To spank or not to spank please vote

[Robinsegg]

This is not the question. The question is how we are doing that.

I don't know you, or much about you, since you don't tell us much with icons. I'll try to tell you where I'm coming from on this:
The Bible tells us that God created the family, and He tells us how it is to work.
1. All believers (those with a relationship to God) are to submit to each other, and encourage each other in godly action.
2. The husband is the head of the family. He is the final authority and ultimately accountable for what happens in the home and his family's well-being. He is also a picture of God for his children
3. The wife is the helper of the husband. She is to help him in all things (sometimes including telling him when he's wrong). She is to respect his authority/accountability position and allow him to lead the family (with her help and input). She is also a picture of the Church for her children.
4. The children are to obey and respect their parents. God put them in this family with this set of parents and under their authority/accountability. They are to be trained, loved and disciplined. As they grow, they are to be discipled both in the faith and in how to be good citizens/adults.

I take much of this from Ephesians 5:22-6:4.http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%205:22-6:4;&version=31;

Apologizing later will help, too.

I apologize quite often, actually. There are times when I make unwarrented assumptions, unduly speak sharply with a child, or make another mistake. I make it my priority at those times to model apology and being contrite. It also gives them the opportunity (as a byproduct) to practice forgiveness.

Rachel

 

[Charlie V]

You seem that way to me as well. I wish I could say the same about the vast majority of your "progressive" bretheren. They seem exactly like Christian Fundamentlists to me -- only more condescending and more violent. And they worship a different god. Suffice it to say that I have a gob-smackingly low opinion of "progressivism", but if you are nice to me then we may turn out to be friends some day. I've just found that most "progressives" think I'm a walking piece of flea excrement who deserves to be shotgunned in the face and urinated on, so we usually don't get along very well.

I've.. honestly never met or heard of anybody like you describe.

I'm actually wondering if we have entirely different definitions of progressives. The progressives I've met have been humble, extremely non-violent.

In fact, I've never met a violent progressive -- ever! Though I've known plenty of violent people. I've met progressives who were painfully passive -- too passive even for my tastes. (Often those progressives were Buddhists.)

Progressives I've known have worshipped a variety of Gods, including the Christian God, though some not and some Atheists -- I actually think which religion is chosen has little to do with it though progressives interpret the same religions differently. They tend to see whatever God they choose as loving rather than judgmental, in my experience.

And.. um.. to my experience progressives oppose shotgunning people in the face.. or.. other things you mention, they support humane treatment of people, even criminals. Many progressives, myself included, aren't big gun people -- few are in the NRA for sure.

But I wonder if we have different definitions of what a "progressive" is..

Charlie

 

[DivineRAiN]

Charlie: The children do learn a lesson -- but it's not the lesson you wanted them to learn. They learn the lesson that bullying is an appropriate response to actions you don't approve of.

I know that is not true.. nice example tho.
In another post, I posted about my step-sibling's niece.. in another post when I posted about kids who aren't spanked but they turn around n smack their Mothers around, I had their brother in mind.
The father of the child who was killed by his wife. Johnny, (unknown to him, ppl thought of him as a little damian) .. he always had a violent temper. He didn't only smack his Mother around, he bullied kids, later he was physically abusive to the women in his life.
He was beating the crap out of his girlfriend in his Mother's basement when she was 7 or 8 months pregnant with their first child.
This isn't an isolated situation, I've been around too many kids.
And oddly enough, the kid that lived down the street is a Johnny.. similar situation in regards to having a violent temper, going after his Mother, and never been spanked.
My friend's first daughter was a mean one, you had to keep an eye on her. She was a biter, along with shoving kids down, smacking kids over the head with toys, digging her nails into a kid's arm, yanking hair. (and she wasn't even 2yrs old yet) She didn't learn these things from being spanked.. she wasn't spanked.

 

[Charlie V]

Charlie: The children do learn a lesson -- but it's not the lesson you wanted them to learn. They learn the lesson that bullying is an appropriate response to actions you don't approve of.

I know that is not true.. nice example tho.
In another post, I posted about my step-sibling's niece.. in another post when I posted about kids who aren't spanked but they turn around n smack their Mothers around, I had their brother in mind.
The father of the child who was killed by his wife. Johnny, (unknown to him, ppl thought of him as a little damian) .. he always had a violent temper. He didn't only smack his Mother around, he bullied kids, later he was physically abusive to the women in his life.
He was beating the crap out of his girlfriend in his Mother's basement when she was 7 or 8 months pregnant with their first child.
This isn't an isolated situation, I've been around too many kids.
And oddly enough, the kid that lived down the street is a Johnny.. similar situation in regards to having a violent temper, going after his Mother, and never been spanked.
My friend's first daughter was a mean one, you had to keep an eye on her. She was a biter, along with shoving kids down, smacking kids over the head with toys, digging her nails into a kid's arm, yanking hair. (and she wasn't even 2yrs old yet) She didn't learn these things from being spanked.. she wasn't spanked.

