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I didn't say that. There is no purgatory - I'm not Catholic.They both seem to have this concept that rewards are gained in purgatory which is what Codyfaith was saying.
Now your saying it's how you live now that accurs rewards but the earlier post said the rewards are gained in the afterlife when we choose to serve . Whether you want to call that purgatory or not that is what you are saying.I didn't say that. There is no purgatory - I'm not Catholic.
Rewards are merited to a Christian in the afterlife depending on how one lives this life. Salvation already exists for the believer, rewards are given depending on their obedience there after.
Rewards are given in the afterlife when we choose to serve Christ more intensely, to not sin, to choose holiness while we're in the faith, and by spreading the gospel.
The more one serves, the more rewards they will have in heaven. And of course the rewards are things like seeing the people they've brought to Christ and to the gospel, seeing the fruits of their labor, etc.
There is no gospel without eternal security. The gospel is salvation to the believer.
I think if you'll read in context you'll see pretty clearly I was talking about in this life. I mean, I did say spread the gospel... you don't spread the gospel in the after life...Now your saying it's how you live now that accurs rewards but the earlier post said the rewards are gained in the afterlife when we choose to serve . Whether you want to call that purgatory or not that is what you are saying.
Then why say rewards are given in the afterlife when we choose to serve Him more intensely?I think if you'll read in context you'll see pretty clearly I was talking about in this life. I mean, I did say spread the gospel... you don't spread the gospel in the after life...
In this life. Sorry for the confusion, it makes sense in my mind but it might not be properly worded.Then why say rewards are given in the afterlife when we choose to serve Him more intensely?
It does seem to need examining on your part.In this life. Sorry for the confusion, it makes sense in my mind but it might not be properly worded.
razzelflabben said in post 291:
Before someone tries to go off on some tangent about God supplying the things necessary to accomplish these things, that is something we agree on. What we disagree on is whether or not as in the words above from II Peter whether we need to "make every effort to supplement our faith..." so that we are not "useless and unfruitful..." and "forgotten the cleaning from our past sins..." so that we might "entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ..." this is the point of contention between the two sides as I see it.
razzelflabben said in post 293:
. . . we need to supplement our faith if we want to enter the eternal kingdom which is the direct opposite of OSAS teaching.
~Cassia~ said in post 300:
The Calvinist regards all these negative points as applying to the perdition of false believers . . .
What is your understanding of 1 corinthians 3:15 , those who have there works burnt but will be saved, yet as thru fire?Calvinism's mistaken doctrine of once-saved-always-saved through assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that saved people are robots. For if saved people cannot choose to do evil to the point where they can ultimately lose their salvation, then they no longer have free will. Also, the mistaken doctrine of assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that a Christian can have no present assurance that he is truly saved. For if a Christian who does not persevere to the end was never truly saved, then no Christian can presently have the assurance that he is truly saved. For no Christian can know if he will persevere to the end. Down the road, he could fail to persevere, and so end up showing that he was all along only a fake Christian, a self-deceived hypocrite.
But under true, Biblical doctrine, every believer in the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know that he is presently saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), if after he became a believer in the gospel he repented from his sins (1 John 3:6) and confessed them to God (1 John 1:9). And he can be sure that as a saved person, he can never be separated from the love of God, so long as he loves God (Romans 8:28-39), which means to obey him (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24). And no matter how many tests a saved person fails during his lifetime, sometime subsequent to his initial repentance, even if he fails and commits sin 70 times 7 times in a single day (Matthew 18:21-22, Luke 17:4), he can be sure that so long as he sincerely repents from every act of sin and confesses it to God, he will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9). He will lose his salvation ultimately only if he wrongly employs his free will to do something like committing a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).
and yet the passage specifies the entering into the "eternal kingdom"....which is what I asked you about as per this passage...we will keep reading and see if you ever answer the question.salvation is from the earthly and physical realm to the heavenly and spiritual sphere, plus glorification. however one doesn't immediately go from earthly existance and wake up in eternity. the judgement seat of Christ comes before the great white throne.
Rewards are seen here Matt. 5:20; 7:21-23; 16:24-27; 19:23-30; 24:46-51; 25:11-13, 21, 23, 26-30; Luke 12:42-48; 19:17, 19, 22-27; Rom. 14:10, 12; 1 Cor. 3:8, 13-15; 4:5; 9:24-27; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Tim. 4:7-8; Heb. 2:3; 4:1, 9, 11; 6:4-8; 10:26-31, 35-39; 12:16-17, 28-29; and Rev. 2:7, 10-11, 17, 26-27; 3:4-5, 11-12, 20; 22:12.
