To tithe, or not to tithe. That is the question!

[New_Wineskin]

Consider this. Abraham gave to a wealthy king who did not really need any more wealth. Yet the scripture considered it to be legitimate scriptural tithing that was fit to be a model and type of tithing to Jesus, the high priest. Abraham received a blessing for it too. Your premise only sounds good if people downgrade the church into some man made thing. God established this " organization " which you are speaking of.

Your premise only sounds good if people forget that their "churches" have nothing to do with being Christian but being exclusive clubs that do not recognize each others' input in their own groups and that their groups have no say into others . To say that I attack the Church is saying that you consider denominationalism as "God established" . Why worship denominationalism in this way while claiming a blessing for supporting its very existence ?

Your saying that what Abraham did is a Scriptural model is saying that even today it is good to masacre and plunder and then give a mere one tenth what was taken to ... "who" ? Where have you seen *anyone* meeting the criteria of Melchizedek ? And , where was this building that he built for this "tithe" that you claim to be the model for the current day and age ?

And ... where was it mentioned in this model of Abraham that he did so as a command for obtaining salvation ?

 

[New_Wineskin]

Hebrews 7 mentions Abraham as an example of legitimate tithing which means that tithing is not just under the law. It is something we can choose to do anytime. Scripture is silent upon whether Abraham tithed all of the time.

You neither discuss this as something of faith *or* of something done is chosen . You speak of doingit under written code - not of faith - and , done because one must - not by choice .

But it must have had an impact upon his grandson , Jacob. Otherwise Jacob would not randomly vow to tithe to God. Jacob saw it as something which would please God.

Really ? Did you actually read that passage of the Scriptures lately ? It had nothing to do with what Abraham did . Jacob was making a deal - a bad deal for the Lord . It wasn't even done by faith . He vows *if* the Lord takes good care of him on the journey , he will give the Lord back one tenth of what is given to him . It would make the Lord a bad steward to agree with such a deal . "Oh boy ... you mean that if I give you all you need and then some , you will generously give me back one tenth of what I gave you in the first place ??!! What a deal !!" The Lord did not take care of Jacob because of Jacob's oath to give a little back to the Lord . The Lord took care of Jacob because of His own oath made to Abraham .

 

[New_Wineskin]

I do not feel obligated to tithe.

So , it is ok for you . Yet , you say that my saying that attacks "the church" .

 

[Yitzchak]

Your premise only sounds good if people forget that their "churches" have nothing to do with being Christian but being exclusive clubs that do not recognize each others' input in their own groups and that their groups have no say into others . To say that I attack the Church is saying that you consider denominationalism as "God established" . Why worship denominationalism in this way while claiming a blessing for supporting its very existence ?

The church did not begin in the New Testament. The church is seen in the Old Testament , as well. Israel did not cease to be God's people based upon the structure of the nation. They were God's people under Moses , under the judges and under a king. Even when the kingdom divided , they were still God's people.

The New Testament church was established by God , not man. Regardless of any backsliding , it is still the church. The Structure of the church is God ordained. The scripture speaks of Church structure and authority. There were Apostles , appointed elders ,deacons , bishops , pastors , teachers , evangelists , prophets , etc. There was money given and handled by the leaders of the church. You speak as though , people just dreamed all this up. The fact is that scripture supports organized religion. Most of the New Testament is written to community and not to individuals. It is written to organized churches with a leadership structure.

I am not sure how you get denominationalism out of that or why you think that anyone is worshiping it ??

Your saying that what Abraham did is a Scriptural model is saying that even today it is good to masacre and plunder and then give a mere one tenth what was taken to ... "who" ? Where have you seen *anyone* meeting the criteria of Melchizedek ? And , where was this building that he built for this "tithe" that you claim to be the model for the current day and age ?

And ... where was it mentioned in this model of Abraham that he did so as a command for obtaining salvation ?

