To tithe, or not to tithe. That is the question!

[Yitzchak]

We long ago gave up moving the decimal point one-place to the left and feeling like we had earned God’s blessing. Instead, we have responded with what we hope is a generous heart to as many needs, church and otherwise, as we could and have discovered that Christian generosity exceeds duty-giving (the tithe) by a whopping amount. Anyhow, a biblical (i.e., Jewish) tithe is more like 23% than 10% since there were three tithes in Israel—two annual ones (one to the Levites and priesthood and another for the Temple), and an every-third-year one (for the poor), and since there is no Temple or Levitical priesthood wouldn't that exempt us from the first two? Just sayin’.

I am not sure what you mean by Christian generosity exceeds duty giving. statistics show that the average church goer only gives 2% of their income to nonprofit organizations.


How Not Talking About Stewardship Affects Giving | Church Development

In Why Catholics Don't Give, Villanova researcher Charles Zech discussed the factors of why the Catholic church gives the lowest percentage of any major denomination (an average of 1.2% of their income compared to 2.2% in mainline protestant churches)

Zech found that Catholics lead the U.S. in the following categories:

No appeals during worship
No phone contact of members
No "every member" visits
No emphasis on proportionate giving; and
No emphasis on the Biblical standard of tithing

The final kicker: Catholics lead the U.S. in the category of churches who never give a stewardship sermon (by a factor of 2:1 over the second place finisher).

Due to the above factors, Catholics give an average of 45% less than other major denominations. As difficult as it may seem, this highlights the importance of talking to your church about giving.

Which , by the way , is a lower percentage than what those outside the church give to charity , on average. Also, the city of Tulsa , Oklahoma gives an average of 21.6 % to charity. it is ranked one of the highest in the nation for giving...

 

[GaryArnold]

I am not sure what you mean by Christian generosity exceeds duty giving. statistics show that the average church goer only gives 2% of their income to nonprofit organizations.

Even though I give NOTHING to nonprofit organizations, I do give around 30% of my income DIRECTLY to God's children in need. THAT, my friend, is what Christian giving is all about. Not giving to organizations where a large amount is used for salaries, buildings, etc. When I give I am not paying to hear a sermon, paying for a seat in an air-conditioned building, paying to receive a printed program, etc. etc.

So that 2% stat doesn't tell the whole story. I have yet to attend any church services where real Christian giving is preached. Instead, they preach tithing and giving TO THE ORGANIZED CORPORATION DOING BUSINESS AS A CHURCH - a business in disguise.

 

[GaryArnold]

Since the stats shows that those outside the church give more to charities than "church goers," what does that tell you about the organized church? What does that say about the teaching that is done in those organized churches?

The stats tell me something is not right with the organized corporation doing business as a church. Just WHY do "church goers" give less than those outside the church? If it is REALLY God's Church people are going to, wouldn't they be generous givers? Does God put it in the hearts of those not attending these organized churches more love and generosity? Think about it for a while.

 

[Yitzchak]

For some reason that did not post properly in the above post to Yitzchak, it fused everything togehter, but this is what I said, thanks.


Jacob might not have offered the tithing deal because of Abraham, he could have been going by the custom of the other kings in his day, we don't know, and we should not use conjecture or wish, to support a doctrine, we must just go by the text. Look at it this way, did Abraham offer a deal to get return? No, so that could be a hint that Jacob acted independantly from Abraham on the tithe issue. It's not even the same condition. Source Scripture.

I agree with not being dogmatic about things that the scripture is silent about. But that sword cuts both ways. Meaning that we should not be dogmatic on either side of the issue. I think you will agree with that.

The fact that kings received tithes is true , and I am sure Jacob was aware of that. But given the fact that Jacob was discipled by Abraham , it seems more likely that the story of Abraham tithing to Melchizedek was discussed with him.

There is random conjecture and then there is a plausible conclusion.

 

[GaryArnold]

Also, the city of Tulsa , Oklahoma gives an average of 21.6 % to charity. it is ranked one of the highest in the nation for giving...

