To all Mormons

[Breetai]

My first experience with Mormonism was when I approached a pair of missionaries and asked them about what they believed. All I knew going in was that the Mormons believed 'different things' then my church did. For all I knew, they were just another denomination. In our meetings, I was told to pray Moroni's prayer. I read though the ENTIRE Book or Mormon and thought that maybe it could be true. It sure sounded cool; that Jesus was in America and that Hebrews sailed to America hundreds of years before Christ. I prayed that prayer in Moroni after reading the BoM with all of the sincerity that I had. I fully expected to feel the 'burning in the bosom'; the confirmation of the Holy Ghost that this book was really the true word of God along with the Bible. Well, I never did experience this warm burning or any other nice feeling. I'd been praying fevery night for a couple of weeks about the BoM. "God, if this book really is true the please confirm it for me!", I would pray. What I recieved was an insanely strong conviction to study Mormonism. Well, I've been studying Mormonism for years now. You all know what I've very strongly concluded.

 

[Wrigley]

My first experience with Mormonism was when I approached a pair of missionaries and asked them about what they believed. All I knew going in was that the Mormons believed 'different things' then my church did. For all I knew, they were just another denomination. In our meetings, I was told to pray Moroni's prayer. I read though the ENTIRE Book or Mormon and thought that maybe it could be true. It sure sounded cool; that Jesus was in America and that Hebrews sailed to America hundreds of years before Christ. I prayed that prayer in Moroni after reading the BoM with all of the sincerity that I had. I fully expected to feel the 'burning in the bosom'; the confirmation of the Holy Ghost that this book was really the true word of God along with the Bible. Well, I never did experience this warm burning or any other nice feeling. I'd been praying fevery night for a couple of weeks about the BoM. "God, if this book really is true the please confirm it for me!", I would pray. What I recieved was an insanely strong conviction to study Mormonism. Well, I've been studying Mormonism for years now. You all know what I've very strongly concluded.

Yes, it's very clear what you've concluded. Some don't like your conclusions.

I've been enriched by your posts. Keep up the good work.

 

[skylark1]

there is another variable or potential that I see. In our faith we were with God in the pre-earth life. We received forordination pertaining to the experiences we would have. This is my perception of our forordinations, I have not read this in any Church materials, and this is not Church doctrine. Not all spirit were willing to take the responsibilities that are associated with knowledge given. "Where much is given, much is expected" is a phrase well known to LDS. It may very well be that not all were for-ordained to receive a witness from the Holy Ghost about the Restoration.

Of course, you do not take stock in our eternal nature and pre-earth existance, but what you are asking should be weighed by the full picture of our beliefs, if one is to ascertain if our pieces fit together.

So there may well be other reasons besides insincerity and repentance that keeps people from receiving the answer from the Holy Ghost.

MF,

Is this similar to another "non-doctrinal" belief LDS have that blacks of African descent were "less valiant" in a pre-earth existence? Or this the belief that someone stated previously on this board that those born into LDS families were more righteous in a pre-earth existence?

This belief contradicts scripture.



Romans 2
9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

Luke 11
10For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
11"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?


If the BOM was true, then everyone that asked would receive knowledge in some form that it was true. Many people have stated that they have not, or that they have came to other conclusions.

 

[GOD'S ARMY]

If the BOM was true, then everyone that asked would receive knowledge in some form that it was true. Many people have stated that they have not, or that they have came to other conclusions.

There are other forces involved. A man with a hardened heart will probably not feel the Holy Ghost telling him it is true. I believe the Holy Ghost is trying to help us all, but many will not hear it. They cannot, because they lack faith. This is the lesson that we learn from Laman and Lemuel of the BoM. God cannot force us to recieve his spirit. Satan's influence is real. He will cast doubt in our minds and if we cease prayer over these things he will win.

 

[MormonFriend]

there is another variable or potential that I see. In our faith we were with God in the pre-earth life. We received forordination pertaining to the experiences we would have. This is my perception of our forordinations, I have not read this in any Church materials, and this is not Church doctrine. Not all spirit were willing to take the responsibilities that are associated with knowledge given. "Where much is given, much is expected" is a phrase well known to LDS. It may very well be that not all were for-ordained to receive a witness from the Holy Ghost about the Restoration.

Of course, you do not take stock in our eternal nature and pre-earth existance, but what you are asking should be weighed by the full picture of our beliefs, if one is to ascertain if our pieces fit together.

So there may well be other reasons besides insincerity and repentance that keeps people from receiving the answer from the Holy Ghost.

MF,

Is this similar to another "non-doctrinal" belief LDS have that blacks of African descent were "less valiant" in a pre-earth existence? Or this the belief that someone stated previously on this board that those born into LDS families were more righteous in a pre-earth existence?

This belief contradicts scripture.



Romans 2
9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

Luke 11
10For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
11"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?