See my other post about using common sense when extracting lessons from a passage. Saying that Abraham is our example does not suggest that we need to move to Israel and change our name to Abraham and then marry a woman who is named Sarai and change her name to Sarah , etc ,etc. We extract principles which we can follow. In the case of the Abraham story we get some help with that since there are a whole bunch of other scriptures which speak to us about Abraham and what we should learn from his example.

In answer to your question about Abraham doing those things for salvation , it is not there because he did not do those things for salvation. What Abraham did was the works of faith that he did because he was saved. Abraham is the model for us in his righteousness by faith. But the model is not merely some theoretical faith , but a practical faith that is lived out.

In answer to your question about Melchizedek , he was a type of Christ. Which means that we pay our tithes to Jesus , our high priest.

This whole supposed problem with finding someone to receive my tithe is a false dilemma. First of all , we tithe to Jesus . His church is his body and his representative upon the earth. Second of all , every Christian is a priest and by definition ,a Christian is a representative of Christ upon the earth. So no matter how we look at it , there are millions of options of people we can tithe to.

 

[Yitzchak]

You neither discuss this as something of faith *or* of something done is chosen . You speak of doingit under written code - not of faith - and , done because one must - not by choice .

I am not 100% sure what you mean here. Hopefully my answer will clarify things.

Under the law , one was required to tithe.

When not under the law , if one makes a vow to do so , then one is required to keep their vow.

Also if not under the law , one is required to tithe if their conscience tells them to do so. To act against my conscience or against the leading of the Holy Spirit would be sin.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

We should each be fully persuaded in our own mind concerning the issue of tithing. We should follow our conscience on the issue.

I have heard people say that they think they should tithe but do not because money is tight. That , in my opinion , is sin and not acting in faith.






[/QUOTE] Really ? Did you actually read that passage of the Scriptures lately ? It had nothing to do with what Abraham did . Jacob was making a deal - a bad deal for the Lord . It wasn't even done by faith . He vows *if* the Lord takes good care of him on the journey , he will give the Lord back one tenth of what is given to him . It would make the Lord a bad steward to agree with such a deal . "Oh boy ... you mean that if I give you all you need and then some , you will generously give me back one tenth of what I gave you in the first place ??!! What a deal !!" The Lord did not take care of Jacob because of Jacob's oath to give a little back to the Lord . The Lord took care of Jacob because of His own oath made to Abraham .[/QUOTE]

Yes. I did re-read that passage recently. I posted about it earlier in this thread. I mentioned that the word "if' is a bad translation in the King James. The Hebrew word there can be translated several ways and it is based upon the context. The King James translators made an assumption which changes the meaning. The Hebrew word "im" can just as easily be translated as surely or when and is translated that way in 54 other places in the Bible.

Gen 28:20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,
Gen 28:21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:
Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

The Young's literal translation of the Hebrew translates the passage this way. Notice the word if is not there.

Gen 28:20 And Jacob voweth a vow, saying, `Seeing God is with me, and hath kept me in this way which I am going, and hath given to me bread to eat, and a garment to put on--
Gen 28:21 when I have turned back in peace unto the house of my father, and Jehovah hath become my God,
Gen 28:22 then this stone which I have made a standing pillar is a house of God, and all that Thou dost give to me--tithing I tithe to Thee.'

But even besides all of that. Whether you believe Jacob was making a vow as one of those "if you do this , I will do this " things or if you believe like em that Jacob was making a vow as an act of faith in response to what God had already done for him ,

Either way , the main point that I was making in my post was that Jacob did not pull the concept of tithing out of thin air. Not only that , Jacob vowed to do something that he thought would please God.

It is like the people who do lent. Do you ever hear people vowing to give something up for lent ? No one says that they will give up canned green beans for lent or some silly thing. they find an item which is meaningful. In the context, Jacob was offering something of value. not some meaningless sacrifice. Jacob found tithing to be a meaningful offering.

No matter which view you take , Jacob was making a vow that he believed would be pleasing to God.

Connect that to the fact that Jacob is the Grandson of Abraham and was around 15 years old when Abraham died. Where did Jacob learn about God and the ways of God ? From Isaac and from Abraham.

