To spank or not to spank please vote

[DivineRAiN]

Rae: I think all research shows that spanking is at best ineffective

I think it depends on what kind of parenting is actually going on.
If a Mother is inconsistent, with flimsy boundaries that she enforces when she's in the mood.. any kind of discipline can be ineffective. I don't think spanking in n of itself is ineffective.

 

[DivineRAiN]

dlamberth: What happens when the child get older, say something like 8 or 9, or maybe even 12 or 13? Is one swat going to be enough?

The last time my daughter got spanked she was around 9 or 10. I rarely ever gave just 1 lil swat even when she was in diapers. The last time she was hit 5 or 6 times n that had to do with peer pressure, and getting herself involved in a situation that wasn't her business (and I had talked to her the day before about staying out of the fued that's going on with some of our neighbors)

It seems to me that "if" the child had learned boundaries when they were wearing diapers, that they would not have need for swats when they were older.

I have to ask, do you have children? My daughter was between 2 and 3 when she stopped wearing diapers... at that age, peer pressure wasn't an issue. Sex, drugs, curfew, outside influences (some of that can fall under peer pressure), stealing, lying, grades, homework, using people/friends, gossip, empathy, respect, how to treat people, racism and prejudism,
looking both ways before crossing the street.. these weren't issues. At 2 and 3yrs old, she didn't know what drugs were, racism n prejudism,.. she didn't know about using people/friends. What's gossip and talking crap about ppl behind their back to a 2yo?
There are boundaries that are already in place, toddlers are too young to know about all of them.

Beyond that, the visual of even a single swat on a child in diapers is killing me.

It doesn't kill me at all

 

[TheUJKiller]

I spank. I spank frequently and often. I spank anytime I feel the need. Without spanking, things can build up until they just errupt in your face and then you have a huge mess to clean up.

Spanking just makes sense.

 

[Charlie V]

I decided to do a little quick research on spanking.Fortunately I was able to find a website that consolidated a great deal of information on this topic.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/spanking.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/spanking_menu.htm

Some excerpts:

[FONT=arial,helvetica]The Department of Health and Human Services and the New England Journal of Medicine estimate that 1,000 to 2,000 children die every year in the U.S. from corporal punishment that has escalated to a lethal level. They estimate that 142,000 are seriously injured annually. 1 [/FONT]

Studies have shown links to [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]"corporal punishment and lower IQs, teenage delinquency, adult criminality, marital conflict and spousal abuse." [/FONT]

One study of 5,000 people showed a relationship between spanking and mental disorders.

Anxiety 16.3% (Never spanked) [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]18.8% (Rarely spanked) 21.3% (Sometimes/often spanked)
[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Major depression [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]4.6% (Never spanked) [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]4.8% (Rarely spanked) [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]6.9% (Sometimes/often spanked)[/FONT] [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]
Alcohol abuse or addiction [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]5.8% (Never spanked) [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]10.2% (Rarely spanked) [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]13.2%[/FONT] [/FONT][/FONT](Sometimes/often spanked)[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]
More than one disorder * [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]7.5% (Never spanked) [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]12.6% (Rarely
spanked) 16.7% (Sometimes/often spanked)[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]* More than one disorder included illicit drug abuse, addictions & antisocial behavior. [/FONT]

 

[Adriac]

I was 'spanked' as a child and I can tell you, the fear of being hit after I used to wack my sister (I was quite vicious as a child) definately taught me right and wrong. As long as you don't smack a child out of anger, and only for discipline I think it is fine.

Okay, but here's the question I pose to you: Did that really cause you to develop a sense of right and wrong, or merely an appreciation for the consequences of your actions?

To put it more bluntly, did you gain an internal sense of morality founded on empathy, or an external sense of morality founded on enforcement?

I would argue the former is the more preferable, and, while not impossible, the harder of the two to teach with Pavlovian conditioning.

 

[Robinsegg]

I decided to do a little quick research on spanking.Fortunately I was able to find a website that consolidated a great deal of information on this topic.

Well, I did some quick research and found this site: http://people.biola.edu/faculty/paulp/spare_the_rod.htm
It seems to have a comprehensive set of studies it reports, and goes through the arguments against spanking, one by one.

Here's an excerpt:
Critics claim that spanking a child is abusive and contributes to adult dysfunction. These allegations arise from studies that fail to distinguish appropriate spanking from other forms of punishment. Abusive forms of physical punishment such as kicking, punching, and beating are commonly grouped with mild spanking. Furthermore, the studies usually include, and even emphasize, corporal punishment of adolescents, rather than focusing on preschool children, where spanking is more effective. This blurring of distinctions between spanking and physical abuse, and between children of different ages, gives critics the illusion of having data condemning all disciplinary spanking.

Rachel

 

[PETE_]

Well, I did some quick research and found this site: http://people.biola.edu/faculty/paulp/spare_the_rod.htm
It seems to have a comprehensive set of studies it reports, and goes through the arguments against spanking, one by one.

