To all Mormons

[skylark1]

This perhaps is the key issue. "Strictly from study", no one can believe, or know that Joseph Smith's work was of God. The things of God can only be understood by the Spirit of God. Without the assistance of the Spirit of God, people come up with their own conclusions, which is why there are multiple denominations today in Christianity. This is so basic and obvious, I cannot comprehend why so many avoid this fact.

Please seek the Spirit's guidance in knowing all truth, wherever it is to be found. You cannot hold that all Christian denominations are indwelled with the Spirit when their foundation is from dividing from the root, especially over differences of understanding doctrine. The division is contrary to the Word of God, and the Spirit will not condone that. Any spirit that says divisions are acceptable is a false Spirit, by the standard which the Word of God establishes. If that is the spirit that posesses your heart and mind, then surely it will tell you other things that are false. You are saying my beliefs are false. Until you can reconcile the issue within yourself, and what is right about the divisions in Christianity, you are not in any condition to advise me of truth vs. error.

Again the key issue here is seeking the inluence and guidance of the Spirit's voice. Those that hear and follow His voice will be one in all things.

Hi MF,

Perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote. I did not state that anyone LDS had claimed that they believed that Joseph Smith is a prophet from study alone. LDS on this thread have already discussed their belief that they have a spiritual witness that Joseph Smith is a prophet, or the BOM is true. For those LDS who claimed that their belief was also based on study, I was asking what specifically they studied about him and his writings that led them to conclude that he is a prophet.

LDS do not all believe the same things, yet you constantly attack us for the same thing. There are different beliefs among LDS concerning when Jesus became God, if God was once a man, the existance of other Gods, and a myriad of other beliefs.

Yes, I can hold that all Christians are indwelt with the Holy Spirit. You keep attacking Christianity, claiming that we do not have the Spirit of God. Yet the word of God tells us that we were sealed with the Spirit when we believed.


Ephesians 1
13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

 

[Rescued One]

Please seek the Spirit's guidance in knowing all truth, wherever it is to be found. You cannot hold that all Christian denominations are indwelled with the Spirit when their foundation is from dividing from the root, especially over differences of understanding doctrine. The division is contrary to the Word of God, and the Spirit will not condone that. Any spirit that says divisions are acceptable is a false Spirit, by the standard which the Word of God establishes. If that is the spirit that posesses your heart and mind, then surely it will tell you other things that are false. You are saying my beliefs are false. Until you can reconcile the issue within yourself, and what is right about the divisions in Christianity, you are not in any condition to advise me of truth vs. error.

Again the key issue here is seeking the influence and guidance of the Spirit's voice. Those that hear and follow His voice will be one in all things.

How incredibly sad that those who are lost remain loyal to false teachings on the premise that unity in any belief is a sign of its truthfulness. Unity does not equal truth.

Those that hear Jesus' voice will follow Him and His word instead of obeying the voices of demons and false prophets.

The LDS church is not the only church that claims only its members are on the right path. But should we follow a church or a Savior? Which will save us in the end?

1 Corinthians 13
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

There will be no Christians on milk when we see Him face to face. Till then there will always be some with more knowledge than others.

The root of Christianity is the Triune God. We are not divided in the slightest over whom we love, worship, and obey!

 

[Chaucer]

Yes, you can be (or at least could have been) excommunicated from the LDS church for not believing it's false doctrines.

First, you're playing a disingenuous word game. Mormons don't believe their doctrines are false, so even if you were correct (which you are not) that you could be excommunicated for failing to believe doctrine, it would have to be true doctrine, not false. The Church would would give strict advice against believing false doctrine.

Second, Maybe you could come up with some obscure case where someone was disciplined for some strange reason but not believing is not a reason for excommunication. Still it is your argument and thus your burden to show, but I am pretty comfortable that you cannot. Would you like a hint where to start looking?

 

[fatboys]

Hi MF,

Perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote. I did not state that anyone LDS had claimed that they believed that Joseph Smith is a prophet from study alone. LDS on this thread have already discussed their belief that they have a spiritual witness that Joseph Smith is a prophet, or the BOM is true. For those LDS who claimed that their belief was also based on study, I was asking what specifically they studied about him and his writings that led them to conclude that he is a prophet.

FB: Hi Sky. Stopping in for a sec. Those who want to gain a intellectual knowledge that Joseph Smith was a prophet, I believe must read the Book of Mormon first. If a person can read the Book of Mormon, and see the wisdom and knowledge that is in it, and they do so sincerely, I just don't see how they can not help to see that this is a work of God. There are also the teachings. The book, The teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith is another good one. Or A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, or Jesus the Christ.

