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To Cease or to Continue, that is the Question

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Strong in Him

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No more revelatory knowledge to write any new inspired Scripture would continue after Revelation. The perfect had came with the completion of the canon. The perfect Law of liberty was finished.

The perfect will be when Jesus returns, the Kingdom of God is established in its fulness and every tongue has declared that Jesus Christ is Lord.
That has not yet happened.

There is no new revelation in terms of doctrine; salvation and reconciliation to God have been brought through Christ - it is finished.
But there are plenty of personal prophecies and words for God's people today. Plenty of people say they had a prophecy/word from God that he was going to give them a certain job/house/partner/ministry.
 
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The perfect will be when Jesus returns, the Kingdom of God is established in its fulness and every tongue has declared that Jesus Christ is Lord.
That has not yet happened.

There is no new revelation in terms of doctrine; salvation and reconciliation to God have been brought through Christ - it is finished.
But there are plenty of personal prophecies and words for God's people today. Plenty of people say they had a prophecy/word from God that he was going to give them a certain job/house/partner/ministry.

Can you say that the people who prophecy these things are 100% right or correct every time in all of their prophecies? Do they get things wrong sometimes? If so, then there are serious consequences in the OT if a prophet failed to fulfill a prophecy they made. Granted, we are not under the Old Covenant as far as executing justice is concerned, but the point here is that there were strict protocols for making sure a prophet was a true one.
 
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Strong in Him

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Can you say that the people who prophecy these things are 100% right or correct every time in all of their prophecies?

No idea; you'd have to question every Christian who has ever received a prophecy.
There used to be a prophecy board in this forum. It's been closed now, but people wre giving, and receiving, prophesies from God.

Do they get things wrong sometimes? If so, then there are serious consequences in the OT if a prophet failed to fulfill a prophecy they made.

Sometimes.
But you have to balance that against people like Isaiah who prophesied about Jesus - many people died without seeing those prophesies come true. The Book of Hebrews says that they did not receive what they had been promised by God; but they are still commended for their faith.

Granted, we are not under the Old Covenant as far as executing justice is concerned, but the point here is that there were strict protocols for making sure a prophet was a true one.

Yes, there were, and still are.
But someone could hear a prophecy or word from God and die before they could see the fulfilment.
Noah didn't build hid ark overnight. He told people that God would send rain and there would be a flood. I wonder how many people died before seeing a spot of rain, thinking, "Noah is a false prophet"?
Or how many people heard Jeremiah saying the Lord would rescue them from captivity, and 65 years later they died without seeing it happen? (the people were in exile for 70 years.)
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Prophecy adding future revelation has ceased.

Revelation 1:19
Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.

Revelation 22:18-19
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

There are no more new revelations/prophecies for the church.

hope this helps !!!
 
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JohnT

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The problem you have here is the gospels are the story of Jesus up until His Ascension. So Mark 16 is looking back upon the promise which was fulfilled early on in the church and began at Pentecost. So in reality my point still stands. There is no EPISTLE declaring tongues were still in operation after 1 Corinthians.

hope this helps !!!

From your post, I am getting another urge to make a statement about arguing from silence. The bottom line is that logically, nothing can be "proved" from silence on any particular, and that is silence is because a negative thing.

I may as well say state that I believe in unicorns (or "crypto-biology") because no biology book mentions them. in making a statement like that, I am elevating the unverifiable and subjective over concrete evidence.

Simply put, it is irrational thought. That anyone glues a plywood veneer of piety and/or Scripture to it does not make it logical, no matter how hard one wants to make his case

But we all know that unicorns do not exist, and we also know that everything that comes after Mark 8:16 most likely did not come from the writer of the rest of Mark.

To explain this further requires a brief understanding of textural criticism (meaning evaluation of the existent documents and their transmission to us today). The term "textural criticism"may be confusing, and thought of as disparaging the Bible. It is not; instead, it is an evaluation of the authenticity of this document, or that document, and there are several different criteria used.

While it is not definitive, age is important. The closer to the date of the autogrpha, the better.

It is the shortest and the earliest of the four Gospels, presumably written during the decade preceding the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Most scholars agree that it was used by Matthew and Luke in composing their accounts; more than 90 percent of the content of Mark's Gospel appears in Matthew's, and more than 50 percent in the Gospel of Luke. Although the text lacks literary polish, it is simple and direct; and, as the earliest Gospel, it is the primary source of information about the ministry of Jesus.​
"Mark, The Gospel According to." Encyclopædia Britannica. Deluxe Edition. Chicago: Encyclopædia Britannica, 2008.

The following , while not mentioning the represents "added ending" to Mark provides a valid reason for not accepting the latter verses of mark as authentic.