You have misquoted the stats.

Correct stat: Residents of Tulsa, Oklahoma’s 74103 zip code donated an average of 21.6 percent of their discretionary income.

Definition of "discretionary income":
The amount of an individual's income that is left for spending, investing or saving after taxes and personal necessities (such as food, shelter, and clothing) have been paid. Discretionary income includes money spent on luxury items, vacations and non-essential goods and services.

21.6% of discretionary income can be less than 1% of gross income for many people.

 

[Yitzchak]

Abraham did not give to the church, he gave to a preist!!

Neither does our tithe go to the church, it goes to a priest!!

Our priest is the Lord Jesus Christ.

I agree. This is one of the main lessons we receive in Hebrews seven and Genesis 14.

Now the church belongs to the Lord, so it is of no surprise if He wants money given to the church, but that doesn't mean that our tithe is due the church!! It is still due our priest and Lord Jesus Christ.

Again , this is true.

Now Jesus Christ has a name, and His name is called the Word of God. He is called that because He has been given the words of God. And the Holy Spirit takes from what is His (the Word of God) and gives them to us. The Holy Spirit does not speak on His own, but what He hears He speaks, and the Spirit hears the Word of God and gives them to us, personally.

So we ask our Lord Jesus Christ where He would like what is due Him to go!!!

The person not asking our Lord Jesus Christ is living by the Law not every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

While the concept that you are expressing is true. that concept being that we must be led by the Holy Spirit in everything , including giving . While I agree with the concept , I do find your rendition of being led by The Holy Spirit to be quite rigid.

Not every human relationship in our life is a test of our loyalty to God. We start this life by following what our parents tell us. Then there are school teachers , employers , pastors , etc. God actually leads us sometimes by the people he places in our life. We do not always get an angelic visitation to guide us.

And now what is really due the Lord Jesus Christ. All things are His!! So we do not owe Him 10%, but everything. Abraham owed God everything. That is why Abraham packed up everything and move where God told Him. Still, Abraham gave 10% to the priest when God asked Him to, but not every Sunday - right?

This sounds good , but has little practical value. God gives us money to pay our bills , support our families , and even to enjoy life. God gives us the very life that we have but does not call most of us to be martyrs. Our duty is to be thankful to God for what he has given us and to give the amount that God tells us to give. Not 100%.

And if they truly do believe in Him, our Lord Jesus Christ, they too will talk to Him and it will show up in their message. They will tell other people to give according to what He says. And if you feel otherwise, talk to Him about that too.

And if they truly do believe that He is who the Scriptures say He is, He is going to take care of His church!! He makes sure they have the money they need. So why are they saying 'Give me more, Give me more', isn't it because they don't truly believe in Him.

Yes, that is what it means. God is the source , not people. Still it is reasonable to expect people to do the right thing. Just not to lose our peace if they don't.

Freinds - seek the Lord and do what He says. And He is always with you, so you can always hear from Him. Do you believe that? Then why are you giving anything thing without talking to Him firsts? Is it because you are trying to live by rules instead of by relationship?

Your post is a pretty good post, I would say. It inspires us to seek God and hear from in and then act in faith.

Just do not forget that God works through people also. Sometime sit is just us and God , but sometimes god uses people to accomplish his will in our life.

Take the example of a woman who prayed for a baby. God sent her a husband instead of another immaculate conception. We are always to look to God as our source , but we need to accept that God works through people.

 

[Yitzchak]

if the church budget is low, maybe the pastoral team needs to go out and earn supplemental income with a nice day job. Maybe the 2% is what they felt to give in their own hearts under grace. Can they give according to what they as adults feel led to give?

Maybe. On the other hand , maybe a part of leadership is instruction and training. Perhaps the average Christian is not as led of the Holy Spirit as we would hope and needs some instruction to help them. There is a difference between undue pressure and teaching people about the right thing to do.