I didn't say that all violence comes from spanking -- nor did I say that all spanking results in violence. Sometimes spanking results in overly-submissive kids who become victims.

But more often than not, the wrong message is conveyed.

And, certainly, there are other factors which lead a kid into violence. I do not know the life story of your brother, so I cannot tell you what specifically lead him to be abusive to his mother. I suspect only a psychiatrist who spends an ample amount of time with him could get to the root cause of his individual violence.

I could tell you about people who were spanked and became abusive, and abusers. I could also tell you about people who were not spanked who were very well adjusted. All of this, of course, is anechdotal, and none of this means that the same thing will happen to everybody in every case -- and in fact, no two people have the same experiences, and there are many levels to which people have been spanked, abused, neglected, psychologically abused, sexually abused, and the list goes on and on.. and sometimes it's happened in schools, in churches, and sometimes at home. I'm not saying that in every case, it's the parents, nor am I saying anything about "every case." Sometimes, bad things happen that have nothing to do with spanking or the lack of spanking. I'm not saying, "Don't spank, and everything will be rosy always. Spank, and life will be horrendous always." Sometimes, the 50 zillion other factors in life have affects too.

You can't just look at two people and whether they were spanked by their parents or not and draw conclusions because that ignores how their baby sitters treate them, how their siblings treated them, their genetics. Even a food allergy can cause violence! What I'm saying is not, "This is always the cause, this is always the result.."

Currently, not only from my anechdotal experience but also from my reading, the best of our knowledge based on case studies supports the conclusion that other methods of discipline are preferred. And, certainly, in plenty of cases, wrong messages are being gotten from children when they are hit.

Charlie

 

[quatona]

I've just found that most "progressives" think I'm a walking piece of flea excrement who deserves to be shotgunned in the face and urinated on, so we usually don't get along very well.

How the heck did you manage to find what most progressives think about you?
I would also like to find out what most progressives think about me.

 

[DivineRAiN]

charlie: So would it be okay if the child were to hit another child for direct defiance, giving the other child the option of apologizing immediately, if your child told another child to "do this"?

nope, but I must admit I never had to deal with that kind of a situation. My daughter isn't a bully. I was never a bully. We're the sensitive type.
That is why when my daughter and 2 of her friends were watching something on discovery or learning channel.. about children with the disease that makes them age quickly.... 2 of them didn't laugh and they told the girl who did laugh that it wasn't funny. The other girl stopped laughing. The one who laughed is the girl from down the street (Johnny's sister). My daughter n the other girl didn't think it was funny, .. both were raised with some spankings. (not for each and every wrongdoing)
Who do you think is the bully? The girl who laughed would cuss an adult out in a heartbeat (she does it to her parents n other adults on this block including myself), and letcha know that if u lay a hand on her you'll be the one going to jail. She'll attack yer kids just to get to you.
Her, and her brother n older sister ran out into the street so their aunt had to stop her van.. they broke out the windows, Johnny smacked her in the face with whatever he had in his hand. The Mother was arrested (at first the cops didn't want to do anything and threatened to arrest the aunt's husband coz of his attitude.. they said because of the damage done to the van didn't exceed so much money, it wasn't a felonious assault).
The kids didn't receive any consequences at all for what they did.

 

[Charlie V]

My daughter n the other girl didn't think it was funny, .. both were raised with some spankings. (not for each and every wrongdoing)
Who do you think is the bully? The girl who laughed would cuss an adult out in a heartbeat

Not enough information, but from what you describe, this probably has nothing to do with spanking. What you describe actually might possibly suggest (again, not enough information) that the third girl is suffering from a mental illness which may be the result of a chemical imbalance or physical disorder.

Laughing at inappropriate things is a known symptom of mental illness. I have a brother that suffers from temporal lobe eplilepsy as the result of brain damage during child birth. It was made worse by his misdiagnosis of having ADD and his having been on Ritalin when it was contraindicated as a child. I once saw him laugh hysterically at the funeral of an infant. It's not that he's mean, it's that he's suffering from a disorder.

Perhaps this is the case with your child's friend. That it was the result of some illness or disorder.