LDS do not all believe the same things, yet you constantly attack us for the same thing. There are different beliefs among LDS concerning when Jesus became God, if God was once a man, the existance of other Gods, and a myriad of other beliefs.

FB: There is no difference in our doctrines. Knowing whether or not God was once a man is not a doctrine or even necessary to know or understand. I am not sure what you mean as to whether or we have different beliefs as to when Jesus was God. He is our brother and was created as we were. But knowing when Jesus was God is not important and not necessary for us to know.

Yes, I can hold that all Christians are indwelt with the Holy Spirit. You keep attacking Christianity, claiming that we do not have the Spirit of God. Yet the word of God tells us that we were sealed with the Spirit when we believed.

FB: I don't think we are attacking that you do not have the spirit of God. What we are attacking is the attempt that Mainstream Christianity interprets what salvation means. That once saved always saved. That all one needs is belief. It was not that way when Christ was on earth and not that way today. It was never intended to be that, and many misinterpret the teachings of Paul. Christ taught believed and then follow me. That is more than believe and then be sealed.

Ephesians 1
13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

FB: This is more than just believing. It is saying that having believed, or going through the trials and tribulations that many times believing includes. The Gospel requires us to live according to the principles and laws Christ lived by. Some who live as close as one can live are sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise. This guarantees them Exhaltation.

FB: To day while I was at church, I was reading Gen.. I had listened to a minister on the radio from the Church of Christ. And I was giggling over the way he describes Adam and Eve and their fall. Almost to a Tee that we believe. Anyway I was reading and remembering some of the discussions I have had here. And as I was reading, I noticed that Eve did not hear the commandment from God to not partake of the forbidden fruit. She was not created yet. Therefore her, being the first to partake, ate from second hand knowledge from Adam. Being true to her calling, she did not listen to her husband. Since Eve was not given the commandment, then she could not have sinned, since in sin one has to know the law. Just a interesting thought.

 

[Rescued One]

First, you're playing a disingenuous word game. Mormons don't believe their doctrines are false, so even if you were correct (which you are not) that you could be excommunicated for failing to believe doctrine, it would have to be true doctrine, not false. The Church would would give strict advice against believing false doctrine.

Second, Maybe you could come up with some obscure case where someone was disciplined for some strange reason but not believing is not a reason for excommunication. Still it is your argument and thus your burden to show, but I am pretty comfortable that you cannot. Would you like a hint where to start looking?

Basically, I was excommunicated for failure to believe the doctrine of your church. I had not committed adultry or murder. My home teacher asked me to write a letter requesting excommunication. Per his request, I wrote a letter asking to have my name removed from your church's records and I was excommunicated. In the written response to my letter, I was told I could set aside my tithing and pay it when I repented! Yeah, as if I'm going to "repent" of being set free in Jesus!

 

[Rescued One]

And as I was reading, I noticed that Eve did not hear the commandment from God to not partake of the forbidden fruit. She was not created yet. Therefore her, being the first to partake, ate from second hand knowledge from Adam. Being true to her calling, she did not listen to her husband. Since Eve was not given the commandment, then she could not have sinned, since in sin one has to know the law. Just a interesting thought.

1 Corinthians 15
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam (not Eve) all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Adam was not deceived. He chose to sin.

 

[Rescued One]

This is more than just believing. It is saying that having believed, or going through the trials and tribulations that many times believing includes. The Gospel requires us to live according to the principles and laws Christ lived by. Some who live as close as one can live are sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise. This guarantees them Exhaltation.

Why are you twisting Eph. 1: 13 to say something other than what it actually says?

Ephesians 1
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

 

[fatboys]

Why are you twisting Eph. 1: 13 to say something other than what it actually says?

Ephesians 1
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

FB: What does Earnest mean?

 

[RufustheRed]

Not knowing who you are or what your mission in life is, other than to be critical, I feel compelled to address the following attack. If I am wrong, in your opinion, it is based on my rather extensive period of being on the LDS side of the fence and therefore insist on gettng the "word game" in the open from the start.

First, you're playing a disingenuous word game.

It is evident for anyone who has studied the LDS faith that it is they who proclaim different meanings for evangelical words. When I was LDS, we were told that we were not trinitarian. Now the missionaries come to someone's door and say that they ARE trinitarian , but when pressed on their definition, one will discover that they aren't trinitarian at all. They are henothesist. The "word game" has been refined by those who follow Joseph Smith, Jr. It is very deceptive and essential to delineate prior to any meaningful dialogue.

Mormons don't believe their doctrines are false, so even if you were correct (which you are not)

Subjective opinions do nothing to enhance this discussion.