There are a lot of variables. But in my experience , many Christians have a lot of trouble setting their lives into a proper order when it comes to money in general , including giving. Left to their own devices , many Christians will end up fat , lazy and broke. Natural laws place pressure on people to work so they can pay their bills and buy food. In the absence of pressure , many people to not behave in a noble fashion. The sanctification process involves instruction in righteousness.

But , yes , people are free to give what they feel led to give.

 

[Yitzchak]

You have misquoted the stats.

Correct stat: Residents of Tulsa, Oklahoma’s 74103 zip code donated an average of 21.6 percent of their discretionary income.

Definition of "discretionary income":
The amount of an individual's income that is left for spending, investing or saving after taxes and personal necessities (such as food, shelter, and clothing) have been paid. Discretionary income includes money spent on luxury items, vacations and non-essential goods and services.

21.6% of discretionary income can be less than 1% of gross income for many people.

Thank you.So what is the actual percentage of people in the Tulsa area ?
Saying that it can be less than 1% of their gross income is nice as a general statement , but what is the actual statistic , please ?

 

[Source Scripture]

I agree with not being dogmatic about things that the scripture is silent about. But that sword cuts both ways. Meaning that we should not be dogmatic on either side of the issue. I think you will agree with that.

The fact that kings received tithes is true , and I am sure Jacob was aware of that. But given the fact that Jacob was discipled by Abraham , it seems more likely that the story of Abraham tithing to Melchizedek was discussed with him.

There is random conjecture and then there is a plausible conclusion.

But wouldn't it be rather odd, for Jacob to not realize the significance of that event? Wouldn't he wait also for Melchizedek, did Abraham explain it properly to Jacob? Did Abraham tithe to an ordinary person, why would Jacob imitate just some of the story? Indeed, Jacob may have just been following custom, unless the Melchizedek event was commonplace? Thanks, Source Scripture.

 

[Source Scripture]

Maybe. On the other hand , maybe a part of leadership is instruction and training. Perhaps the average Christian is not as led of the Holy Spirit as we would hope and needs some instruction to help them. There is a difference between undue pressure and teaching people about the right thing to do.

There are a lot of variables. But in my experience , many Christians have a lot of trouble setting their lives into a proper order when it comes to money in general , including giving. Left to their own devices , many Christians will end up fat , lazy and broke. Natural laws place pressure on people to work so they can pay their bills and buy food. In the absence of pressure , many people to not behave in a noble fashion. The sanctification process involves instruction in righteousness.

But , yes , people are free to give what they feel led to give.

Interesting wordage, fat lazy and broke, hmmmm.

 

[GaryArnold]

Thank you.So what is the actual percentage of people in the Tulsa area ?
Saying that it can be less than 1% of their gross income is nice as a general statement , but what is the actual statistic , please ?

I gave the only stat I could find. I didn't add to it, subtract from it, or change it in any way. But since it was on discretionary income, that is after taxes and living expenses. The church always give giving stats related to gross income, not discretionary income. And yet the so-called "tithing principles" given in the scriptures was always tithing from the NET, not the gross. Abram tithed from the NET spoils. The Israelites tithed from the NET crops and animals, not the gross.

 

[Yitzchak]

But wouldn't it be rather odd, for Jacob to not realize the significance of that event? Wouldn't he wait also for Melchizedek, did Abraham explain it properly to Jacob? Did Abraham tithe to an ordinary person, why would Jacob imitate just some of the story? Indeed, Jacob may have just been following custom, unless the Melchizedek event was commonplace? Thanks, Source Scripture.

I think that it is possible that Abraham tithed to Melchizedek because he saw him as both king and priest. Jesus is all three , prophet , priest and king. So tithing to a king definitely seems to factor in.

The scripture is silent as to who Jacob tithed to. But it seems from the rest of the scripture , that it would have had to have been either a priest or a king to receive a tithe.

It is an interesting study to look at the family lines listed in scripture. Eber who is found between Noah and Abraham lived long enough to be alive when Abraham was. In Hebrew , the name Eber means Hebrew. I read one scholar who believes Melchizedek was Job from the book of Job. I have my doubts , but it is interesting to look at who was alive when. Their lives overlapped.