Abraham knew about the concept of tithing and tithed to Melchizedek and received a blessing from Melchizedek. His grandson , Jacob chooses to offer tithing as an offering to the Lord.


If you want to believe that there is no connection , go ahead. But I am fully convinced that there is a connection.

 

[Yitzchak]

So , it is ok for you . Yet , you say that my saying that attacks "the church" .

I did not say that your saying that you do not tithe attacks the church. You should follow your conscience in the matter and do what you do in faith as unto the Lord.

I did respond to a post that suggested tithing is a side issue. I disagreed. I think whether or not members tithe , it dramatically effects the budget of the church. The sad reality is that the majority of people who say that they do not believe in tithing give less than 2% of their income to the church. once in a while , there is an exception that gives more than 10% but does not believe in a tithe. but almost always , it is far less than 10%. that is not sentiment , it is statistics.

 

[mjere]

Sorry I haven't taken the time to go through the entire thread. So if this was already stated, so be it...

I happen to believe a person living under the tithe is short changing God.

Sacrifice of first fruits started with Cain and Abel, and Abel went beyond the tithe and contributed the fat of his sheep as well.

Abraham went beyond the tithe as well, and worked as a principle to let God prosper him and was happy to prosper others.

Jacob is the one who made a covenant with God to do it on the condition that God stick with him until He fulfilled His promise.(Old Testament didn't have a covenant that God would stick with them through thick and thin.)

And the Law dictated much more than just a tithe. There were offerings and sacrifices that represented their covenant with God and dependency that some have calculated to be a little more than 25%.

The tithe was a minimum in the Old Testament. But the New Testament not only has mercy extended towards believers, but the blessing already rests on them, and a promise that God will stick with them through thick and thin.

The New Testament goes back to the lifestyle of Abraham which doesn't produce the wealth, nor is it responsible for keeping it. You are blessed and are therefore a blessing. You're merely a steward of what God has given you, and therefore you wouldn't care if God led you to give 100% because it's not yours anyway, and there's more where that came from. And there were times when Abraham gave more than 10% to people.

BUt the tithe doesn't leave room to bless others, because it's dictated by law, and like Cain, many feel responsible for bringing forth their finances, and therefore they can't see as anything other than a debt or obligation. Some people with a zeal and love for God can do it through gritted teeth, or begin to see it as a tax, but very few will be able to hear from the Lord and if asked to give more, give 30%-50%, could do it. Blasphemy!

 

[New_Wineskin]

I did not say that your saying that you do not tithe attacks the church. You should follow your conscience in the matter and do what you do in faith as unto the Lord.

I did respond to a post that suggested tithing is a side issue. I disagreed. I think whether or not members tithe , it dramatically effects the budget of the church. The sad reality is that the majority of people who say that they do not believe in tithing give less than 2% of their income to the church. once in a while , there is an exception that gives more than 10% but does not believe in a tithe. but almost always , it is far less than 10%. that is not sentiment , it is statistics.

The tithe and a club's budget are completely seperate issues .

 

[Source Scripture]

I am not 100% sure what you mean here. Hopefully my answer will clarify things.

Under the law , one was required to tithe.

When not under the law , if one makes a vow to do so , then one is required to keep their vow.

Also if not under the law , one is required to tithe if their conscience tells them to do so. To act against my conscience or against the leading of the Holy Spirit would be sin.





We should each be fully persuaded in our own mind concerning the issue of tithing. We should follow our conscience on the issue.

I have heard people say that they think they should tithe but do not because money is tight. That , in my opinion , is sin and not acting in faith.