Skylark, I made mention of the origin of my "hypotheses." It is based on things which are taught in our faith, but the concept that we made choices in the pre-earth life not to receive certain knowledge, I take responsibility for that. We know that the Truth will make us free. I believe the opposite or reciprocal can be true. The Truth can enslave us, ... if we are not faithful to the Truth we have been given. If we realized that we would rebel against light when it was given, that light and knowledge would condemn us. We also realized that without that light and knowledge, combined with our obedience to it, we could not live in the presence of the Father.

Because of Heavenly Father's love for us, He has prepared different glories of resurrection, each glory being governed by the light and truth that we are willing to hold to. The fullness of glory is where the Father lives. If we choose not to abide by those laws, the very laws that actually govern and establish the surroundings and conditions found there, our presence there would unravel the very foundation of that glorious kingdom. Therefore, there is a kingdom prepared for us that we will not unravel, and we will experience joy and happiness to the capacity that we dictate by our free will. We will not be with the Father, but His Spirit is present.

I meant to express another potential, related as to why many do not receive an answer from the Holy Ghost, besides the issue that we chose not to have His witness. I believe there were many who were greedy in nature, and exercised their free will to choose to receive light and knowledge that God knew they would rebel against. Because God cannot make us choose right, many people chose to receive knowledge which has condemned them. Judas, for example, was a special witness of Jesus Christ. It was fortold many years before Judas was born, that he would betray the Christ and become perdition.

So, actually we have no way of knowing who was "more righteous" than another. Think about the justice and equity of this. You proposed that God does not show favoritism. The doctrine that we made these choices ourselves negates favoritism on God's part. Yet in Christianity, we were all created from nothing, where everything that we are is the result of what God made us to be. Now that breeds "favoritism."

If the BOM was true, then everyone that asked would receive knowledge in some form that it was true. Many people have stated that they have not, or that they have came to other conclusions.

I think there is assumption where you said "would receive." That is precisely the problem. God may give the answer in "some form," but not everything given is received.
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
(New Testament | Matthew23:37)

 

[skylark1]

Skylark, I made mention of the origin of my "hypotheses." ................

MF,

Would you care to answer my question?

"Is this similar to another "non-doctrinal" belief LDS have that blacks of African descent were "less valiant" in a pre-earth existence? Or this the belief that someone stated previously on this board that those born into LDS families were more righteous in a pre-earth existence?"
​

 

[skylark1]

Skylark, I made mention of the origin of my "hypotheses." It is based on things which are taught in our faith, but the concept that we made choices in the pre-earth life not to receive certain knowledge, I take responsibility for that. We know that the Truth will make us free. I believe the opposite or reciprocal can be true. The Truth can enslave us, ... if we are not faithful to the Truth we have been given. If we realized that we would rebel against light when it was given, that light and knowledge would condemn us. We also realized that without that light and knowledge, combined with our obedience to it, we could not live in the presence of the Father.

There is Biblical support for the belief that the truth will set us free.

John 8

32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."


​

Care to show support from the Bible your belief that the truth can enslave us? Jesus is the truth.

John 14

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


​

Light and knowledge does not condemn us. Denying Jesus Christ is what will bring condemnation.

John 3

18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.


​

Because of Heavenly Father's love for us, He has prepared different glories of resurrection, each glory being governed by the light and truth that we are willing to hold to. The fullness of glory is where the Father lives. If we choose not to abide by those laws, the very laws that actually govern and establish the surroundings and conditions found there, our presence there would unravel the very foundation of that glorious kingdom. Therefore, there is a kingdom prepared for us that we will not unravel, and we will experience joy and happiness to the capacity that we dictate by our free will. We will not be with the Father, but His Spirit is present.

MF, do you abide by every law? Do you ever sin? If you are less than perfect because of your sin, how do you expect to abide with God the Father without "unraveling the very foundation of his kingdom?"





I fully expect to be with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit for eternity. I agree that only the righteous can enter God the Father's presence. When we believe, when we have faith in Jesus, God counts it as righteousness.

Philippians 3

8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.


Romans 4

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.



​

I meant to express another potential, related as to why many do not receive an answer from the Holy Ghost, besides the issue that we chose not to have His witness. I believe there were many who were greedy in nature, and exercised their free will to choose to receive light and knowledge that God knew they would rebel against. Because God cannot make us choose right, many people chose to receive knowledge which has condemned them. Judas, for example, was a special witness of Jesus Christ. It was fortold many years before Judas was born, that he would betray the Christ and become perdition.

Hellooo. Those who are in Christ have been sealed with the Holy Spirit. They have not "chosen" to not receive a witness of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Spirit teaches me, guides me, comforts me, and convicts me.


I am sure that the other posters on this board, especially those who have read the BOM, prayed about it and did not feel that it was confirmed t be true, delight in hearing you tell your theories of how it might have been because they were too greedy in nature.

