To Cease or to Continue, that is the Question

[Bible Highlighter]

No idea; you'd have to question every Christian who has ever received a prophecy.
There used to be a prophecy board in this forum. It's been closed now, but people wre giving, and receiving, prophesies from God.

Well, I am certainly open to the very slim possibility (in the fact I could be wrong), but I lean heavily towards what God's Word says in that prophecies will fail when the perfect comes (See: 1 Corinthians 13:8-10). I believe Scripture tells me that the “perfect” is the “perfect Law of liberty” in James chapter 1.

Now, I honestly do not know the source of the prophecies that happen today. In fact, a long while before I rededicated my life to Christ, I had a dream of a bridge collapsing and the next day I seen it on the news. I know prophecy can appear to be real, but I do not know the source of my dream. Was God the source of my dream or was it the enemy? I do not know. I am sure God signs off on everything that happens in this life (Whether bad or good), but I do not know if my dream was directly from God or not. We are told to believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world (See: 1 John 4:1).

Take no offense, but you appear to just believe every spirit instead of testing them. Just because somebody may be correct on a prophecy does not mean they are correct all the time. At the time of my life when I had my dream, I believed in Jesus, but my life was not entirely aligned with following Him but it was more stuck in the ways of this world. My life at that time was focused on worldly movies, wordly friends, and seeking to make a worldly comic book, etc.; In fact, I believe I was prodigal during this time (despite that I believed Jesus was my Savior). My life at that time was not in seeking Him every day and making Him the center of everything. I wanted the best of both worlds, but I was more in the world than in His kingdom at that time. So was my prophecy true? I am skeptical because of the life that I lived as a believer (at that time in my life).

But you have to balance that against people like Isaiah who prophesied about Jesus - many people died without seeing those prophesies come true. The Book of Hebrews says that they did not receive what they had been promised by God; but they are still commended for their faith.

I don't think Isaiah was ever in any danger of being stoned for his Messianic prophecies not coming true. I think that these kinds of prophecies were more uncertain on their timing and the Israelites realized that fact. But when a prophet says that a family member will be married or they will come into financial blessings, and that never happened in their lifetime, then.... yes, they would be stoned because the prophecy clearly failed and or did not come to pass. Many in the Charismatic movement say that error in prophecy is to be expected and or is normal. But that is not how prophecy works. Prophecy from God always comes to pass 100% of the time.

But someone could hear a prophecy or word from God and die before they could see the fulfilment.
Noah didn't build hid ark overnight. He told people that God would send rain and there would be a flood. I wonder how many people died before seeing a spot of rain, thinking, "Noah is a false prophet"?

Noah was a righteous man who clearly was of God while the whole world rested in wickedness and sin. I am sure they thought his prophecy was false but they could not see his warning from God because of their own sin. They did not believe God's Word from Noah. There are certain things that God does to make men without excuse in their rejecting His Word. The Bible is God's Holy Word and there are many evidences that it is divine in origin. Men are without excuse if they reject His Word. That is what this topic is really about. Are we following His Word in what it says? Or are we following some prophet because he got 1 or 2 prophecies correct? I prefer to follow God's Word and trust what it says over what men say.

I would encourage you to read 1 Kings 13:11-25. It talks about a man of God (a prophet) who disobeyed the Word of God because he fell for believing a false prophecy. As a result of this disobedience in trusting some other prophet over what the Word said, this man of God was killed (punished by God). His ending did not sound good at all. It reminds me of what goes on by those who trust in visions or prophecies by others over simply trusting what the Bible says alone.

 

[JohnT]

because its controversial and makes for an interesting discussion

IOW you like to go off topic.

Do you do other troll-like things here?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

IOW you like to go off topic.

Do you do other troll-like things here?

your OP is "controversial" with it ceasing or not correct ?
the same with tongues as a sign gift.
I was just following your lead

 

[JohnT]

Now, I honestly do not know the source of the prophecies that happen today. In fact, a long while before I rededicated my life to Christ, I had a dream of a bridge collapsing and the next day I seen it on the news. I know prophecy can appear to be real, but I do not know the source of my dream. Was God the source of my dream or was it the enemy? I do not know. I am sure God signs off on everything that happens in this life (Whether bad or good), but I do not know if my dream was directly from God or not. We are told to believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world (See: 1 John 4:1).