But, if you suspect this is the cause, I wouldn't let that make them cast her out. People suffering from mental disorders need as much understanding as they can get, and often suffer discrimination. They need friends, not discrimination.

And, again, I have not nearly enough information and I'm not a psychiatrist. But you can't automatically draw conclusions about people based on spanking or no spanking. You can only make observations about what the results of spanking are.

The kids didn't receive any consequences at all for what they did

Nobody's recommending that either. There are other alternatives.

Time outs. Lectures. Getting grounded. Putting a lock on the TV set. No dessert tonight. No allowance for two weeks.

The list of additional alternatives is very long.

Charlie

 

[Loundry]

I've.. honestly never met or heard of anybody like you describe.

I'm actually wondering if we have entirely different definitions of progressives. The progressives I've met have been humble, extremely non-violent.

It might just be that you happen to be idologically aligned with the people you come across, so you don't inspire them to their hateful extremes. I don't mean to slur your personal friends -- please forgive me if I come across that way. I'm only trying to explain why "progressives" might be very kind to you whereas they have been outright abusive toward me.

In fact, I've never met a violent progressive -- ever! Though I've known plenty of violent people. I've met progressives who were painfully passive -- too passive even for my tastes. (Often those progressives were Buddhists.)

Allow me to introduce you to one.

"I have a very hard time with this word 'non-violence', because I don't believe that I am non-violent," said [Nobel peace laureate Betty Williams], 64.

"Right now, I would love to kill George Bush." Her young audience at the Brisbane City Hall clapped and cheered.

Notice the "clapped and cheered" at the exhortation toward murder.

Link: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/printpage/0,5942,19902313,00.html

If you want to see more violence and hate, you can head over to dailykos.com.

Many progressives, myself included, aren't big gun people -- few are in the NRA for sure.

Many other "progressives" have pictures of Ernesto "Che" Guevara, who is famous for having a really cool drawing made of him, and less famous for having personally murdered lots of people. With guns.

But I wonder if we have different definitions of what a "progressive" is..

That's probably very true. Perhaps it is that you prefer to focus on the good in "progressivism" whereas I am incapable of getting over the bad. Things like compassion toward child rapists and violent Islamic murderers really get my goat. The "progressives" will then call me "cruel" because I think that child rapists should NOT be let back into society, and "Islamophobic" because I think Islam sucks on behalf of its mandate that I, as a gay man, be stoned to death. Their rhetoric goes downhill from there, and the "progressives" start wishing ill upon me. It's awful and I hate it.

I feel sad about it. I used to admire parts of the left, whereas now I feel angry, bitter, and contemptuous. Please forgive me if I seem overly hostile toward you. I'm expecting you to start attacking me at any minute.

 

[Loundry]

How the heck did you manage to find what most progressives think about you?
I would also like to find out what most progressives think about me.

I should have written, "I've found that most 'progressives' that I have met think I am...". When I talk about this subject, I have a hard time being coherent. It's the feeling of being attacked and betrayed that just clobbers my ability to be cogent. It stinks.

 

[Charlie V]

"Right now, I would love to kill George Bush." Her young audience at the Brisbane City Hall clapped and cheered.

Notice the "clapped and cheered" at the exhortation toward murder.

Oh, come on now!

I'm not defending what was said -- but you don't take such words so seriously as to call the person violent?

The person is raging, seething with anger because the butcher in the White House is a mini-Hitler. But less intelligent and worse with the economy.

There are plenty of people who would have said, when he was alive, "I'd like to kill Hitler," it doesn't mean the person is actually violent or could actually do that.

Charlie

 

[Charlie V]

Things like compassion toward child rapists and violent Islamic murderers really get my goat.

# 1. I believe that child molestors should spend life behind bars. I do not believe in the abuse of prisoners, nor do I believe in making their lives luxurious. I believe in humane treament for prisonors. Most child molestors suffer from incurable illnesses, but must be kept seperate from society for the protection of the children.

# 2. Many of those in prisons such as Guantanimo Bay, and even the infamous Abu Ghraib, have been imprisoned without evidence and held for long periods without given the right to a trial, then have been horribly tortured. Not only is this inhumane, but they might be innocent, and the situation also puts our own troops at risk for retalitory actions. There are very good reasons why we have rules against such things.

By the way, just like radical Christianity (some radical Christians would want to kill homosexuals as per their interpretation of the Old Testament) is different from mainstream and liberal Christianity, radical Islam is different from mainstream an liberal Islam. There are plenty of Muslims who don't want to kill homosexuals or anyone else.