Really ? Did you actually read that passage of the Scriptures lately ? It had nothing to do with what Abraham did . Jacob was making a deal - a bad deal for the Lord . It wasn't even done by faith . He vows *if* the Lord takes good care of him on the journey , he will give the Lord back one tenth of what is given to him . It would make the Lord a bad steward to agree with such a deal . "Oh boy ... you mean that if I give you all you need and then some , you will generously give me back one tenth of what I gave you in the first place ??!! What a deal !!" The Lord did not take care of Jacob because of Jacob's oath to give a little back to the Lord . The Lord took care of Jacob because of His own oath made to Abraham .[/quote]

Yes. I did re-read that passage recently. I posted about it earlier in this thread. I mentioned that the word "if' is a bad translation in the King James. The Hebrew word there can be translated several ways and it is based upon the context. The King James translators made an assumption which changes the meaning. The Hebrew word "im" can just as easily be translated as surely or when and is translated that way in 54 other places in the Bible.



The Young's literal translation of the Hebrew translates the passage this way. Notice the word if is not there.




But even besides all of that. Whether you believe Jacob was making a vow as one of those "if you do this , I will do this " things or if you believe like em that Jacob was making a vow as an act of faith in response to what God had already done for him ,

Either way , the main point that I was making in my post was that Jacob did not pull the concept of tithing out of thin air. Not only that , Jacob vowed to do something that he thought would please God.

It is like the people who do lent. Do you ever hear people vowing to give something up for lent ? No one says that they will give up canned green beans for lent or some silly thing. they find an item which is meaningful. In the context, Jacob was offering something of value. not some meaningless sacrifice. Jacob found tithing to be a meaningful offering.

No matter which view you take , Jacob was making a vow that he believed would be pleasing to God.

Connect that to the fact that Jacob is the Grandson of Abraham and was around 15 years old when Abraham died. Where did Jacob learn about God and the ways of God ? From Isaac and from Abraham.

Abraham knew about the concept of tithing and tithed to Melchizedek and received a blessing from Melchizedek. His grandson , Jacob chooses to offer tithing as an offering to the Lord.


If you want to believe that there is no connection , go ahead. But I am fully convinced that there is a connection.[/quote]
Jacob might not have offered the tithing deal because of Abraham, he could have been going by the custom of the other kings in his day, we don't know, and we should not use conjecture or wish, to support a doctrine, we must just go by the text. Look at it this way, did Abraham offer a deal to get return? No, so that could be a hint that Jacob acted independantly from Abraham on the tithe issue. It's not even the same condition. Source Scripture.

 

[New_Wineskin]

edited - Going in circles .

 

[Source Scripture]

For some reason that did not post properly in the above post to Yitzchak, it fused everything togehter, but this is what I said, thanks.


Jacob might not have offered the tithing deal because of Abraham, he could have been going by the custom of the other kings in his day, we don't know, and we should not use conjecture or wish, to support a doctrine, we must just go by the text. Look at it this way, did Abraham offer a deal to get return? No, so that could be a hint that Jacob acted independantly from Abraham on the tithe issue. It's not even the same condition. Source Scripture.

 

[New_Wineskin]

edited - going in circles

 

[New_Wineskin]

edited - going in circles

 

[K2K]

Abraham did not give to the church, he gave to a preist!!

Neither does our tithe go to the church, it goes to a priest!!

Our priest is the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now the church belongs to the Lord, so it is of no surprise if He wants money given to the church, but that doesn't mean that our tithe is due the church!! It is still due our priest and Lord Jesus Christ.

Now Jesus Christ has a name, and His name is called the Word of God. He is called that because He has been given the words of God. And the Holy Spirit takes from what is His (the Word of God) and gives them to us. The Holy Spirit does not speak on His own, but what He hears He speaks, and the Spirit hears the Word of God and gives them to us, personally.

So we ask our Lord Jesus Christ where He would like what is due Him to go!!!

The person not asking our Lord Jesus Christ is living by the Law not every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Of course if you are unwilling to hear what the Spirit has to say to the church, like those people that Moses brought to the foot of the mountain of God who said "Let not God talk to us" then God has no choice but to place you under the Law, instead of under the Lord Jesus Christ who talks to us through the Spirit of God.