... that you could be excommunicated for failing to believe doctrine, it would have to be true doctrine, not false.

Why don't you go to a fast and testimony meeting and proclaim that you are LDS, but you don't believe that J. Smith was prophet of God, or the Book of Mormon is true or that the president of that corperation is not a prophet. Do that several times and see how long you will remain a member of that organization.

The Church would would give strict advice against believing false doctrine.

The entire church or some individual??? If you said you were having trouble with your testimony, how popular would you become.

Second, Maybe you could come up with some obscure case where someone was disciplined for some strange reason but not believing is not a reason for excommunication.

After serving in a Bishopric for over a year, I can only say that you do NOT know what you are talking about.

Still it is your argument and thus your burden to show, but I am pretty comfortable that you cannot. Would you like a hint where to start looking?

Your haughty attitude is one of the mahor issues that I do not miss from being associated with elitist, condescending members of those who have chosen to follow Joseph Smith, Jr. and his minions.

I will pray that you fnd the true light of saviour of the universe.

Sven

 

[fatboys]

1 Corinthians 15
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam (not Eve) all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Adam was not deceived. He chose to sin.

FB: I was just making a point. You did not get it so I will not try to explain. And sin is knowing that you are doing wrong. Since Adam had not yet partaken of the knowledge of Good and Evil, how would he know one from the other?

 

[RufustheRed]

FB: What does Earnest mean?

He is my cousin's husband!

 

[Rescued One]

FB: I was just making a point. You did not get it so I will not try to explain. And sin is knowing that you are doing wrong. Since Adam had not yet partaken of the knowledge of Good and Evil, how would he know one from the other?

Is there a possibilty that God knows more than you do?

He said, "What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;"

He said, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

He said, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

God said, "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

By one man sin entered into the world. The man was Adam. He disobeyed God. Disobedience to God is sin.

 

[Rescued One]

FB: What does Earnest mean?

In real estate transactions: The amount is negotiated between you and the seller. It is typically a small percentage of the purchase price and can vary depending upon local market conditions, the price of the property, the type of property (e.g. vacant land, existing housing, or new construction), whether cash advances to a builder or seller are involved, and other factors.

We are said to be sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, v. 13. The blessed Spirit is holy himself, and he makes us holy. He is called the Spirit of promise, as he is the promised Spirit. By him believers are sealed; that is, separated and set apart for God, and distinguished and marked as belonging to him. The Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, v. 14. The earnest is part of payment, and it secures the full sum: so is the gift of the Holy Ghost; all his influences and operations, both as a sanctifier and a comforter, are heaven begun, glory in the seed and bud. The Spirit's illumination is an earnest of everlasting light; sanctification is an earnest of perfect holiness; and his comforts are earnests of everlasting joys. He is said to be the earnest, until the redemption of the purchased possession. It may be called here the possession, because this earnest makes it as sure to the heirs as though they were already possessed of it; and it is purchased for them by the blood of Christ. The redemption of it is mentioned because it was mortgaged and forfeited by sin; and Christ restores it to us, and so is said to redeem it, in allusion to the law of redemption. Observe, from all this, what a gracious promise that is which secures the gift of the Holy Ghost to those who ask him.

 

[Rescued One]

He is my cousin's husband!

Do they live in Mayberry?

 

[RufustheRed]

FB: What does Earnest mean?

Why don't you inform us lowly Christians what "arrabon' (earnest) means in Ephesians 1:14? You do so well with rhetorical questions. If you have a problem, let me know.

Sven

Of course, you'll probably ignore my post like you have all most of my other ones when I have accepted your offers.

 

[Chaucer]

Sven, Sven, Sven,

You’ve missed the entire point. By disingenuous word game, I did not mean that Mormon do or do not employ different terminology and meaning. I meant that when the other poster said you could get excommunicated for believing false doctrine - that was a word game because to the Church that would be doing the excommunication, they would encourage, not discourage you from believing false doctrine. But then, you knew that, didn’t you.

Next, I think that you are factually wrong when you say that Mormon missionaries say that they are trinitarian. That seems simply absurd.

Does anybody here know any missionaries and could you ask them? I bet most wouldn’t know what the word meant.

Next you say that subjective opinions do nothing to enhance... Oh Sven, everyone’s opinion is subjective, yours included.

Next, you have challenged my statement that believing wrong doctrine is no an excommunicable offense by suggesting one go to a Mormon meeting and publicly preach negatively toward the church. See Sven, that would be behavior, not belief. I didn’t say anything about behavior; but you already knew that.

