yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Too bad MANY DIED ..... they did not continue without sickness....
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Just as Moses lifted up the bronze serpent in the wilderness, and all who looked upon the serpent were healed, so too that anyone who looks upon the Son of Man and believes are saved.
Now I have asked myself the same questions and I believe that it could be possible for a third option. What if both positions are true? I know it sounds strange, but what if God did predestined certain "elect" to be saved. Let's say there are certain individuals who God created for a specific purpose that included salvation. These "elect" don't have the free will to reject God because they are part of God's over arching plan. However, everyone has a path to salvation because " it is his will that none should perish" (2 Peter 3:9). If this is not true then that would either make God a liar who is capable of saving everyone yet choosing not to, or powerless because He is unable to save everyone in spite of His will.exactly...yet no one in the OSAS community seems to be willing to address the issue and contradiction from a God who cannot lie.
I'm not sure I can buy this, but a version of it maybe...look at it this way...let's take Paul as an example. I believe God "predestined" or "elected" Paul for a specific task. A task in which He knew that Paul would need to be a believer to do, right? it was as it were the "good works" that Paul was created for. That does not mean that Paul had no choice, but rather that God created Paul knowing that He would choose and what it would take to convince Him as well.Now I have asked myself the same questions and I believe that it could be possible for a third option. What if both positions are true? I know it sounds strange, but what if God did predestined certain "elect" to be saved. Let's say there are certain individuals who God created for a specific purpose that included salvation. These "elect" don't have the free will to reject God because they are part of God's over arching plan. However, everyone has a path to salvation because " it is his will that none should perish" (2 Peter 3:9). If this is not true then that would either make God a liar who is capable of saving everyone yet choosing not to, or powerless because He is unable to save everyone in spite of His will.
So just because you are not elected to be saved, you have the free will to choose to be saved.
actually, if you actually study predestination in scripture, God predestines some for specific jobs, like Paul since he was already offered as an example and He predestined us to be in His likeness...iow's we are all predestined to be like Christ but we don't all choose to do so. It is what fulfills us or completes us if you will.It's all resolved by accepting that the people who make choices to be saved are the only ones God predestined. I have yet to see an example of God guaranteeing someone in the future will be saved, and he never tells anyone when a person is one of the elect or not.
People have all kinds of trouble with God's foreknowledge of events, and end up drawing false conclusions from that fact. The question is do you have that foreknowledge? If you don't, how does the fact that God does affect you?
we will agree to disagree then as per what I previously laid out after a careful study of predestination in scripture.It's all resolved by accepting that the people who make choices to be saved are the only ones God predestined *to be saved.
Paul's statements that he was predestined were statements made in retrospect. Everything in all creation was predestined in this way.
ah...not sure what you are asking for so that I can accommodate...as I stated, I see two different "predestinations" the one in which God created "good works" for us to do and the one in which we are predestined to be in His image that is to be righteous...which one do you need to me evidence for you?Please cite an example of what you mean.
I already believe both of those, so neither. I guess I just don't know what you were referring to with the above statement.we will agree to disagree then as per what I previously laid out after a careful study of predestination in scripture.
Here is the evidence against OSAS:
Mark 4:16 (Luke 8:13) "And in a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; (they believe for a while) and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.
Galatians 5:4 "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."
John 15:5-6 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
Romans 11:19-23 "You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again."
Hebrews 6:4-6 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.
Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries."
Hebrews 10:38-39 "But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul."
Acts 20:17,28-30 "And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church." ... "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."
1 Timothy 1:18-21 "fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are HYMENAEUS and Alexander"
2 Timothy 2:16-18 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are HYMENAEUS and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some.
1 Timothy 4:1 "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"
1 Timothy 6:20-21 "O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"-which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith."
2 Peter 2:1 "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves."
2 Peter 3:17 "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness"
2 John 8-9 "Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son."
1 Timothy 6:9-10 "But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang."
2 Peter 2:20-22 "For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.""
James 5:19-20 "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins."
Revelation 2:4-5 "'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 'Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of its place-unless you repent."
Revelation 3:5 "'He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels.
Revelation 3:16-17 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked"
Ezekiel 18:24-26 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? "When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die."
The response that I have gotten from some Calvinism were that the Gospels and epistles were written specifically to the elect and not to everyone else.