THE ORAL AND THE WRITTEN GOSPELS.—
We may fairly take the following conclusions as established. That the apostles of Christ felt it to be their main duty to preach Christ, not to write about Him; that they were disposed to speak rather than to write, by character, by habit, by all the influences of their time and race: That, consequently, the original Gospel was rather an oral tradition than a written book: That this oral tradition was historic, setting forth in a lively and natural way the things which Jesus said and did: That it was the theme and substance of their Discourses and of their Epistles: That the constant delivery of this oral Gospel was a Divine expedient for teaching them what of all they remembered concerning Christ was most potent on the hearts and minds of men, and so for securing a more perfect written Gospel when the time for writing had come: That in the four written Gospels—four and yet one—we have a record of the deeds and words of Christ in the fullest accord with the message originally delivered by the apostles: And that whosoever believes in the blameless life and beneficent ministry of Christ, in His death for our sins, and in His resurrection as the crowning proof of life everlasting, holds a true and adequate Gospel.​
(S. Cox, D.D.)

Exell, J. S. (n.d.). The Biblical Illustrator: St. Mark (pp. v–vi). London: James Nisbet & Co.

In other words, Exell argues that all four of the Gospels teach the life of Christ, and that the other Epistles, (excepting Revelation) teach the DOCTRINES of Christ. Thus, he is making an argument about purpose, not content.

So according to the logic of purposeful writing of EACH of the 4 Gospels, NONE of those later verses in Mark have anything to do with the actions of Jesus while on earth, nor is He mentioned there.

Therefore, the evidence of what is written, and written by 4 different authors is a heavy weight of documented evidence from which there is no escape. What exists as a pattern in all 4 of the Four Gospels is a greater evidence than what does not exist--meaning the teaching about snakes, etc. in the preponderance of early Mark documents.

So what you wrote, and I highlighted So Mark 16 is looking back upon the promise which was fulfilled early on in the church and began at Pentecost. is actually an unintentional refutation of your thesis because it focuses on the purpose of why Mark and the other Gospel writers wrote as they did.
So while it MAY seem that I am violating the "argument from silence", I am not doing that. Instead, I am arguing from the pattern of what exists, the purpose of the Gospels In the final analysis, what exists if far more persuasive than the absence of the teaching about tongues either in the Gospels, or in the other Epistles.

To use another analogy, in comparing the purpose of the Gospels with the purpose of the Epistles, you are essentially making a comparison of apples and lug nuts. :p
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Honestly I don't care about tongues, I avoid it all costs. And I'm in good company with many theologians who are cessationists.

FWIW is not essential to salvation either way. Which is why I do focus my time on salvific doctrines.

hope this helps !!!
 
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JohnT

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Revelation 22:18-19
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

Your argument fails to take into account why John repeated the phrase "this scroll" four times, and in particular created an adjective phrase "of prophecy" to clarify what he meant.

Therefore, using simple grammar, it is impossible to assume that John meant the entire Bible when he wrote that. Simply put, the grammatical nature of an adjective modifying a definite noun, this scroll prevents an interpretation such as yours, below:

There are no more new revelations/prophecies for the church.

Such a conclusion as you present is more the result of wishful thinking than it it is from grammatical analysis. My position is that God did not let John "stutter" when he wrote that. The doctrine of inerrancy of the autographs is vital if we are to form our theology on exegesis rather than the theology of our well-meaning teachers.

No, I am not "attacking you". Rather, I am explaining the reasons behind consistent application of logical and grammatical principles in studying the Bible.
 
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JohnT

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Honestly I don't care about tongues, I avoid it all costs. And I'm in good company with many theologians who are cessationists.

FWIW is not essential to salvation either way. Which is why I do focus my time on salvific doctrines.

hope this helps !!!
To whom do you reply?

The absence of a quote makes it hard to determine
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Your argument fails to take into account why John repeated the phrase "this scroll" four times, and in particular created an adjective phrase "of prophecy" to clarify what he meant.

Therefore, using simple grammar, it is impossible to assume that John meant the entire Bible when he wrote that. Simply put, the grammatical nature of an adjective modifying a definite noun, this scroll prevents an interpretation such as yours, below:



Such a conclusion as you present is more the result of wishful thinking than it it is from grammatical analysis. My position is that God did not let John "stutter" when he wrote that. The doctrine of inerrancy of the autographs is vital if we are to form our theology on exegesis rather than the theology of our well-meaning teachers.

No, I am not "attacking you". Rather, I am explaining the reasons behind consistent application of logical and grammatical principles in studying the Bible.
And this scroll is the past,present and future of the church age.
 
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JohnT

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Jesus is YHWH said:
Revelation 22:18-19
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

In case you were wondering, I was a teacher of English, once, and I do enjoy grammar. :p

But the verses above have no tenses. The verb phrases beginning with "if anyone..." are conditional statements. the statements explicated mean, "This has not happened, but should it happen, then..."

Thus, I believe that the immediate context of "this scroll", and the logical inference that it it is a statement contrary to present tense fact makes the interpretation refer only to the book of Revelation, and not to the Bible as a whole.

BTW I am not saying that you are wrong, but I am writing as forcibly as I can to explain why I believe as I do.
 
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Honestly I don't care about tongues, I avoid it all costs. And I'm in good company with many theologians who are cessationists.