A person placed under the Law, because the don't want to listen to the voice of the Lord, says "Your must pay a 10% tithe to the church" because they simply don't listen to God. That is why they are under the Law in the first place. A person place under the Lord Jesus Christ who talks to us via the Spirit of God, says listen to the Lord and give the money due Him where He tells you to.

And now what is really due the Lord Jesus Christ. All things are His!! So we do not owe Him 10%, but everything. Abraham owed God everything. That is why Abraham packed up everything and move where God told Him. Still, Abraham gave 10% to the priest when God asked Him to, but not every Sunday - right?

If who present the tithe as a Law, it is becaues you are under the Law. If you are telling people to listen to the Lord Jesus Christ and do what He says, it is because you are trying to live that way.

I try to listen to the Lord. I don't always do that, because I busy and for other reasons too. But listening to the Lord and doing what He says is the way I want to live my life, and so He talks to me and I hear His voice. And so I tell others to try to do the same.

And if they truly do believe in Him, our Lord Jesus Christ, they too will talk to Him and it will show up in their message. They will tell other people to give according to what He says. And if you feel otherwise, talk to Him about that too.

And if they truly do believe that He is who the Scriptures say He is, He is going to take care of His church!! He makes sure they have the money they need. So why are they saying 'Give me more, Give me more', isn't it because they don't truly believe in Him.

Indeed, the riches and most prosperous church in my neighborhood got that way by faith. That is they listen to the Lord, and He told them not to collect tithes, but instead just put out boxes in which people could give, and God filled it up and they grew very big. Still some there (and even some that knew what God told them and saw the results) get blown around in the wind and occasionally start preaching the Law instead of the Lord.

John the Babtist was call the greatest of men by the Lord, and he too blew around in the wind. So think -- are you going to live by the Law, or by following the Lord. Following the Lord will cost you more at this point!! By trying to follow the Law, you only have to give 10% now, but it will cost you all later. By following the Lord, you may not have to give 10% this Sunday (depending on what He says), but it will cost you everything now! Yet you get life and that more abundantly now and later.

Freinds - seek the Lord and do what He says. And He is always with you, so you can always hear from Him. Do you believe that? Then why are you giving anything thing without talking to Him firsts? Is it because you are trying to live by rules instead of by relationship?

Jn 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me

Is 30:21 Your ears will hear a word behind you, "This is the way, walk in it" whenever you turn to the right or to the left

 

[JimB]

We long ago gave up moving the decimal point one-place to the left and feeling like we had earned God’s blessing. Instead, we have responded with what we hope is a generous heart to as many needs, church and otherwise, as we could and have discovered that Christian generosity exceeds duty-giving (the tithe) by a whopping amount. Anyhow, a biblical (i.e., Jewish) tithe is more like 23% than 10% since there were three tithes in Israel—two annual ones (one to the Levites and priesthood and another for the Temple), and an every-third-year one (for the poor), and since there is no Temple or Levitical priesthood wouldn't that exempt us from the first two? Just sayin’.

 

[K2K]

If our thinking is in-line with the rules of God instead of in-line with relationship with God, what should that tell us about ourselves?

It's not that the rules are wrong, and doesn't knowing the rules help us understanding when we might be influenced by evil instead of good?

But if we are constantly trying to live by the rules instead of living through a relationship with our Lord, who is with us, then aren't we by diffinition trying to live by the Law instead of the Lord. Are we zealous for the Law or for the Lord?

This morning He asked me to go for a walk with Him. So I walked around the block talking with Him and thinking about Him. And He went over with me, what was on my heart. What I saw was that He was on my heart. He was what I thought about. And He pointed out that some people always have the Law on there heart, not Him. What is on your heart comes our your mouth, He pointed out.

He teaches the Law, but if He is teaching the Law, are we pointing people to the Law or to Him? Teaching a subject, is not the same thing as preaching. What we preach is our god (God).

So the different rules and traditions of the Israelites is taught, but we don't give according to them, we give according to what our Lord says. And doing that fulfills the Law. And yes, it will probably be more than 10% and seem more like 23%. What it actually is though is everything, because calling Him Lord and actually following Him as Lord, means that you have given Him all. And what do you think - that He needs and wants your money, or your attention?

