the greatest carpenter who ever lived.

Its laws were not chiseled into stone.
They were carved into a wooden cross and are found recorded by the man who saw it all in 1 John chapter 3. He described himself as "the disciple Jesus loved."

Heb 12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,　

Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,　

Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.　

.

 

[Ken Rank]

Hello Ken.

Thanks for your reply.

The pertinent points are the points that you consider to be the pertinent points, Ken. You claimed that I cut the text short? May I have your attention here, I looked at your reply and I noticed that you cut the text short. I have inserted your omission, which I believe that you will agree should not be cut from the text.

Paul is talking to the Christians in Ephesus and he tells them that they were:

1. At one time, gentiles in the flesh
2. At one time, uncircumcised
3. At one time, without Christ
4. At one time, aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel
5. At one time, strangers of the covenants of promise
6. At one time, having no hope
7. At one time, without God

Well do you agree Ken?

I cannot proceed with the rest of your reply until the omission is verified
by you.

I didn't omit it because of any other reason than the point is made without it. There were many parts of that chapter I could have included, I included what was pertinent to us not being gentiles anymore. The non-Jews were called uncircumcised by the Jews, so what? The non-Jews WERE gentiles, the non-Jews WERE aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel... the non-Jews that come to Yeshua ARE NOW fellow citizens. The context is not only plain here, but when one considers the fact that there is no covenant made with gentiles but rather that Hebrews 8:8-11 which is speaking about the new covenant made through Yeshua's blood... only speaks of Judah and Israel and NO hint of gentiles, then we are either part of Israel... fellow citizens... or we are not in covenant. Couple that with the word gentile being defined as a pagan or heathen until the last century or so... then historically a gentile-Christian would be an oxymoron. It is only in modern time that we have this position. We have come in faith to the God of Israel through the Messiah of Israel and we are not part of His Israel? No... we ARE fellow citizens of the Commonwealth of Israel.

Shalom.
Ken

 

[klutedavid]

I didn't omit it because of any other reason than the point is made without it. There were many parts of that chapter I could have included, I included what was pertinent to us not being gentiles anymore. The non-Jews were called uncircumcised by the Jews, so what? The non-Jews WERE gentiles, the non-Jews WERE aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel... the non-Jews that come to Yeshua ARE NOW fellow citizens. The context is not only plain here, but when one considers the fact that there is no covenant made with gentiles but rather that Hebrews 8:8-11 which is speaking about the new covenant made through Yeshua's blood... only speaks of Judah and Israel and NO hint of gentiles, then we are either part of Israel... fellow citizens... or we are not in covenant. Couple that with the word gentile being defined as a pagan or heathen until the last century or so... then historically a gentile-Christian would be an oxymoron. It is only in modern time that we have this position. We have come in faith to the God of Israel through the Messiah of Israel and we are not part of His Israel? No... we ARE fellow citizens of the Commonwealth of Israel.

Shalom.
Ken

Hello Ken.

Thanks for the effort.

You need to pull on the reins and stop the stage coach at this point, Ken.
You said, 'the point is made without it'. Jesus was circumcised and so
was Paul, are you saying that circumcision is not valid, not important?

Paul referred to circumcision and uncircumcision in the lines below.

Ephesians 2
11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel.

The Gentiles in the flesh were precisely 'the uncircumcised', that is what
the Jews called the Greeks. This is a very important physical marker,
a point of division between Jew and Greek. Circumcision was invoked
upon Abraham, this was the physical marker in the Abrahamic Covenant

The covenant is sealed in Genesis, when Abraham agrees that the sign of the covenant will appear on the bodies of all his male descendants through circumcision.

Genesis 17 (a covenant of promise)
10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you every male among you shall be circumcised.

This is one very important covenant. This is the covenant that Paul focuses
his attention on through the letter to the Romans. The dogs that ate below
the Master's table were the uncircumcised. If you attempted to approach
the inner court of the temple, you would be stoned to death. Only circumcised Jews could proceed to the inner court of the temple, Gentile dogs were
forbidden.

I will permit you to omit this covenant marker, in order to make your point.

If and only if, you clearly define first, whether your concept of citizenship. Is a
physical or spiritual citizenship, in the commonwealth of Israel? Are you talking about an earthly Israel, or the heavenly kingdom?