FWIW is not essential to salvation either way. Which is why I do focus my time on salvific doctrines.

hope this helps !!!

To the best of my aging (diminishing?) recollection abilities, I did not mention glossalalia, nor salvation. Why bring them up?
 
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To the best of my aging (diminishing?) recollection abilities, I did not mention glossalalia, nor salvation. Why bring them up?
because its controversial and makes for an interesting discussion :)
 
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Butch5

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Nice article, your summary of what Isaiah was really saying about stammering lips and another tongue gel with what I was saying here To Cease or to Continue, that is the Question

Pity even senior pastors also used it wrongly to teach that passage to teach that tongues are how God will give us rest.

Thanks! Yeah, the gifts had a purpose. Many today don't see that. They were just something God handed out. There were for a specific reason.
 
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Butch5

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I read most of it. Pretty good. I really like the emphasis you made on how tongues (signs) were for Israel. Well, said. I agree, whole heartedly on that point. The only place we differ is on the meaning of the word “perfect.” I believe the “perfect” is the canon of Scripture. James refers to the perfect law of liberty (James 1:25). This is in context to receiving the ENGRAFTED Word (New Testament Scriptures), and being a doer of the Word (James 1:21-24). The gospel was already fully realized and preached by Paul in the early church. If the “perfect” is the gospel then that does not make any sense. The perfect had already come with the preaching of Paul (of which we clearly see in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). The canon of Scripture (the Engrafted Word, i.e. the New Testament) ended in approximately 90AD with the book of Revelation. So tongues may have ceased in 70AD, and prophecy and revelatory knowledge ceased in approximately 90AD after Revelation was completed. Revelation is all about prophecy, and so no more prophecy was to be added after that book was complete. No more revelatory knowledge to write any new inspired Scripture would continue after Revelation. The perfect had came with the completion of the canon. The perfect Law of liberty was finished.

Thanks! The reason I don't see the perfect, or the completion, as the cannon of Scripture is because Paul told the Ephesian elders that he had told them the whole of God's council.

For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. (Acts 20:27 KJV)


This indicates to me that the entirety of the message had been given to Paul by this time. Jude too speaks of the faith once delivered to the saints. This was before the book of Revelation was written. I believe this indicates that what John recorded in Revelation is additional information beyond the message.

I agree that Revelation is prophecy, however, I think what Paul was talking about is the gift of prophecy that was given to believers. John did not prophesy in Revelation, he received the prophecy from Jesus. So, I don't believe this is what Paul is referring to.
 
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Guojing

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Yeah, the gifts had a purpose. Many today don't see that. They were just something God handed out. There were for a specific reason.

Yes, I think its a popular teaching in the churches who still hold on to healing as a sign, that Jesus healed in the 4 gospels, solely because he was being kind and compassionate.

I mean, he was of course that, but he healed mainly as a sign to Israel that their Messiah has come in the flesh, as what he said to John's disciples when they asked him in Luke 7:20-23 account.

So when they combine that one-sided understanding about why Jesus healed, with the commonly used Hebrews passage that Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever, as well as Acts 10:38, they come up with a doctrine that says Jesus always want to heal you today.
 
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Butch5

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Yes, I think its a popular teaching in the churches who still hold on to healing as a sign, that Jesus healed in the 4 gospels, solely because he was being kind and compassionate.

I mean, he was of course that, but he healed mainly as a sign to Israel that their Messiah has come in the flesh, as what he said to John's disciples when they asked him in Luke 7:20-23 account.

So when they combine that one-sided understanding about why Jesus healed, with the commonly used Hebrews passage that Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever, as well as Acts 10:38, they come up with a doctrine that says Jesus always want to heal you today.

Yeah, Isaiah prophesied of the blind seeing and the deaf hearing. I agree, that's one of the problems with proof texting. People grab a passage from and there, put them together out of context, and claim some doctrine. What's sad is when people believe this and they don't see the healing, often they get angry with God or lose faith. I do believe that God does heal today, I just don't don't think He gives people that gift. I believe He heals some people through prayer. But again, that is God doing it, not a gift that someone has.
 
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Thanks! The reason I don't see the perfect, or the completion, as the cannon of Scripture is because Paul told the Ephesian elders that he had told them the whole of God's council.

For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. (Acts 20:27 KJV)


This indicates to me that the entirety of the message had been given to Paul by this time. Jude too speaks of the faith once delivered to the saints. This was before the book of Revelation was written. I believe this indicates that what John recorded in Revelation is additional information beyond the message.

I agree that Revelation is prophecy, however, I think what Paul was talking about is the gift of prophecy that was given to believers. John did not prophesy in Revelation, he received the prophecy from Jesus. So, I don't believe this is what Paul is referring to.

But we know that prophecy is included with tongues among the things that are in part that should be done away (involving the perfect coming).

8 “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” (1 Corinthians 13:8-10) (KJB)​

Love (Charity) never fails, but prophecy and tongues will when the perfect is come. The perfect cannot be Paul's writings because Revelation (Which is prophecy) needed to be completed.
 
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