I don't know why you keep talking about "calvanist vs arminian" I simply what to talk about the word of God and what it says not what man says.Calvanist vs Arminian view are what this thread is confining itself to.
unless the reward you are speaking of is "entry into the eternal kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ". Then you are NOT address the question posed by the passage in question.They both seem to have this concept that rewards are gained in purgatory which is what Codyfaith was saying.
I still don't get what you are trying to argue...is the entry into the eternal kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ the reward you are talking about losing or not? and if so, what do you do with all the passages that say the believer will go to "heaven"?Neither of these schools recognizes the reward of the kingdom; nor do either side see the suffering of the loss of the kingdom reward. Both consider all the negative points in the above verses as referring to perdition. The Calvinist regards all these negative points as applying to the perdition of false believers; while the Arminian school, believing that a saved person will perish if he falls, regards these points as applying to the perdition of believers who have fallen.
Without the concept of rewards as given before the millenium the interpretation of these verses falls into either the extreme objectiveness of the Calvinist school or the extreme subjectiveness of the Arminian school.
Rewards are given in the afterlife when we choose to serve Christ more intensely, to not sin, to choose holiness while we're in the faith, and by spreading the gospel.
The more one serves, the more rewards they will have in heaven. And of course the rewards are things like seeing the people they've brought to Christ and to the gospel, seeing the fruits of their labor, etc.
I would have to ask you then, do you divide all of the verses about heaven, eternity, kingdom etc between the millenium and eternity or do you just clump them all together and call it a day?and yet the passage specifies the entering into the "eternal kingdom"....which is what I asked you about as per this passage...we will keep reading and see if you ever answer the question. I don't know why you keep talking about "calvanist vs arminian" I simply what to talk about the word of God and what it says not what man says. unless the reward you are speaking of is "entry into the eternal kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ". Then you are NOT address the question posed by the passage in question. I still don't get what you are trying to argue...is the entry into the eternal kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ the reward you are talking about losing or not? and if so, what do you do with all the passages that say the believer will go to "heaven"?
HuH? I don't even understand the question...there is eternity and there is the millennium...two different things, even the words tell us they are not the same thing.I would have to ask you then, do you divide all of the verses about heaven, eternity, kingdom etc between the millenium and eternity or do you just clump them all together and call it a day?
~Cassia~ said in post 310:
What is your understanding of 1 corinthians 3:15 , those who have there works burnt but will be saved, yet as thru fire?
This is the source of the reasoning behind purgatory is it not?That refers only to the loss of reward for the work of spiritually building up a church congregation (1 Corinthians 3:8-17), if that work is done in a faulty manner, by focusing on the merely-temporal "wood, hay, stubble" (1 Corinthians 3:12) of human, worldly wisdom (1 Corinthians 3:18-20), and the glorying in human leaders of the church (1 Corinthians 3:4,21), instead of focusing on Jesus and the everlasting wisdom of his Word the Bible (1 Corinthians 2:2 to 3:23; 1 Peter 1:23-25). 1 Corinthians 3:15 is not contradicting that if a saved person, whether a church builder or not, wrongly employs his free will to stop doing any good works, to become utterly lazy without repentance, he will in the end lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a,6). He will obtain ultimate salvation only if he patiently continues in good works and obedience to the end (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24).
Nope. What my question comes down to is, does a Christian still have free will such that he can reject God, or has that freedom been eliminated by being saved?
wait a moment...where I love the analogy, scripture does say they have a right to divorce because of the hardness of their hearts. It also says that to do so means they are not living in the righteousness of Christ which is what we are called to. Matthew 19:8...iow's because of the hardness of the heart divorce was permitted but came with a price, the price was violating God's will and purpose. I think if you want to make a case for eternal security you need to use a different example then the "free will" of divorce in marriage. The teaching clearly teaches God's will in opposition to our will and how our will allows us to divorce even when God wants us to stay together.Once a person out of the free will gets married, do they then have the freedom to divorce? Not according to the Word of God. Much the same thing here. In fact both Eph 5 and Rom 7 use marriage to symbolize the Christian's union with Christ. Are married people robots? Are they without free will? Of course they have free will, but having been saved one is not allowed the right to become unsaved.
And what does it say in Romans 8?
"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Time - the future - can't change one's status, which is the same to say "Once Saved Always Saved", and regard the "free choice" issue, notice that neither can anything else in all creation, which included the person themself, seeing as they are part of the creation.
That's probably why when Paul taught of rewards he prayed that he would receive all the crowns.wait a moment...where I love the analogy, scripture does say they have a right to divorce because of the hardness of their hearts. It also says that to do so means they are not living in the righteousness of Christ which is what we are called to. Matthew 19:8...iow's because of the hardness of the heart divorce was permitted but came with a price, the price was violating God's will and purpose. I think if you want to make a case for eternal security you need to use a different example then the "free will" of divorce in marriage. The teaching clearly teaches God's will in opposition to our will and how our will allows us to divorce even when God wants us to stay together.
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