Charlie

 

[Loundry]

<POV skipped>

We're waaaaay off-topic Charlie, so I'll refrain from response. In short, thank you for being nice to me.

 

[DivineRAiN]

charlie: I could tell you about people who were spanked and became abusive, and abusers. I could also tell you about people who were not spanked who were very well adjusted

I know my posts do get long n drawn out (i'm a typical A female in that regard).. I was trying to express that spankings n non-spankings isn't the deciding factor. Bullies come from homes where they were spanked and where there were no spankings.
Same with children with broken spirits.. they exist in both homes.
Some of the posters here post that spanking causes A, B, and C.. and it's like wait a minute... I know A, B, C exists in homes where the parents don't believe in putting their hands on a child.

 

[Charlie V]

cI was trying to express that spankings n non-spankings isn't the deciding factor.

It isn't the only factor, certainly.

That doesn't change what I said about spanking (or other forms of physical discipline) specifically.

Some of the posters here post that spanking causes A, B, and C.. and it's like wait a minute... I know A, B, C exists in homes where the parents don't believe in putting their hands on a child.

A, B, and C have multiple causes.

Smoking causes cancer. I know non-smokers who have cancer, and smokers who don't. It doesn't change the fact about smoking.
Charlie

 

[quatona]

I should have written, "I've found that most 'progressives' that I have met think I am...".

Ok.

When I talk about this subject, I have a hard time being coherent. It's the feeling of being attacked and betrayed that just clobbers my ability to be cogent. It stinks.

I see. Then it´s probably the wrong moment to discuss it.

 

[quatona]

I don't know you, or much about you, since you don't tell us much with icons.

What is it you want to know? The reason I don´t make much use of the icons is not that I want to withhold information, but rather my feeling that they are not really informative.

I'll try to tell you where I'm coming from on this:
The Bible tells us that God created the family, and He tells us how it is to work.
1. All believers (those with a relationship to God) are to submit to each other, and encourage each other in godly action.
2. The husband is the head of the family. He is the final authority and ultimately accountable for what happens in the home and his family's well-being. He is also a picture of God for his children
3. The wife is the helper of the husband. She is to help him in all things (sometimes including telling him when he's wrong). She is to respect his authority/accountability position and allow him to lead the family (with her help and input). She is also a picture of the Church for her children.
4. The children are to obey and respect their parents. God put them in this family with this set of parents and under their authority/accountability. They are to be trained, loved and disciplined. As they grow, they are to be discipled both in the faith and in how to be good citizens/adults.

I take much of this from Ephesians 5:22-6:4.http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%205:22-6:4;&version=31;

I don´t believe in biblegod - what else can I say?

I apologize quite often, actually. There are times when I make unwarrented assumptions, unduly speak sharply with a child, or make another mistake. I make it my priority at those times to model apology and being contrite. It also gives them the opportunity (as a byproduct) to practice forgiveness.

Sounds great to me.
I personally do not care much for those guilt/punishment/forgiveness ideas, though. But that would be a topic on its own.

 

[ebia]

Oh no, Punishment is a deterrent for crime. The Death penalty is the reason alot of people are alive and alot more arent on death row.

There is precious little evidence of that when one looks at the many countries that have abolished the death penalty.

 

[ebia]

Ah, but were they increasing like this when "hard labor" was involved? When they were expected to help society, even while being in prison? You see, making license plates was good for society, and that's how they "paid they're debt to society", by fulfilling services like that. I always thought it a great system.

Giving them gym equipment, cable tv and college education doesn't seem to work, I'll give you that. And, while I don't disagree with allowing inmates to learn and better themselves, I don't think the "time out" is really all that effective for most prisoners. I would actually advocate putting them back to work and keep them busy in order to make imprisonment a more useful consequence (repaying society making it restorative?).

Rachel

Restorative justice is more than just imposing useful work instead of imposing something else, but its getting well beyond what I have time to write up at this moment in time.

 

[ebia]

Im not on death row am I?

There is your proof its a deterrant.

I hope that wasn't mean seriously.

 

[Bananafish]

Ah, so you don't like the concept of teaching kids how they should behave any certain way. I get it. Does this mean that children should decide for themselves if bullying others is appropriate? Or dealing drugs? Or reaching for electrical outlets?

Interesting.
Rachel

Yes, they should decide for themselves. Are you going to be around for your children every single second of their lives to help them make their decisions? I would hope not...

Let's say your child hits one of his friends. In order to teach him that hitting is wrong, you are going to hit him? That doesn't make sense to me.