To all Mormons

[Rescued One]

I see you "selectively" quote the "Light" verses in John 3. So let's quote the FULL verses and see what they say.

John 3:
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds• were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

As you can see, the actual Doctrine on Light isn't as Born Againer ONLY as you led us to believe.
Those who DO Right come to the Light..... So, looks like your wrong there.

No, I'm not wrong at all. Only those who are born again can do God's will.

John 12:
46 I am come a light• into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

All things of Righteousness are of the Christ, thus all those who seek after righteousness in fact seek after Him. They may be in darkness, but the closer they come to Him the less in darkness they are.
(Yes, I know a bit of an extrapolation, but it is reasonable.)

There is no righteousness at all outside of Christ. There is only condemnation. Whosoever believeth on Christ should not abide in darkness.

John 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The division is between believers and unbelievers: one group has eternal life, the other does not.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

And by the way, I don't think most Christians for lots of years ever new the Niceane Creed Trinity Doctrine that Christian's falsly use to to "separate" other Christians from them, but I'm sure they were STILL considered "Christians" by Christ.

The truth does not separate Christians from Christians; there is only one Christ. If you believe in a false Christ, you are not a Christian.

The "Saints" yes are of the Church having been adopted by Him, but clearly there are "other" Believers which ARE NOT of the Church, but who's devotion to the Christ is still acceptable.

Excuse me, but there are no saints outside of Christ's church. Saints=Believers=Followers of Christ=Christians.

As anti's they are children of the flesh, but in their Faith towards God, they are fellow Believers whom I willingly respect as the Lord has commanded, though they NOT be WITH His Latter-day Church.

You cannot be children of the flesh and children of the promise. You are one or the other.

 

[skylark1]

That scripture is the reason I said that I was entitled to hear it.



Your testimony is very powerful, and heartfelt. With no intent to steal the fire of your profound message, I too have experienced many of the things you expressed. Other items in your close encoutners with God, I yet to have those blessings.

You actually went beyond what I was asking for. No matter, I am sure you were inspired to say the things that you did. In my experience, I sense a great need to purify myself, with the Lord's help. I sense that as I attain a more pure life, those experiences I still yearn for will come, and knowledge will increase.

Who am I to deny your testimony? As LDS, "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may." (Pearl of Great Price | Articles of Faith1:11) What is sacred to you I must honor, and I do. I do not understand the foundation of your hope, for the reasons I posted pertaining to the limitations of the Holy Spirit to follow the divisions in Christianity. But I am delighted in your joy, and would not want to belittle what you find to be right.

Thank you for the efforts in your posts.

Darell

MF,

Thanks for your kind words.

You wrote that you feel a need to purify yourself, with the Lord's help. I don't think that I can purify myself, but since Jesus is my Lord, as well as my Savior, I am to abide in Christ and submit my will to his will. As I do this I become more "Christ like." I hope that I didn't leave you with the impression that I believe in grace without discipleship!


I would like to add that the "foundation for my hope" is Jesus Christ himself, not a denomination.

 

[skylark1]

I also echo your words..... LDS believe the Light of Christ is in all men, and those who honestly seek His Righteousness find at least a portion of it.
We willingly respect and honor other Believers who do much in His Name as the Lord stated, though they not be with us.
Luke 9:49-50

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.


I believe that Jesus, the true Light, "lights every man" in several ways. First, the gospel was sent to all of the world, to every people and nation. But Jesus has given light to every man in another way. Jesus created men, and gave to them the ability to reason and a conscience. God has revealed himself in His creation, and written the requirements of the law on their hearts.




Romans 2
14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)


Lee, I appreciate the tone of your post, but the change that I described that took place in me when I placed my full trust in Jesus as my Lord and Savior was much more than just my conscience. The Holy Spirit/Ghost does lead me, teach me, guide me, convict me, comfort me, create a new heart in me, and bring the peace that passes all understanding. Although I am glad to hear you say that you are willing to honor and respect believers, I hope that you will not try to make what I described something less than it is by calling it the "light of Christ," instead of acknowledging that I have been made alive in Christ, included in the body of Christ, and am guided and sealed by the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost.