Notice that James is speaking to the "elect" (brothers and sisters). Yet this passage serves as a warning to those "elect" who "wander from the truth" are at risk of death.
By using his free will to reject God, just like demons did:So what happened to the new nature? What happened to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? What happened to God's promise that he would preserve us and that Christ would keep us from falling?
Why should we throw God's promises out the window just because you don't believe them?
They had a kind of unity with God and an even more holy and good nature before they fell than humans do.But we're talking about the born again, regenerate man, not about demons.
Who is alive today who has a nature that cannot reject God?
Born again believers.
:Your question was:
Answer was:
Because faith is a choice that is built on trust. When someone goes through trials, that faith is tested. Unfortunately, many people don't realize how weak their faith really is until they face hardship. When they do...their faith crumbles and they no longer trust God.
In short...the answer is Yes.
So then the new nature and indwelling of the Holy Spirit are worthless?
I'm sure glad that my salvation is based on Christ's faithfulness and not my faithfulness.
Show me where scripture says that people who do not have faith in God are saved.
Why? Are you attributing that straw man to me?
Calvinism? How does one become regenerated in the first place?
By an unmerited work of the Holy Spirit.
I agree and that is not at all what I was saying.
Clearly you don't agree
Not necessarily. " Faith without works is dead." What are your thoughts on James 2?
James 2 says that works are evidence of salvation, not a means of salvation
How do you know?.
Because the text says so
If they were not His, then they were not His to give over.
That idiotic statement is between you and God The fact remains that they were not saved and He did just that
Here is the evidence against OSAS:
Mark 4:16 (Luke 8:13) "And in a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; (they believe for a while) and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.
Galatians 5:4 "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."
John 15:5-6 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
Romans 11:19-23 "You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again."
Hebrews 6:4-6 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.
Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries."
Hebrews 10:38-39 "But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul."
Acts 20:17,28-30 "And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church." ... "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."
1 Timothy 1:18-21 "fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are HYMENAEUS and Alexander"
2 Timothy 2:16-18 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are HYMENAEUS and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some.
1 Timothy 4:1 "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"
1 Timothy 6:20-21 "O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"-which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith."
2 Peter 2:1 "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves."
2 Peter 3:17 "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness"
2 John 8-9 "Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son."
1 Timothy 6:9-10 "But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang."
2 Peter 2:20-22 "For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.""
James 5:19-20 "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins."
Revelation 2:4-5 "'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 'Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of its place-unless you repent."
Revelation 3:5 "'He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels.
Revelation 3:16-17 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked"
Ezekiel 18:24-26 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? "When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die."
Explain this verse. And not only explain it, but explain it honestly:
Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
If you can't, no worries, it's really not possible to explain it any other way than an eternal security perspective. Because that's the truth.
Just as Moses lifted up the bronze serpent in the wilderness, and all who looked upon the serpent were healed, so too that anyone who looks upon the Son of Man and believes are saved. (John 3:14-15)
Come join the family of God. You're wanted. So much.
1. the OSAS group believes that there is nothing that we can do to remove ourselves from God's favor once we say the sinners prayer.
see, the core difference in the beliefs boils down to if we loss our right of choice or not.
maybe it is I who doesn't understand your position if you agree with what I said as this indicatesI already believe both of those, so neither. I guess I just don't know what you were referring to with the above statement.
That is a pretty good list
To the OP, your verse is a component of a Biblical paradox.
Other verses like Revelations 3:5 say that you can get your name into the Book of Life only to have it blotted (crossed) out later.
Jesus said (in the parable of the Unmerciful Servant) that our forgiven status can be revoked if we refuse to forgive others.Verse please
Calvinism:
Emphasizes the sovereignty of God and simply that nothing can happen outside God's control.
The Bible does talk this way in verses like: Isaiah 46:10
Critique:
1. This means that all non-elects were created with the foreknowledge and explicit purpose of being destined to hell for their sins. This contradicts God's nature in that He wills none to get lost: 2 Peter 3:9
Once again context takes a beating. When read in context the verse doesn't say that it is God's will that none are lost as that would contradict Christ's words that the gate to destruction is wide among numerous other verses but that God gives the us sufficient opportunity to be saved.