 

[Yitzchak]

Interesting wordage, fat lazy and broke, hmmmm.

I choose that wordage , on purpose. It is a little like adding an exclamation mark. I know it was borderline rude , but in context , it was not meant as an insult to anyone. I could use a euphemism like coach potato instead , but I think it loses something.

The facts bear out what I said , by the way. Look up the amount of debt and bankruptcies and the obesity rate among American Christians. Remember , the context was being led of the Spirit. I doubt that the Holy Spirit is leading people into those problems.

The ironic thing is that American Christians can be like junior high school kids. They are all being different in the same way and they are all being independent as a part of a group. There is not really a whole lot of independent thought. In their zeal to cast off authority , they exchange it for leaders who are less trustworthy than the ones they cast off. but I think that is a subject for another thread. I am old enough to remember what came first and how this " church" outside of church movement started. The anti establishment crowd seldom ends up looking very clever in the end.

I believe that most of the time , we get the Government that we deserve.It may take a while , but it tends to go that way. That is true in politics and in the Church Government. The church is Governed by people. Leaving the Church after we messed it up with our sinful and selfish ways would be a little like Americans running things into the ground and then running to Canada to have a go at it here. these people who separate from the church are a big part of the problem that they are running from. In my opinion , they are the biggest part.

 

[Yitzchak]

I gave the only stat I could find. I didn't add to it, subtract from it, or change it in any way. But since it was on discretionary income, that is after taxes and living expenses. The church always give giving stats related to gross income, not discretionary income. And yet the so-called "tithing principles" given in the scriptures was always tithing from the NET, not the gross. Abram tithed from the NET spoils. The Israelites tithed from the NET crops and animals, not the gross.

If a person is going to tithe , I certainly agree with tithing the net. I used to manage a business that took in 600,000 a year ( rounded off , of course ). The net profit was around 60,000. A tithe on the gross means 100% of what they were really making.

 

[Frogster]

If a person is going to tithe , I certainly agree with tithing the net. I used to manage a business that took in 600,000 a year ( rounded off , of course ). The net profit was around 60,000. A tithe on the gross means 100% of what they were really making.

if u look at the tithing argument in general, you will see a pattern that the blame, or guilt, or fault is always at the sheep, and not the tithe collectors..

go ahead, prove me wrong, the people are always either cheap, selfish, fat, lazy, or somehow at fault, but no one ever points to the extractors, do they?

your only hope so far, with all due respect, is to press the gen 14 account, whilch as u have been shown, was once, and was the spoils of a slaughter...

 

[Yitzchak]

if u look at the tithing argument in general, you will see a pattern that the blame, or guilt, or fault is always at the sheep, and not the tithe collectors..

go ahead, prove me wrong, the people are always either cheap, selfish, fat, lazy, or somehow at fault, but no one ever points to the extractors, do they?

your only hope so far, with all due respect, is to press the gen 14 account, whilch as u have been shown, was once, and was the spoils of a slaughter...

I don't tithe , so it is no concern to me. But I still insist that Christians can tithe in faith and receive a blessing for it. I also think that being anti tithing is not a biblical stance. Tithing is not an evil conspiracy , as some present it. Also , tithing is not something that church leaders made up. It is found in the Bible. The issue should be settled by a calm look at the scriptures. Thankfully I attend a church that believes in the individual liberty of conscience on these types of issues. It sure seems odd to me to see people with their funny issues and weird extreme stories of what so and so church leader did to them or someone they knew.

Some of the reactionary position reminds me of the anti charismatics who make fun of tongues and think tongues are all made up by Pentecostals. They forget that the Bible is where the concept of tongues came from first. When we cross the line into making fun of what God did , we are on dangerous ground. I have yet to see a single scripture that speaks of tongues as fake or evil. The whole anti tongues movement is based upon making fun and poking holes in what people who speak in tongues do. They do not ahve a single verse which warns against tongues.