 

[fatboys]

No, I'm not wrong at all. Only those who are born again can do God's will.




There is no righteousness at all outside of Christ. There is only condemnation. Whosoever believeth on Christ should not abide in darkness.

John 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The division is between believers and unbelievers: one group has eternal life, the other does not.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.




The truth does not separate Christians from Christians; there is only one Christ. If you believe in a false Christ, you are not a Christian.



Excuse me, but there are no saints outside of Christ's church. Saints=Believers=Followers of Christ=Christians.



You cannot be children of the flesh and children of the promise. You are one or the other.

FB: Can a unbeliever, who has never heard of Jesus Christ do the will of God without knowing they are doing so?

 

[Doc T]

You wrote that you feel a need to purify yourself, with the Lord's help. I don't think that I can purify myself, but since Jesus is my Lord, as well as my Savior, I am to abide in Christ and submit my will to his will. As I do this I become more "Christ like."

1 John 3:3 "And every man that hath this hope in him, purifieth himself even as he is pure."

Doc

~

 

[skylark1]

1 John 3:3 "And every man that hath this hope in him, purifieth himself even as he is pure."

Doc

~

Thanks, Doc. I guess that I was reading something different than what was intended into the usage of the word "purify." Of course, we are called to keep ourselves pure, morally straight, and to abide in Christ. But ultimately, we can only be purified by the blood of Christ.

Hebrews 9
14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God.

 

[Rescued One]

FB: Can a unbeliever, who has never heard of Jesus Christ do the will of God without knowing they are doing so?

The will of God is that you believe.

John 6
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

All unbelievers are condemned. They aren't doing God's will.

John 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Proverbs 14
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Matthew 7
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[fatboys]

The will of God is that you believe.

John 6
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

All unbelievers are condemned. They aren't doing God's will.

John 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Proverbs 14
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Matthew 7
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

FB: Suppose a person in a far away place who had never heard of Jesus, but believed in God, and did good things for his neighbors and lived a good life. Is he still condemned because he is a unbelieving person in Christ?

 

[carolbob]

FB: Suppose a person in a far away place who had never heard of Jesus, but believed in God, and did good things for his neighbors and lived a good life. Is he still condemned because he is a unbelieving person in Christ?

IMHO, no.

 

[Rescued One]

FB: Suppose a person in a far away place who had never heard of Jesus, but believed in God, and did good things for his neighbors and lived a good life. Is he still condemned because he is a unbelieving person in Christ?

Did Jesus have to come and die for our sins or not?

All have sinned. Not one person can make himself worthy of salvation.

Now tell me, did Jesus die for the fun of it?

Why ask me, an ex-Mormon, if people are condemned before they come to Christ? Don't you have access to a Bible that was translated correctly?

John 3 (KJV)
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Is there another way to be saved?

John 10
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

 

[fatboys]

Did Jesus have to come and die for our sins or not?

All have sinned. Not one person can make himself worthy of salvation.

Now tell me, did Jesus die for the fun of it?

Why ask me, an ex-Mormon, if people are condemned before they come to Christ? Don't you have access to a Bible that was translated correctly?

John 3 (KJV)
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Is there another way to be saved?

John 10
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

FB: There is only one way to be saved. That is through Christ. But that does not answer a question. Why would God have beings created who have no chance at salvation?

 

[Rescued One]

FB: There is only one way to be saved. That is through Christ. But that does not answer a question. Why would God have beings created who have no chance at salvation?

I did answer your question. Are you having trouble staying on topic?

Since you don't want to stay on topic, tell me when Satan is going to be saved. Did God create him?

 

[Visage of Glory]

Since you don't want to stay on topic, tell me when Satan is going to be saved. Did God create him?

Ah, but you see, in Mormonism, he has already forfeited his chance at salvation. He lost that in his first estate, along a 1/3 of the host.

 

[RufustheRed]

FB: There is only one way to be saved. That is through Christ. But that does not answer a question. Why would God have beings created who have no chance at salvation?