 

[Frogster]

I did not say that your saying that you do not tithe attacks the church. You should follow your conscience in the matter and do what you do in faith as unto the Lord.

I did respond to a post that suggested tithing is a side issue. I disagreed. I think whether or not members tithe , it dramatically effects the budget of the church. The sad reality is that the majority of people who say that they do not believe in tithing give less than 2% of their income to the church. once in a while , there is an exception that gives more than 10% but does not believe in a tithe. but almost always , it is far less than 10%. that is not sentiment , it is statistics.

if the church budget is low, maybe the pastoral team needs to go out and earn supplemental income with a nice day job. Maybe the 2% is what they felt to give in their own hearts under grace. Can they give according to what they as adults feel led to give?

 

[JimB]

if the church budget is low, maybe the pastoral team needs to go out and earn supplemental income with a nice day job.

Nothing wrong with a pastor working an outside job, but a church does get what they pay for.

 

[Frogster]

Nothing wrong with a pastor working an outside job, but a church does get what they pay for.

Yup, they get to see the pastor able to relate to "the little guy".

Paul said in 1 thess 2:6, he did not seek glory by getting money, he knew many, not saying you, were puffed up with getting paid.

Anyway jim, be blessed, frog.

 

[mjere]

If our thinking is in-line with the rules of God instead of in-line with relationship with God, what should that tell us about ourselves?

It's not that the rules are wrong, and doesn't knowing the rules help us understanding when we might be influenced by evil instead of good?

But if we are constantly trying to live by the rules instead of living through a relationship with our Lord, who is with us, then aren't we by diffinition trying to live by the Law instead of the Lord. Are we zealous for the Law or for the Lord?

This morning He asked me to go for a walk with Him. So I walked around the block talking with Him and thinking about Him. And He went over with me, what was on my heart. What I saw was that He was on my heart. He was what I thought about. And He pointed out that some people always have the Law on there heart, not Him. What is on your heart comes our your mouth, He pointed out.

He teaches the Law, but if He is teaching the Law, are we pointing people to the Law or to Him? Teaching a subject, is not the same thing as preaching. What we preach is our god (God).

So the different rules and traditions of the Israelites is taught, but we don't give according to them, we give according to what our Lord says. And doing that fulfills the Law. And yes, it will probably be more than 10% and seem more like 23%. What it actually is though is everything, because calling Him Lord and actually following Him as Lord, means that you have given Him all. And what do you think - that He needs and wants your money, or your attention?

I disagree with the idea of "fulfilling the law" through following the leading of Lord. We only fulfill the law through what Jesus did. We as individuals will always come up short to His standard.

The rules can dictate a standard but they could never "help" you in meeting that standard. Jesus doesn't make the down payment and we keep up with the installments.

I thought you're first question was rather interesting, because regardless of who we think God is, or perceive Him to be, You will only experience and can only experience who you think God is. God is to you, who you think He is. Which you pointed out; but for most people it goes deeper than just tradition and rules.

If you think God is a God who requires sacrifice/service for pacification, that will be your relationship.

If you believe God is temperamental; and under the Old Covenant does things one way, and under the New Covenant does things another way, you're going to always rest on shaky ground.

If you believe God corrects and punishes His children harder than He does other people's children- Satan's- than you will experience a harsh condemning, rules oriented parent, who won't let you slip or slide, because in this life you need to measure up.

God is love, and anyone who has love, has a desire to see that love returned. No one wants someone loving them according to rules. We desire to experience love through free will. Someone living under the law can't give love freely, because they can't receive love freely.

A person who doesn't know how to give could start with a tithe, and say, "Lord I love you and I want to give to you, but I don't know how much to give to you. I know many have given a percentage, and I would like to start there. You've given me so much." But under the Old and New Covenant, 100% of it is God's. 10-25% was what the spiritually dead could understand in the Old Testament.