Please be assured that every word of this testimony is true, but I do not feel any more liberty to give some details except that I was below the Mason-Dixon Line.

The church I pastored is a part of a church-planting denomination. Our church was a declining church for various reasons and I saw a way to "dove tail" our needs as a declining church with a church planter who was trying to begin a church in the "seashore area" of the state having a large population of Navy personnel. We were one of several churches surrounding the state capital.

The plan was to do "telemarketing" for the new church from our church, and use the same lines (about 10 new lines) to help grow our church.

What I needed to do was convince some of the members of our church to participate, and perhaps we could disciple people from a nearby predominately black city so we could help them mature into a missionary-sending church. therefore, i went knocking on the doors of the congregation members.

One of the key couples were "Jed and Ruth Ellen Clampett", so i went to their home to start trying to get them to see the vision. Cutting to the chase:

During the visit they both left the parlor, and I saw a vision of Confederate Flag bunting (a ribbon of fabric with the stars and bars hanging like a series of UUUUU hanging from the ceiling. I knew that it was not real, and I also knew from my mental health days that schizophrenics often see things.

This was not a delusion, nor was it real, so I really became scared. I was wondering if somehow I was having a schizophrenic event. I left the home ASAP. Our efforts failed.

Later on, I was talking with an elder from another of our churches in the Capitol area, and in his southern drawl said to me "Do you know that Jed and Ruth Ellen Clampett are KKK?

In the snap of a finger, I realized that the vision came from Holy Spirit, and He was trying to give me that message. That is how it worked for me.

In the same church, speaking outside of the parsonage, Holy Spirit revealed to me that the man standing in front of me incested his oldest daughter who was a freshman in college. He was then grooming his 11 years-old daughter.

My reaction was to take a knee on the grass, and wretch. Now you know why I gave few details. But these are not the only things that Holy Spirit revealed at different times. When I shared them with my wife that thus and such would soon happen, she said, John, you are scary".

Can I find verses in Scripture that support such things as I described? Not exactly. But at the same time, I cannot dismiss them. Thus, I have to file them in my mental file system as "True, but not in my Systematic Theology folder.

My take away from this is that God sovereignly teaches and directs His pastors, but not in an exclusive manner. For example, have you ever heard a pastor say after a sermon, "I do not know why I said thus and such."? He is actually saying that Holy Spirit stopped him from saying what he had prepared, and gave him the words that the church needed to hear. When that happens to me, it is a "What is going on?" sort of moment. You know you are saying something from God, and you cannot stop saying it. As my wife stated, "That is scary".

So, that is the reason why I take the position that I do; nevertheless the gift just keeps on going.

Due to a life-sucking service-connected permanent disease, I can no longer preach or teach as I once did. But as Elders, we meet before church to discuss and pray. I mentioned that I felt concerned that due to certain changes we were making in that particular Sunday's worship service that one change-resistant member would leave.

Fifteen minutes into the service, he was out the door. He told another Elder that he was tired of "too much change" on his way out. There are more unimportant details to this, but for me, it was another time that Holy Spirit said it was going to happen, and independently, he did it.

Therefore, not finding any evidence of the "perfect thing" (and it is surely NOT the Bible) which is to come, I cannot find evidence of cessation of any of the gifts of Holy Spirit.

Nor can I explain how or why such things come to me, all I can say with certainty is that those things do not lie, and that God caused me to see those things before they happened in real time. Yep, that is indeed scary.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

John thanks for sharing !

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Please be assured that every word of this testimony is true, but I do not feel any more liberty to give some details except that I was below the Mason-Dixon Line.

The church I pastored is a part of a church-planting denomination. Our church was a declining church for various reasons and I saw a way to "dove tail" our needs as a declining church with a church planter who was trying to begin a church in the "seashore area" of the state having a large population of Navy personnel. We were one of several churches surrounding the state capital.

The plan was to do "telemarketing" for the new church from our church, and use the same lines (about 10 new lines) to help grow our church.