So, actually we have no way of knowing who was "more righteous" than another. Think about the justice and equity of this. You proposed that God does not show favoritism. The doctrine that we made these choices ourselves negates favoritism on God's part. Yet in Christianity, we were all created from nothing, where everything that we are is the result of what God made us to be. Now that breeds "favoritism."

God gave us free will. He did not create robots. We have discussed this before, and I don't want to go off on that tangent in this discussion.

I think there is assumption where you said "would receive." That is precisely the problem. God may give the answer in "some form," but not everything given is received.
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
(New Testament | Matthew23:37)

How much clearer did Jesus need to make it?

Luke 11

10For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.






​

 

[Frankie]

There are other forces involved. A man with a hardened heart will probably not feel the Holy Ghost telling him it is true. I believe the Holy Ghost is trying to help us all, but many will not hear it. They cannot, because they lack faith. This is the lesson that we learn from Laman and Lemuel of the BoM. God cannot force us to recieve his spirit. Satan's influence is real. He will cast doubt in our minds and if we cease prayer over these things he will win.

And what of the people who have "a heart of gold", who live only to love and serve the Lord and care for their fellow man, yet they still get the answer that the lds chuch is not "true" and that the lds BofM is not a true book of God? Are these people still considered "hard hearted" by lds because they do not accept the lds teachings as true?

Frankie

 

[Visage of Glory]

If the BOM was true, then everyone that asked would receive knowledge in some form that it was true. Many people have stated that they have not, or that they have came to other conclusions.

What about the Bible? Not all that I have read it have accepted it as truth. Does that make it not true?

 

[Visage of Glory]

If the BOM was true, then everyone that asked would receive knowledge in some form that it was true. Many people have stated that they have not, or that they have came to other conclusions.

Edit: Double Post

 

[Frankie]

What about the Bible? Not all that I have read it have accepted it as truth. Does that make it not true?

Hi VofG. It is the LDS that make the claim that if you read the BofM with a "true intent" and pray about itm, you will recieve the answer that it is "true". Christians don't make that claim about the Bible, that is why the same can not apply.

Would you mind answering my question in my previous post? Thanks

 

[Visage of Glory]

Hi VofG. It is the LDS that make the claim that if you read the BofM with a "true intent" and pray about itm, you will recieve the answer that it is "true". Christians don't make that claim about the Bible, that is why the same can not apply.

Would you mind answering my question in my previous post? Thanks

Yeah, I will. Just answer me this question. How then do people understand the Bible to be true? And why does it not work for everyone?

 

[Visage of Glory]

And what of the people who have "a heart of gold", who live only to love and serve the Lord and care for their fellow man, yet they still get the answer that the lds chuch is not "true" and that the lds BofM is not a true book of God? Are these people still considered "hard hearted" by lds because they do not accept the lds teachings as true?

I like Skylark's scripture.

Luke 11

10. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

And yet, one must still go through that door. They recieve an answer, but that does not mean they accept it. They find the what they are seeking, but that does not mean they will take it with them.

Indeed, I don't think righteousness has anything to do with understanding this truth. As the Scripture says in James "giveth to ALL men." However, I think it is likely that there are many, who while are righteous, who have a "heart of gold." But there heart is still hardened; they do not accept the answer that the Lord tries to give them. The Spirit descends upon their heart and mind to deliver the answer, but they resist it. They might be an excellent person, but still refuse to enter that door. However, it is perfectly reasonable for a terrible sinner to ask, to knock, and to have that door opened for him, and have him accept the answer and walk through that door. The heart may be black, but it is not as hard as those that refuse to accept it.

 

[skylark1]

I like Skylark's scripture.

Luke 11

10. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

And yet, one must still go through that door. They recieve an answer, but that does not mean they accept it. They find the what they are seeking, but that does not mean they will take it with them.

Indeed, I don't think righteousness has anything to do with understanding this truth. As the Scripture says in James "giveth to ALL men." However, I think it is likely that there are many, who while are righteous, who have a "heart of gold." But there heart is still hardened; they do not accept the answer that the Lord tries to give them. The Spirit descends upon their heart and mind to deliver the answer, but they resist it. They might be an excellent person, but still refuse to enter that door. However, it is perfectly reasonable for a terrible sinner to ask, to knock, and to have that door opened for him, and have him accept the answer and walk through that door. The heart may be black, but it is not as hard as those that refuse to accept it.

"And yet, one must still go through that door."





That is an interesting choice of words. Jesus said that He is the door.

John 10

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

​

If we are in Christ, then we have entered the door.


You assume quite a bit when you claim that if someone does not believe as you that their heart is hardened. If we are in Christ we have been given a new heart. It is what was prophesied in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 36

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.




​

 

[Visage of Glory]

"And yet, one must still go through that door."