 

[Ken Rank]

I will permit you to omit this covenant marker, in order to make your point.

Hey, thanks.

If and only if, you clearly define first, whether your concept of citizenship. Is a physical or spiritual citizenship, in the commonwealth of Israel? Are you talking about an earthly Israel, or the heavenly kingdom?

The Kingdom will be on earth, Messiah will reign from David's throne as prophesied. The meek inherit the earth, not heaven... heaven was not made for man. With that question answered, you are changing the subject by focusing on the idiomatic references to Jews and non-Jews (circumcision and uncircumcision) and while a marker of the covenant, I think you have missed some important facts. Aside from Torah speaking on an 8 day old male being circumcised and no verse commanding an adult male to be circumcised, the "sign" of the everlasting covenant is the Sabbath.

Exodus 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that you may know that I am the LORD your God.

But, this isn't a discussion on the details which you seem to want to focus on which generally suggests a person can't address the question and has to deflect. So, I have answered your question, please answer mine...

The covenant to which you see yourself as part (Hebrews 8:8-11) is specifically for Judah and Israel. There is no mention, at all... anywhere in connection to the new covenant with anyone but Judah and Israel. Since you believe yourself to be a gentile (a pagan, heathen, etc.).... please show me a verse from the bible that states the covenant is made with gentiles or pagans. Thanks.

 

[BABerean2]

The meek inherit the earth, not heaven... heaven was not made for man.

Heb 12:18　 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
　
Heb 12:19　 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:　

Heb 12:20　 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:　

Heb 12:21　 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake　

Heb 12:22　 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,　
(Our destination is not on this rotten, sin-cursed world.)

Heb 12:23　 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,　

Heb 12:24　 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.　
.

 

[klutedavid]

Hey, thanks.

Hello Ken.

This thread has some depth to it, I will reply to your post in a few shorter posts.

The Kingdom will be on earth

This statement of yours is an antithesis of what the scripture actually teaches, Ken.

John 18
36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

The kingdom is not on earth, this is the heavenly and the true kingdom. So Ken
I require you to decide whether you accept this or not?

Messiah will reign from David's throne as prophesied.

Your looking for a temporal fulfillment of prophecy, you need to see the deeper spiritual fulfillment, the eternal fulfillment.

2 Corinthians 4
18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

David's throne was but a poor reflection of the reality of the eternal, and heavenly throne.

Ephesians 1
20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

There is Jesus sitting on the throne, the heavenly throne of David. Everything has been subjected to Jesus.

Let Peter explain this fulfillment of the descendant of David sitting on the throne, Ken.

Acts 2
30 And so, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay. 32 This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.'

Jesus is the fulfillment of everything, all things have been fulfilled in Christ.

 

[klutedavid]

Hey, thanks.



The Kingdom will be on earth, Messiah will reign from David's throne as prophesied. The meek inherit the earth, not heaven... heaven was not made for man. With that question answered, you are changing the subject by focusing on the idiomatic references to Jews and non-Jews (circumcision and uncircumcision) and while a marker of the covenant, I think you have missed some important facts. Aside from Torah speaking on an 8 day old male being circumcised and no verse commanding an adult male to be circumcised, the "sign" of the everlasting covenant is the Sabbath.

Exodus 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that you may know that I am the LORD your God.

But, this isn't a discussion on the details which you seem to want to focus on which generally suggests a person can't address the question and has to deflect. So, I have answered your question, please answer mine...

The covenant to which you see yourself as part (Hebrews 8:8-11) is specifically for Judah and Israel. There is no mention, at all... anywhere in connection to the new covenant with anyone but Judah and Israel. Since you believe yourself to be a gentile (a pagan, heathen, etc.).... please show me a verse from the bible that states the covenant is made with gentiles or pagans. Thanks.

With that question answered, you are changing the subject by focusing on the idiomatic references to Jews and non-Jews (circumcision and uncircumcision) and while a marker of the covenant, I think you have missed some important facts. Aside from Torah speaking on an 8 day old male being circumcised and no verse commanding an adult male to be circumcised, the "sign" of the everlasting covenant is the Sabbath.

The Jews were the direct descendants of Abraham, Jesus was circumcised and so was Paul. Abraham was commanded by God to circumcise his offspring.