What I needed to do was convince some of the members of our church to participate, and perhaps we could disciple people from a nearby predominately black city so we could help them mature into a missionary-sending church. therefore, i went knocking on the doors of the congregation members.

One of the key couples were "Jed and Ruth Ellen Clampett", so i went to their home to start trying to get them to see the vision. Cutting to the chase:

During the visit they both left the parlor, and I saw a vision of Confederate Flag bunting (a ribbon of fabric with the stars and bars hanging like a series of UUUUU hanging from the ceiling. I knew that it was not real, and I also knew from my mental health days that schizophrenics often see things.

This was not a delusion, nor was it real, so I really became scared. I was wondering if somehow I was having a schizophrenic event. I left the home ASAP. Our efforts failed.

Later on, I was talking with an elder from another of our churches in the Capitol area, and in his southern drawl said to me "Do you know that Jed and Ruth Ellen Clampett are KKK?

In the snap of a finger, I realized that the vision came from Holy Spirit, and He was trying to give me that message. That is how it worked for me.

In the same church, speaking outside of the parsonage, Holy Spirit revealed to me that the man standing in front of me incested his oldest daughter who was a freshman in college. He was then grooming his 11 years-old daughter.

My reaction was to take a knee on the grass, and wretch. Now you know why I gave few details. But these are not the only things that Holy Spirit revealed at different times. When I shared them with my wife that thus and such would soon happen, she said, John, you are scary".

Can I find verses in Scripture that support such things as I described? Not exactly. But at the same time, I cannot dismiss them. Thus, I have to file them in my mental file system as "True, but not in my Systematic Theology folder.

My take away from this is that God sovereignly teaches and directs His pastors, but not in an exclusive manner. For example, have you ever heard a pastor say after a sermon, "I do not know why I said thus and such."? He is actually saying that Holy Spirit stopped him from saying what he had prepared, and gave him the words that the church needed to hear. When that happens to me, it is a "What is going on?" sort of moment. You know you are saying something from God, and you cannot stop saying it. As my wife stated, "That is scary".

So, that is the reason why I take the position that I do; nevertheless the gift just keeps on going.

Due to a life-sucking service-connected permanent disease, I can no longer preach or teach as I once did. But as Elders, we meet before church to discuss and pray. I mentioned that I felt concerned that due to certain changes we were making in that particular Sunday's worship service that one change-resistant member would leave.

Fifteen minutes into the service, he was out the door. He told another Elder that he was tired of "too much change" on his way out. There are more unimportant details to this, but for me, it was another time that Holy Spirit said it was going to happen, and independently, he did it.

Therefore, not finding any evidence of the "perfect thing" (and it is surely NOT the Bible) which is to come, I cannot find evidence of cessation of any of the gifts of Holy Spirit.

Nor can I explain how or why such things come to me, all I can say with certainty is that those things do not lie, and that God caused me to see those things before they happened in real time. Yep, that is indeed scary.

Most Cessationists do not believe ALL of the gifts have ceased. Most of them are referring to the sign gifts (like healing, prophecy, tongues). I believe discernment or warnings or insights about others is a gift that continues. But I do not believe prophecy is included in that because that would mean we would have to add new prophetic writings to the end of our Bible. I also do not believe God wants us to write down any knew revelatory knowledge, and tack it onto the back our Bible, either.

Side Note:

This is why I prefer to call myself a Partial Cessationist.

Side Note 2:

Oh, and I believe prophecy deals with foretelling future events.

 

[Strong in Him]

Well, I am certainly open to the very slim possibility (in the fact I could be wrong), but I lean heavily towards what God's Word says in that prophecies will fail when the perfect comes (See: 1 Corinthians 13:8-10). .

Absolutely.
But you are interpreting "the perfect" as being the Bible; I'm not.