That is an interesting choice of words. Jesus said that He is the door.

John 10

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

​

If we are in Christ, then we have entered the door.

I used a lot of other words too. Basically what I was trying to say, an open door is not going to do you any good if you don't walk through it.

You assume quite a bit when you claim that if someone does not believe as you that their heart is hardened. If we are in Christ we have been given a new heart. It is what was prophesied in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 36

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.​

​

[/QUOTE]

I would like to see where I said this, though I suppose you could infer it.

 

[MormonFriend]

MF,



Would you care to answer my question?

"Is this similar to another "non-doctrinal" belief LDS have that blacks of African descent were "less valiant" in a pre-earth existence? Or this the belief that someone stated previously on this board that those born into LDS families were more righteous in a pre-earth existence?"


​

Happy to answer.

Yes, I suppose it is a similar question, in that my view does not have direct revelation to support it. That is why I referred to it as a hypotheses. I hope you understand, when you refer to black people, that in our belief they are not singled out as being "less valient." There are many born into life who are in a "lesser valient" condition, of any race. We would need to consider multiple variables to count the possibilities here, and I'm sure there are variables we have not considered.

Regarding "the righteous" born into LDS families, I'm not sure we can use the term righteous, though I have heard it used. The level of righteousness is not known until after we are tested, and the testing is done here in this life. There were spirits, or intelligences that were more "noble." What determines "noble?" My guess is that each spirit has a certain percentage of rebellion, and a remainder percentage of humility. When one attribute out weighs the other, that would tip the scale as to their potential or "nobility." This life is, by design, meant to purge us of the rebelliousness, if we can endure the refiners fire of affliction.

But "rebellious" spirits could be born into LDS families by their choice in the pre-earth life. However, I re-emphasize that where much is given, much is expected, and they will be accountable for all blessings received, and judged according to how they "invested their talents."

 

[MormonFriend]

..... How then do people understand the Bible to be true? And why does it not work for everyone?

One must consider that in Christianity, they come up with different truths from the Bible that conflict, and have divided what once was the Body of Christ because of their different interpretations. That was the very confusion which caused Joseph Smith to ask God for himself.

Frankie says: "It is the LDS that make the claim that if you read the BofM with a "true intent" and pray about itm, you will recieve the answer that it is "true". Christians don't make that claim about the Bible, that is why the same can not apply."
Perhaps if Christians would pray with "true intent," about what is true in the Bible, they might become united Chritians as one Body. In fact, the "oneness in all things" is the evidence necessary to show that a people pray for understanding with true intent.

 

[Rescued One]

One must consider that in Christianity, they come up with different truths from the Bible that conflict, and have divided what once was the Body of Christ because of their different interpretations. That was the very confusion which caused Joseph Smith to ask God for himself.

Frankie says: "It is the LDS that make the claim that if you read the BofM with a "true intent" and pray about itm, you will recieve the answer that it is "true". Christians don't make that claim about the Bible, that is why the same can not apply."
Perhaps if Christians would pray with "true intent," about what is true in the Bible, they might become united Chritians as one Body. In fact, the "oneness in all things" is the evidence necessary to show that a people pray for understanding with true intent.

I do pray with true intent that I may grow in grace and in the knowledge of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Not all Christians are working on their thesis; some are still in kindergarten! God accepts the fact that some are still on milk. If we all had the same amount of knowledge, why would we be told to grow in knowledge?

2 Peter 3
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


If we were all in the unity of the faith, why would this unity be spoken of as a future event?


Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

 

[Rescued One]

Matthew 24
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

If any man shall teach another Christ or another gospel, His sheep will not follow. Joseph Smith taught both another Christ and another gospel.

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Galatians 1
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

 

[skylark1]

One must consider that in Christianity, they come up with different truths from the Bible that conflict, and have divided what once was the Body of Christ because of their different interpretations. That was the very confusion which caused Joseph Smith to ask God for himself.

Frankie says: "It is the LDS that make the claim that if you read the BofM with a "true intent" and pray about itm, you will recieve the answer that it is "true". Christians don't make that claim about the Bible, that is why the same can not apply."
Perhaps if Christians would pray with "true intent," about what is true in the Bible, they might become united Chritians as one Body. In fact, the "oneness in all things" is the evidence necessary to show that a people pray for understanding with true intent.

What one must understand is that the Body of Christ is made up of all Christians. Claiming that Christianity "was once the body of Christ" is a simply a false claim. What is your evidence that Christians do not pray with "true intent?" Do you claim to know their intent and their heart?

I think that when most come to Christ, they are seeking to know who Jesus is, rather than if the Bible is true. When someone comes to Christ, a hunger for God's word follows. Jesus said that his sheep hear his voice. For me, that is how it is with the Bible. It is God's revelation, His voice. There is no need to pray and ask Him if it is true.