I have yet to see one scripture verse which warns Christians against the dangers of tithing. Hebrews 7 would seem like it would have been a good place to bring up the dangers of tithing if such a thing were an issue. I actually think that the burden of the proof is upon those who are anti tithing since the scripture does not have a single negative thing to say about tithing. there is apparently a whole movement that is based solely upon being against tithing and poking holes in what others do.( Not that I am saying that you have personally crossed that line.) Maybe we should require anti tithers to supply an anti tithing verse or two ??

At least in our debates about Judaism in the church , you can show me some verses where Christians are warned of the dangers of Judaisers. We can argue how to interpret them , but they at least exist. One would think that if this tithing issue was such a defining issue for people to turn against the church over , that the scripture would have at least one verse warning about the evils of tithing.

By the way , another issue that the scripture is strangely silent about is warning people against the organized church and church leaders. Maybe I will start a thread about that one ? hmmm.I can't seem to find a single Bible verse which warns Christians to separate from the church because it has a building and some structure.

 

[Frogster]

I don't tithe , so it is no concern to me. But I still insist that Christians can tithe in faith and receive a blessing for it. I also think that being anti tithing is not a biblical stance. Tithing is not an evil conspiracy , as some present it. Also , tithing is not something that church leaders made up. It is found in the Bible. The issue should be settled by a calm look at the scriptures. Thankfully I attend a church that believes in the individual liberty of conscience on these types of issues. It sure seems odd to me to see people with their funny issues and weird extreme stories of what so and so church leader did to them or someone they knew.

Some of the reactionary position reminds me of the anti charismatics who make fun of tongues and think tongues are all made up by Pentecostals. They forget that the Bible is where the concept of tongues came from first. When we cross the line into making fun of what God did , we are on dangerous ground. I have yet to see a single scripture that speaks of tongues as fake or evil. The whole anti tongues movement is based upon making fun and poking holes in what people who speak in tongues do. They do not ahve a single verse which warns against tongues.

I have yet to see one scripture verse which warns Christians against the dangers of tithing. Hebrews 7 would seem like it would have been a good place to bring up the dangers of tithing if such a thing were an issue. I actually think that the burden of the proof is upon those who are anti tithing since the scripture does not have a single negative thing to say about tithing. there is apparently a whole movement that is based solely upon being against tithing and poking holes in what others do.( Not that I am saying that you have personally crossed that line.) Maybe we should require anti tithers to supply an anti tithing verse or two ??

At least in our debates about Judaism in the church , you can show me some verses where Christians are warned of the dangers of Judaisers. We can argue how to interpret them , but they at least exist. One would think that if this tithing issue was such a defining issue for people to turn against the church over , that the scripture would have at least one verse warning about the evils of tithing.

By the way , another issue that the scripture is strangely silent about is warning people against the organized church and church leaders. Maybe I will start a thread about that one ? hmmm.I can't seem to find a single Bible verse which warns Christians to separate from the church because it has a building and some structure.

well..all i said was a simple point, the teachers never get faulted.

and hebrews 7 had a simple turth, in the reality of those who read the letter, tithing was over for them, because the temple was going down, and they were being warned big time, fom above in 12;25, 3:7, and 10;15. They were in no way being given new instructions about giving, were they?


Did jesus tithe?

 

[K2K]

I

Not every human relationship in our life is a test of our loyalty to God. We start this life by following what our parents tell us. Then there are school teachers , employers , pastors , etc. God actually leads us sometimes by the people he places in our life. We do not always get an angelic visitation to guide us.

The Lord may use lots of things to teach us, but He leads us with His voice!!

Jn 10:3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

Jn 10:4 When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

Jn 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

So if He is having to lead someone by other people, it's because they are not listening to Him like they should!! People turn back to trying to live by the Law instead of their relationship with the Lord. Then the Lord uses others to get their attention.

Gal 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law or by hearing with faith?

We see that God did indeed have to use another person (in this case it was Paul) to turn those Christian (the Galations) back from trying to follow the Law to hearing Him with faith.

So someone says that we are blessed because we give 10% according to the Law, but the Scriptures explain that we are blessed because our faith!