In 1 Corinthians 12 Paul has been talking about the gifts of the Spirit; how one is not greater than the other, how were are all members of one body and all need each other. Paul begins chapter 13 by saying "now I will show you the best way of all", and lists all the qualities of love; patient, kind, not rude etc. In 1 Corinthians 13:8 he says that love never fails - that is why it is the best way of all. Compared with this prophecies will cease, tongues will be stilled and knowledge will pass away. The Corinthians valued those gifts highly; prophecy and tongues were outward gifts and possibly made them appear more spiritual, probably why he discusses them both in 1 Cor 14. And there were false teachers going around saying that unless you have special knowledge you would not be saved.
As good and valuable as these outward signs might be, says Paul, they will not last forever - whereas love will.

Now, I honestly do not know the source of the prophecies that happen today. In fact, a long while before I rededicated my life to Christ, I had a dream of a bridge collapsing and the next day I seen it on the news. I know prophecy can appear to be real, but I do not know the source of my dream. Was God the source of my dream or was it the enemy?

I've no idea why the enemy might want to give you forewarning of a local/national event, and I'm not sure that those who belong to Christ can be contacted directly by the devil in that way. I suppose the devil might want you to think that you're psychic so that you will turn to fortune telling/the occult; I don't know. But I don't think that was a prophecy, since you didn't proclaim to anyone that God had told you it would happen.

Take no offense, but you appear to just believe every spirit instead of testing them.

Not at all.
I've read several books by RT Kendal, and others, in which they mention words of prophecy that were given and then came to pass. If you're saying that I shouldn't believe what Christian writers, clergy, evangelists and teachers tell me, I disagree; none of us would ever believe, or learn, anything.
There was one time when my church had a day of prayer and someone said they had received a word from God. After further prayer, discussion and discernment, the conclusion was that it was a word from God for that church. I was rather unwell at that time, so I wasn't directly involved - but the word from God was printed out and circulated.

Just because somebody may be correct on a prophecy does not mean they are correct all the time.

I never said they were.
I've heard of people being given prophesies from God, which were one off events - i.e they may never have received a word again and prophecy might not even be their gift. But in that place at that time; God spoke through them.

At the time of my life when I had my dream, I believed in Jesus, but my life was not entirely aligned with following Him but it was more stuck in the ways of this world.

Yes but a dream isn't necessarily a prophecy.
A prophecy would be if you had had that dream, prayed and believed it was from God and then gone and told someone - so that people were warned and did not use the bridge. Or if you had stood up and said "so that you believe in the power of God, this bridge will collapse tomorrow". Prophecies are words from God for a purpose - often to urge people to repent. A prophecy is not spiritual fortune telling, or God showing you the future just for the fun of it.

So was my prophecy true?

If you are talking about your dream; it happened, so it was true.
Whether or not it was from God, and what the purpose might have been in showing you that event; I have no idea.

The teaching of the Bible is that you don't have to be "good enough", or even a believer, to be used by God.
God used pagan countries to punish his people.
He used a donkey to speak to one of his prophets, and a storm, a big fish and a worm to rebuke another.
A Jewish high priest said "it is better for one man to die for the people than for the whole nation to perish", John 11:50. This was not his own thought, John said that he prophesied, John 11:51-52.

I don't think Isaiah was ever in any danger of being stoned for his Messianic prophecies not coming true. I think that these kinds of prophecies were more uncertain on their timing and the Israelites realized that fact.

Maybe - but I think many would have heard them and later thought, "this hasn't come to pass."
It has been said that if the words of a prophet do not come to pass, they are a false prophet. I'm saying that sometimes that can only be seen with hindsight.

Noah was a righteous man who clearly was of God while the whole world rested in wickedness and sin. I am sure they thought his prophecy was false but they could not see his warning from God because of their own sin.

Yes; the whole point is that sometimes people hear words of prophecy but that they themselves die before those things come to pass. So they might well have died thinking "that person was a false prophet", when that is not at all the case.

Are we following His Word in what it says? Or are we following some prophet because he got 1 or 2 prophecies correct? I prefer to follow God's Word and trust what it says over what men say.

Yes.
And God's word says that prophesies WILL cease, but doesn't say when. I am saying that as I have heard, and read about, prophecies being given today; they haven't yet disappeared.

 

[Butch5]

But we know that prophecy is included with tongues among the things that are in part that should be done away (involving the perfect coming).