Genesis 17
12 And every male among you who is eight days old shall be circumcised throughout your generations, a servant who is born in the house or who is bought with money from any foreigner, who is not of your descendants.
13 A servant who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My Covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

This is an everlasting covenant, Ken. Do you deny that God established an everlasting covenant with Abrahamand his descendants. If the Sabbath is an everlasting sign, then so is the circumcision in the flesh. You can't have
your cake and eat it to. You are caught in between a rock and a hard place on this point, Ken.

Genesis 17
14 But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.

This why Jesus and Paul were circumcised, all descendants of Abraham were commanded to be circumcised. This the eternal covenant God made with Abraham and his descendants.

I am not a descendant of Abraham, therefore God has not commanded the Gentiles to be physically circumcised. Alas, the Gentile nations were never commanded to honor the Sabbath either.

You have been taught that God was speaking directly to you at Mt Sinai.

Go was speaking to the nation of Israel at Mt Sinai, the Jews are the direct
descendants of Abraham. Therefore they are circumcised and they obey
the Sabbath.

 

[klutedavid]

Hey, thanks.



The Kingdom will be on earth, Messiah will reign from David's throne as prophesied. The meek inherit the earth, not heaven... heaven was not made for man. With that question answered, you are changing the subject by focusing on the idiomatic references to Jews and non-Jews (circumcision and uncircumcision) and while a marker of the covenant, I think you have missed some important facts. Aside from Torah speaking on an 8 day old male being circumcised and no verse commanding an adult male to be circumcised, the "sign" of the everlasting covenant is the Sabbath.

Exodus 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that you may know that I am the LORD your God.

But, this isn't a discussion on the details which you seem to want to focus on which generally suggests a person can't address the question and has to deflect. So, I have answered your question, please answer mine...

The covenant to which you see yourself as part (Hebrews 8:8-11) is specifically for Judah and Israel. There is no mention, at all... anywhere in connection to the new covenant with anyone but Judah and Israel. Since you believe yourself to be a gentile (a pagan, heathen, etc.).... please show me a verse from the bible that states the covenant is made with gentiles or pagans. Thanks.

Hello Ken.

Still going, your post was complicated.

Exodus 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that you may know that I am the LORD your God.

There is a difference between the earthly, physical kingdom of Israel, including the physical Sabbath day. And the heavenly kingdom that Christ rules. The old nation of Israel had an earthly king, this was a dull reflection of the heavenly kingdom. The heavenly kingdom has at its center the throne on which Christ sits.

The nation of Israel had an earthly temple, Christ is the heavenly temple. The old nation of Israel pursued a law of righteousness, we have the perfect righteousness of Christ. Old things have passed, all is new.

You are seated with Christ in the heavenly kingdom, already saved, and sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2
6 And raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Ken, you are a new creation, a new creature in God's eyes. Your already sitting in the heavenly places, God has already done this for you. This is the work of God and we marvel and thank God for this.

2 Corinthians 5
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

All is new, for us the present earth and all it contains has passed. We have an eternal rest, an eternal Sabbath in Christ. The Christ is the sole focus of all our attention now. Old things have passed away and especially the Old Covenant that God established with the nation of Israel.

The covenant to which you see yourself as part (Hebrews 8:8-11) is specifically for Judah and Israel. There is no mention, at all... anywhere in connection to the new covenant with anyone but Judah and Israel. Since you believe yourself to be a gentile (a pagan, heathen, etc.).... please show me a verse from the bible that states the covenant is made with gentiles or pagans. Thanks

A solid statement by you, and a very good question, Ken.

I don't believe I am a Gentile, I am a Gentile, fact.

The New Covenant mentioned in the text (Hebrews 8:8-11) replaced the Old Covenant. I am not a member of the Old Covenant or even the New Covenant.

The God of the Gentiles never made any covenant with the Gentiles, we were never the covenant people. So where do the Gentiles look for their salvation?

Romans 3
29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also.

Genesis 12
3 And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.

Psalm 22
All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations will worship before You.

Isaiah 49
6 I will also make You a light of the nations so that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth.

Isaiah 60
3 Nations will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising.

Acts 14
27 When they had arrived and gathered the church together, they began to report all things that God had done with them and how He had opened a door of faith to the Gentiles.

Acts 15
7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe."

Acts 28
28Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will also listen.

1 Peter 2
12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

We Gentiles have been grafted into Christ.