Here's an excerpt:
Critics claim that spanking a child is abusive and contributes to adult dysfunction. These allegations arise from studies that fail to distinguish appropriate spanking from other forms of punishment. Abusive forms of physical punishment such as kicking, punching, and beating are commonly grouped with mild spanking. Furthermore, the studies usually include, and even emphasize, corporal punishment of adolescents, rather than focusing on preschool children, where spanking is more effective. This blurring of distinctions between spanking and physical abuse, and between children of different ages, gives critics the illusion of having data condemning all disciplinary spanking.

Rachel

Good sight. Pretty much covers all aspects of the subject.

 

[Charlie V]

Well, I did some quick research and found this site: http://people.biola.edu/faculty/paulp/spare_the_rod.htm
It seems to have a comprehensive set of studies it reports, and goes through the arguments against spanking, one by one.

Here's an excerpt:
Critics claim that spanking a child is abusive and contributes to adult dysfunction. These allegations arise from studies that fail to distinguish appropriate spanking from other forms of punishment. Abusive forms of physical punishment such as kicking, punching, and beating are commonly grouped with mild spanking. Furthermore, the studies usually include, and even emphasize, corporal punishment of adolescents, rather than focusing on preschool children, where spanking is more effective. This blurring of distinctions between spanking and physical abuse, and between children of different ages, gives critics the illusion of having data condemning all disciplinary spanking.

Rachel

Actually, the study I cited was specifically in regards to spanking -- and not kicking or punching or beating.

The link you posted is largely an opinion peice slanting the evidence to be in favor of spanking. The claims made may be debunked..

Many of the faulty arguments in your opinion peice in favor of spanking are effectively countered here:

http://www.nospank.net/johnson2.htm

and here:

http://www.geocities.com/cddugan/ProspankStudies.html

Each of these links is an answer to the link you provided, answering each counterpoint with the counter-counterpoint demonstrating the flaws in the arguments.

Further, the body of evidence is against spanking, and a huge majority of experts agree that spanking is detrimental to a child's well being.

Here's a letter http://www.nospank.net/apa-let.htm signed by a long list of researchers on this subject -- the list of researchers and their crudentials is far longer than the letter itself -- urging an "unequivocal opposition to all corporal punishment."

It states that "because children are most in need of their family members’ love and nurturance, corporal punishment from those closest to them can be even more damaging to their emotional well-being because it shatters the bond of trust in human relationship at its very foundations."

Charlie

 

[Charlie V]

Good sight. Pretty much covers all aspects of the subject.

Inaccurately so, yes, as I've demonstrated. It's unfortunate for our children that so many people so stubbornly defend corporal punishment, considering the harm it does our children.

Charlie

 

[Rae]

It's unfortunate for our children that so many people so stubbornly defend corporal punishment, considering the harm it does our children.

Amen.

 

[ebia]

Inaccurately so, yes, as I've demonstrated. It's unfortunate for our children that so many people so stubbornly defend corporal punishment, considering the harm it does our children.

Charlie

However, it is also unrealistic to expect substantial change until far more is done to equip parents with more appropriate skills in disciplining their children.

 

[I'ddie4him]

My husband is launching a site for dads and we're trying to get the forums going, can you cast your vote on whether or not to spank a child is okay? the link to the thread is

http://www.notmrmom.com/forums/nfphpbb/viewtopic.php?t=6

I do NOT agree with spanking a child.
However, A single whack on the bottom when they are doing something they've been told repeatedly not to do ??
It is to get their attention.
Not as a means of punishment.
Thats just my opinion tho.

 

[PETE_]

However, it is also unrealistic to expect substantial change until far more is done to equip parents with more appropriate skills in disciplining their children.

Most parents that I know that spank their children are skilled in multiple forms of discipline.They just have an additional tool in the toolbox.

 

[ebia]

Most parents that I know that spank their children are skilled in multiple forms of discipline.They just have an additional tool in the toolbox.

Almost all parents are ill-equipped, not just those who spank. If one has the proper tools to mend a watch, one doesn't need to use a sledgehammer.

 

[Charlie V]

Who needs tools?

I think Jesus would have agreed with the Beatles. All you need is love!

Okay, that, plus a little patience. And a little common sense. Like knowing when and how to say, "No!" and let them know you mean it.

I've raised my 7-year-old very well, I think. She's a great kid, she's good in school, she's empathetic, she's smart.

She's not perfect -- she's a normal kid. She whines sometimes, she wants this or that, and sometimes I have to say no, but I'm okay with that, I don't expect her to be perfect at all times, and we move on and that's about the end of it.

I haven't hit her once. Haven't even wanted to. Never Not for a second. The idea of me hitting her, to me, is like the idea of me sticking a needle in my own eye.

And I never thought to myself, "Gee, I wish I had a tool for my toolbelt."