The Bible is very clear that the righteous in Christ will be raised to eternal life while the wicked will be raised to eternal destruction (which is Hell not annihilation) This does not happen outside of God's will
2. Following the above, one can also question - "Am I one of the elect? How can I know for sure?"
By using the Biblical criteria:
1 Testiony
2 Doctrine
3 Fruit
4 Sanctification
We are sealed for salvation. However we can intentionally and deliberately remove the seal by free will. It is only ever a conscious choice to remove the seal. It may accompany intentional sin, or it may be pride and selfish desires. But it is a choice to remove the "grief" that comes with working against the Spirit. It is a choice to become un-saved. A person is confident and assured of their salvation in every other case. Salvation does not rely on good behaviour. It is a gift. We receive it. We are sealed. It is like marriage. Divorce isn't caused by accidental or intentional (God forbid) sins against our partner. We choose to divorce if that's what we choose. But divorce can only happen by a deliberate choice to break the union/seal.
So then like the others you reject the Bible's teaching about the new nature and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
now, if you read what I said I did mention it was the general or basis understanding with fringe beliefs along the way on both sides of the issue....This may be how some OSAS folk believe but it is not how all of them believe. I, for one, do not believe there is any such thing as a Sinner's Prayer, a ritual prayer that confers salvation on people, but I do believe absolutely that once God saves a person they are forever His.
As Scripture makes very clear, we gain acceptance with God only by way of His Son, who we by faith receive as Saviour and submit to as Lord and in whose perfect righteousness we are clothed. It is his atonement and perfect righteousness in which we stand that gains us God's "favor."
yep...so far all you are talking about is points that most on both sides of the issue agree on. It isn't until you find the disagreement that discussion is meaningful. So by all means keep going...No, the matter boils down to how much power we think we wield over God's work. The salvation of every person is a monergistic work of God. He draws (Jn. 6:44), He convicts (Jn. 16:8), He regenerates (Eph. 2:1), He imparts all we need in the Person of His Spirit to be who He has called us to be (Ga. 5:22; Ro. 8:1-13). Salvation is entirely a work of God. And He began this process of salvation in each one of us when we were alienated from Him and enemies in our minds by wicked works (Col. 1:21). Our unrighteousness, however, our rebellion toward Him, did not hinder Him from bringing each of us to salvation.
now you are talking about sin separating us which is not what the non OSAS person believes for the most part. So why bring it up as if it is?What God began in saving us He also promises to continue and bring to completion (Phil. 1:6; 2:13; He. 12:2). Now, we may act like the Prodigal and exercise our freedom to choose to do what is evil to any extent we like, but this does not oblige God to capitulate to our bad choices. Our unfaithfulness to Him can't make Him unfaithful to us in turn. He isn't like us. We can't force Him by our sin to un-adopt us any more than the Prodigal Son could sin his way out of being his father's son.
and yet time and time again I have seen and been one of those Non OSAS people who post passages that show where God says these that are falling away are those that once knew the richness of His saving grace. So you will have to do better if you want to make your case.The apostle John points out, though, that people who claim to be spiritually regenerated but who live like the devil were never of the faith (1Jn. 2:19; 3:6-8). God's Spirit has a fundamental and powerful transforming effect upon each person into whose life He enters (2Cor. 5:17). As one would expect, that transforming effect and the richness of real, intimate fellowship with God by His Spirit prevents one who is genuinely born-again from "returning to Egypt."
the non OSAS person rarely believes that sin can separate us from God, well, that is except for the sin of rejecting God. IOW's you and other OSAS believers try to rely on the notion that the non OSAS person believes sin can separate us from our salvation. The reality however is that most non OSAS people believe only one sin can separate us from our salvation, the sin of rejection or blasphemy of the HS as some would call it. So if you want to make you case you need to address that not just pretend that something totally different is being said.So, a born-again person can choose to act contrary to their heavenly Father's will - and every born-again person does. Their freedom of will, their freedom to choose between right and wrong, between God's will and their own, is not removed. But this waywardness, this struggle with sin each believer endures, hasn't the power to undo what God has accomplished.
what would help is if both sides actually talked to each other without making assumptions about what they believe and in that actually listen to one another and study together the scriptures.It might help readers of this thread to consider the following:
http://www.christianforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/osas-god-saves-us-and-he-keeps-us.199944/
Selah.
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