Lastly you say that I don’t know what I am talking about and that you, a former Mormon authority do know what you are talking about. I disagree but you are probably just the guy, as a former authority, that can prove me wrong. As a bishopric guy you undoubtedly would have received policies and procedures detailing, as you say, that believing wrong doctrine, was an excommunicable offense.

By all means, please share it with us.

Now you have just accused me of being haughty - that one paragraph or so after telling me that I didn’t know what I was talking about but that you really really did. Isn’t there a word to describe that Sven?

 

[Chaucer]

Why don't you inform us lowly Christians what "arrabon' (earnest) means in Ephesians 1:14? You do so well with rhetorical questions. If you have a problem, let me know.

Sven

Sven,

Didn't you just reprimand me for acting condescending? Some might call that incongruous.

 

[skylark1]

FB: Hi Sky. Stopping in for a sec. Those who want to gain a intellectual knowledge that Joseph Smith was a prophet, I believe must read the Book of Mormon first. If a person can read the Book of Mormon, and see the wisdom and knowledge that is in it, and they do so sincerely, I just don't see how they can not help to see that this is a work of God. There are also the teachings. The book, The teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith is another good one. Or A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, or Jesus the Christ.

Thanks for addressing the question.

There is no difference in our doctrines. Knowing whether or not God was once a man is not a doctrine or even necessary to know or understand. I am not sure what you mean as to whether or we have different beliefs as to when Jesus was God. He is our brother and was created as we were. But knowing when Jesus was God is not important and not necessary for us to know.

Mormonfriend wrote of the Spirit's guidance in all truth, and said that traditional Christians do not have the Spirit's guidance because of differences in belief. Does it really matter if it is "doctrine" or "teachings?" My point is that there are differences in beliefs among LDS.

FB: I don't think we are attacking that you do not have the spirit of God. What we are attacking is the attempt that Mainstream Christianity interprets what salvation means. That once saved always saved. That all one needs is belief. It was not that way when Christ was on earth and not that way today. It was never intended to be that, and many misinterpret the teachings of Paul. Christ taught believed and then follow me. That is more than believe and then be sealed.

My post was directed towards Mormonfriend. I stand by what I wrote concerning his accusations that traditional Christians are not led by the Spirit of God. Perhaps you should read his posts again. What you are attacking and what he is attacking might not be the same thing!

 

[Rescued One]

I meant that when the other poster said you could get excommunicated for believing false doctrine - that was a word game because to the Church that would be doing the excommunication, they would encourage, not discourage you from believing false doctrine. But then, you knew that, didn’t you.

Could you please clarify what you are saying since it is about me?

the other poster said you could get excommunicated for believing false doctrine

I was excommunicated for NOT believing false doctrine! Mormon doctrine is false doctrine.

 

[MormonFriend]

Hi MF,

Perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote. I did not state that anyone LDS had claimed that they believed that Joseph Smith is a prophet from study alone. LDS on this thread have already discussed their belief that they have a spiritual witness that Joseph Smith is a prophet, or the BOM is true. For those LDS who claimed that their belief was also based on study, I was asking what specifically they studied about him and his writings that led them to conclude that he is a prophet.

Yes Skylark, perhaps I did misunderstand. But to what avail is there to go through study issues before understanding that without the Spirit's presence and witness, the study materials can mean many things. In a 3-D movie, the picture will look fuzzy and blurry. With the designed glasses, one sees the intended picture. God hides wisdom and light from man who are ruled by the spirit of man.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 2:11)

LDS do not all believe the same things, yet you constantly attack us for the same thing. There are different beliefs among LDS concerning when Jesus became God, if God was once a man, the existance of other Gods, and a myriad of other beliefs.

I do not call it attacking. I am presenting facts as I understand them. Tossing you a rope or lifeline is not attacking. That is what I perceive. You may tell me why my rope is not strong or flawed, but please do not imply that I am attacking you.

You are correct that LDS members do not always believe the same things. And this fits perfectly in with what my implications are. Not all LDS have aligned their will or submissiveness to the Father. Those are corrections that we make everyday. The understanding we receive is like anyone else. It comes line upon line and precepte upon precept, as we make personal corrections to our stubborn and pridefull hearts (as is the case with all of mankind). That was always part of the plan of our Heavenly Father, to give us further light and knowledge as we were prepared to receive it.

The important factor is that LDS do not divide from the root church, which teaches the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. With time, patience, and enduring the refiners fire, those that misunderstand doctrine can come to the correct understanding. Not all will do so.

If I may make it clear now. It is the divisions in Christianity that I see, in fact, as being evidence that the Holy Spirit did not, nor could not have followed with those divisions. People having different views or beliefs is to be expected because we expect the perfection process to be applied to imperfect people.
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

(New Testament | Ephesians 4:11 - 13)