Charlie

 

[Robinsegg]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/spanking.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/spanking_menu.htm

You know, I've seen the "religious tolerance" website before. I looked at what you linked, and I've looked at other areas on the site. It seems pretty liberally biased, whatever they say to the contrary. Yeah, it presents both sides. But it presents the liberal side better, with more "oomph".

While I'm sure it will be difficult to find nonbiased information, since this is a fairly highly charged topic, I notice that there's evidence on both sides, and that people feel strongly on both sides. The reason people can't just "agree to disagree" on this issue (at least in general) is because people bring the "child abuse" issue into it.

Child abuse is a serious charge, indicating the parent's wish to "inflict injury on". I've never wanted to inflict injury on my children. I learned through personal experience (a medical issue starting at age 18) that pain is a powerful detertent. It can teach self discipline. It can provide immediate consequences when the natural ones are far more detrimental or too far in the future to be of help. I'm not talking about a beating, leaving marks, or breaking anything (including the skin). One swat never hurt anybody for more than a couple of minutes, and has taught children much over the centuries.

Do I condone real abuse? No. Anybody beating a child, leaving marks, burning, sexually assaulting, cutting, etc. a child needs to be burried in the sand up to their necks. But I don't believe that responsible spanking (which does none of the above) falls in that category.

Rachel

 

[Charlie V]

You know, I've seen the "religious tolerance" website before. I looked at what you linked, and I've looked at other areas on the site. It seems pretty liberally biased, whatever they say to the contrary. Yeah, it presents both sides. But it presents the liberal side better, with more "oomph".

Everything is footnoted, so you can check the references. If you disagree with something you read, find through the references what the specific inaccuracies are.

While I'm sure it will be difficult to find nonbiased information, since this is a fairly highly charged topic, I notice that there's evidence on both sides, and that people feel strongly on both sides.

Impossible, I dare say. The more highly charged the topic, the less nonbiased information there is, and the more propoganda peices you'll find.

Just type "abortion" in google and press enter. You'll find millions of links -- millions of them. I challenge you to find a single one that's completely nonbiased containing only neutral information. I don't think such a site exists in all those millions of links google will find.

However, I maintain that in this particular case, the case against corporal punishment is far stronger than the case in favor.

In time, I suspect it will simply be common knowledge. There's not much contravercy over whether or not smoking is bad for your health -- but there once was, and there were people yelling very loudly quoting physicians and studies that, the propogandist claim, proved that smoking is good for your health.

I believe in time it will simply be common knowledge that corporal punishment is bad for kids, and that the current evidence is strongly in that direction.

Charlie

 

[Charlie V]

One swat never hurt anybody for more than a couple of minutes, and has taught children much over the centuries.

If one swat is okay, how about two? Three? How much force goes into that swat? Is there a scientific way to measure the amount of force in a swat and guarentee it remains in the non-harmful area for all people?

Can we draw a line and say, "Everything on that side is harmful abuse, and everything on that side is perfectly okay, and there are no gray areas in the middle, and everyone is in full agreement on that?"

No. Therefore it becomes subjective, allowing for the danger that your definition of abuse not meet mine, and the children are the ones who suffer.

Second -- there's emotional issues, issues that last far longer than the few seconds of physical pain. Installing fear in your children which displaces the trust that they need to have.

There are other affective deterrants which do not install fear and do not displace trust.

Another issue is that spanking is a knee-jerk reaction to a behavior that does absolutely nothing to get at the root cause of the behavior. Sometimes causes are complex.

Perhaps the child needs attention -- does spanking give the child the needed attention? And why does the child need the attention? Is it possible that there's an underlying problem? Is something going on at school, in the church? Is the child being bullied, perhaps even molested or abused by someone outside the home, and acting out as a form of escapism?

Or -- is it that we're doing something wrong? May be the child is dissappointed because we completely forgot to ask about her dance recital or some such thing, and came home exitedly waiting for us to ask, and we forgot, so they're hurt and acting out.

Or might it be something else, something we have no clue about? Perhaps the child is having problems at school because of an as-yet-undiagnosed dyslexia or other problem. And the kids made fun of him, so now, he's acting whiny or acting out in other ways, so we solve the problem with a spanking. Perhaps our child took the cookies before dinner because he is too embarrassed to tell us about the bully that has been stealing his lunch and smashing it.

Disobedience or wrong behavior isn't always as straightforward as it appears -- and spanking does nothing but silence and distance the child, buring the root problems even deeper. It addresses nothing of the root cause of the behavior.

Charlie

 

[Isis-Astoroth]

The fear is only maintained as a child. I do not believe that smacking a child has long term effects. A child would have to have problems in other areas for smacking to have an effect.

 

[Charlie V]

The fear is only maintained as a child. I do not believe that smacking a child has long term effects. A child would have to have problems in other areas for smacking to have an effect.

Whose child has no problems in any other areas? As I outlined above, spanking does not get to the root cause of the problem.

The statistical evidence I presented in post 244 http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=25562924&postcount=244 suggests that it may certainly have long term effects.

Charlie