8 “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” (1 Corinthians 13:8-10) (KJB)​

Love (Charity) never fails, but prophecy and tongues will when the perfect is come. The perfect cannot be Paul's writings because Revelation (Which is prophecy) needed to be completed.

I didn't say the perfect was Paul's writings. I said Paul had received the whole council of God. It is my contention that "The whole council of God" is that which is perfect or mature or complete.

I think we're on two different pages on this prophecy idea. When Paul said prophecies will end, he was referring to spiritual gifts. I don't think He was saying prophecy, as in God speaking to man, will end, rather the gift of prophecy that was given to believers as sign would end

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Since the gifts are God operating through our faith,

If you don't believe a gift is possible, guess what?

 

[Guojing]

Since the gifts are God operating through our faith,

If you don't believe a gift is possible, guess what?

Do you think Bethel church did believed that Olive would rise from the dead, when they appealed to John 11:25-26 in #wakeupolive?

The tragedy of Bethel's #WakeUpOlive: Why it isn't always God's will to heal - Premier Christianity

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Bill Johnson is a WOF false teacher.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Do you think Bethel church did believed that Olive would rise from the dead, when they appealed to John 11:25-26 in #wakeupolive?

The tragedy of Bethel's #WakeUpOlive: Why it isn't always God's will to heal - Premier Christianity

There's a certain quality of faith that was was more common after the death and resurrection of Jesus. As the generations passed this quality of faith became less common.

As Jesus taught in the gospels, the amount of faith is not the issue. Even if you have a small amount of the right kind of faith anything can happen.

Nowadays, this kind of faith is rare, it's no one's fault - just a sign of our times.

 

[Guojing]

There's a certain quality of faith that was was more common after the death and resurrection of Jesus. As the generations passed this quality of faith became less common.

As Jesus taught in the gospels, the amount of faith is not the issue. Even if you have a small amount of the right kind of faith anything can happen.

Nowadays, this kind of faith is rare, it's no one's fault - just a sign of our times.

Didn't Jesus said all it took was faith the size of a mustard seed?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Didn't Jesus said all it took was faith the size of a mustard seed?

No faith the quality of a mustard seed.

This was because they didn't have a lot of faith, so He said this to encourage them. The type of faith that grows from a small seed into a tree that shelters and feeds. It kind of reminds me of Isaiah 58 in a way.

 

[Strong in Him]

No faith the quality of a mustard seed.

Matthew 17:20
Luke 17:6

He says nothing about the quality of faith.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Matthew 17:20
Luke 17:6

He says nothing about the quality of faith.

Faith as a grain of mustard seed speaks of the quality of the faith.

In anycase, it's not cessation, it's faithlessness.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Mark 6
4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

So what has happened is that the whole world has become like the hometown of Jesus. This is also a factor. It's not so much a cessation, it's a reflection of the question Jesus asked and the implied reality.

Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? (Luke 18:8)

As I said in my initial post, it's a sign of the times not a cessation.

 

[Strong in Him]

Faith as a grain of mustard seed speaks of the quality of the faith.

That's your interpretation.
I daresay it's possible to get mustard seeds that have been damaged in some way and will not grow. They are still mustard seeds and very small.

In anycase, it's not cessation, it's faithlessness.

Agreed. I was just challenging the fact that you posted an interpretation and said that it is Scripture.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

That's your interpretation.
I daresay it's possible to get mustard seeds that have been damaged in some way and will not grow. They are still mustard seeds and very small.



Agreed. I was just challenging the fact that you posted an interpretation and said that it is Scripture.

However, it is also said about faith that if someone prays and doubts, we are not to let them think they will receive anything at all. There is a quality for sure. I just see that in the passage and this observation is uncommon.

In the same way, if we doubt when praying, it is like the damaged mustard seed.

 

[Guojing]

However, it is also said about faith that if someone prays and doubts, we are not to let them think they will receive anything at all. There is a quality for sure. I just see that in the passage and this observation is uncommon.

In the same way, if we doubt when praying, it is like the damaged mustard seed.

When you see this, do you really think they are doubting?

And if such can be considered as doubt, who will have the right faith?