Gal 3:8 The Scriptures foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel fefore hand to Abraham, saying "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU".

Gal 3:9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer

Abraham was before the Law handed down by Moses, and Christ return us to a position of being able to lead a life of hearng the Lord by faith. So let us do just that!!

Abraham gave to a priest, but not a tithe that is a rule or law, but because He heard from the Lord and obeyed. So if someone says that we must give a 10 % tithe, how is it they don't understand that they are giving based upon a rule and not based upon faith?

Faith is a belief that God is with you. If then with you, then you can asked Him and hear from Him. And if all things are being placed at His feet, then does that not include your money? If then all your money is placed at His feet, then don't you have a requirement to talk to Him concerning where He would like His money to go? Of course we do, but because we don't believe (have the faith that He is indeed with us) we make us excusses for not talking to Him.

We become just like His people that Moses lead into the desert who said, "Let not God talk to us". They prefered to live by rules handed down by Moses instead of listening to the Lord. We get like that but don't want to admit it even to ourselves.

Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

The Spirit speaks what He is told, and if we listen we are lead by Christ through the Spirit. Then of course I am not subject to any rule other than obedience to what I am told by the Spirit. And of course He tells us to love one another and that sometimes means giving, but it doesn't mean giving 10% as a point of Law, but might mean giving 10% because He personally tells you. And because He tells you, He might change the location that He wants it given and the amount at anytime. So it is not according to the Law that we given, but according to the Spirit and the instructions we get from His voice spoken to us.

He once told me to go to the Wild Animal park in San Diego and leave money there, explaining that the world and all that is in it belongs to Him. So then, all your money belongs to Him and not just 10%, so you should start acting that way!!

Ps 89:11 The heavens are Yours, and earth also is Yours. The world and all it contains, You have founded them.

So people - it is not 10% that belongs to the Lord, but all things, which includes all your money. So better ask Him where He wants it going, and that includes what groceries you buy, what gas station you go to, and so on. Jesus did and even said only what the Father told Him, so how did Jesus give? Was it according to the Law of tithing or according to what the Father told him?

Remember that rich man that came up to Jesus and asked what he needed to do to get to heaven? Did Jesus tell him to give 10% and come follow Him, or did Jesus tell him to give it all away and come follow Him? Note: I am not telling you to give it all away, but I am telling you to listen to the Lord and do what He says. As for me, He had me spend all I had on a Christian bookstore, and had me give it to a church. So just FYI, it you do talk to the Lord, there is a pretty good change that He will tell you to give it all away and follow Him.

So if you want to tell me how He leads you by "teachers , employers , pastors", or even by "angelic visitation", fine. He leads me by His voice, just as mentioned in the Scriptures. So I preach Jesus Christ, as in hearing Him with faith.

 

[Yitzchak]

Did jesus tithe?

I am not sure. The temple was standing then and Jesus lived under the law. But Jesus also bucked the system regrading man made traditions about the sabbath. Since there are no recorded confrontations between Jesus and the pharisees over the issue of tithing, I would conclude that Jesus either tithed or the Pharisee's rules concerning tithing did not apply to Jesus as a carpenter or as a preacher. It is possible that Jesus did not tithe. It is also possible that he did.

As some have pointed out , the law specifies tithing only certain items and not 100% of all people's income. But the Pharisees often took things farther than the actual instructions which God gave.

 

[Frogster]

I am not sure. The temple was standing then and Jesus lived under the law. But Jesus also bucked the system regrading man made traditions about the sabbath. Since there are no recorded confrontations between Jesus and the pharisees over the issue of tithing, I would conclude that Jesus either tithed or the Pharisee's rules concerning tithing did not apply to Jesus as a carpenter or as a preacher. It is possible that Jesus did not tithe. It is also possible that he did.

As some have pointed out , the law specifies tithing only certain items and not 100% of all people's income. But the Pharisees often took things farther than the actual instructions which God gave.

So did Jesus grow wheat, or an herb or something like that?