With all due respect, FB, it appears that one of your major issues is to make the infinite God fit into some little finite box. If this were possible, then perhaps you could have a god that you would consider to be totally logical by your human standards and humanly comprehensible. It just doesn't work that way. When you ask why God would do thus and so, you shouldn't be asking those of us on this forum, you should be asking God, for only He can give you the proper answer.

It is time that mankind ceases to be egocentric and become theocentric, don't you think? After all we ARE here for HIS good pleasure. He doesn't need us, we need him.

G'nite,

Sven

The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want...

 

[Rescued One]

Ah, but you see, in Mormonism, he has already forfeited his chance at salvation. He lost that in his first estate, along a 1/3 of the host.

So Mormonism, not Christianity, creates the problem?

 

[fatboys]

With all due respect, FB, it appears that one of your major issues is to make the infinite God fit into some little finite box.

FB: I disagree. You are trying to make God finite. I am just trying to understand why God says that he loves all of us, and then condemns those who, for no choice of their own, but for Gods own pleasure. This does not sound like a fair, loving, kind Father.

If this were possible, then perhaps you could have a god that you would consider to be totally logical by your human standards and humanly comprehensible. It just doesn't work that way. When you ask why God would do thus and so, you shouldn't be asking those of us on this forum, you should be asking God, for only He can give you the proper answer.

FB: Not asking for a God that fits my logical standard, but one that fits consistently the word of God.

It is time that mankind ceases to be egocentric and become theocentric, don't you think? After all we ARE here for HIS good pleasure. He doesn't need us, we need him.

G'nite,

Sven

The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want...

[/quote]

FB: He is everyones shepherd, not just yours.

 

[MormonFriend]

MF,

Thanks for your kind words.

You wrote that you feel a need to purify yourself, with the Lord's help. I don't think that I can purify myself, but since Jesus is my Lord, as well as my Savior, I am to abide in Christ and submit my will to his will. As I do this I become more "Christ like." I hope that I didn't leave you with the impression that I believe in grace without discipleship!


I would like to add that the "foundation for my hope" is Jesus Christ himself, not a denomination.

I believe we all can purify ourselves by exercising our faith and free will. If the faith in Christ is true, and if we act in submission to His will by our choice (not forced to do so by any exterior force), the result will be purification. If our lives are not becoming more pure, we need to check the quality or foundation of our faith, and allow the rebelliousness to be purged from us.
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (New Testament | 1 John 3:3)

 

[skylark1]

FB: Suppose a person in a far away place who had never heard of Jesus, but believed in God, and did good things for his neighbors and lived a good life. Is he still condemned because he is a unbelieving person in Christ?

We have not been told, but we do know that God is just. This article offers some possible answers: http://www.biblequery.org/neverheardbq.htm

Even though the entire gospel had not been revealed to them, Old Testament saints were justified by faith. It is possible those who have never heard will also be justified by faith in God according to the light that they have been given, but salvation only comes through Christ.

 

[MormonFriend]

FB: There is only one way to be saved. That is through Christ. But that does not answer a question. Why would God have beings created who have no chance at salvation?

With all due respect, FB, it appears that one of your major issues is to make the infinite God fit into some little finite box. If this were possible, then perhaps you could have a god that you would consider to be totally logical by your human standards and humanly comprehensible. It just doesn't work that way. When you ask why God would do thus and so, you shouldn't be asking those of us on this forum, you should be asking God, for only He can give you the proper answer.

With equal due respect Sven, the infinite God has revealed his attributes to us so that we might have just a clue as to what we worship, and what we shouldn't worship. He told us that He is Just. He is not a respecter of persons. Fatboys brought up a conflict of those attributes in Christianity. "Why would God have beings created who have no chance at salvation?" This question reflects the same question I have asked for months here, and many have tried to get something across to me that either makes no sense, or I am dense. If I am dense, I would appreciate the Christian Spirit of patience in finding ways to help me understand.

Your belief is that we were created from nothing. It would follow then, that everything we are is the result of what God made us to be. Free will is the same for everyone. The fact that we use it differently means that we were created differently. On that thought I second fatboys' question. "Why would God have beings created who have no chance at salvation?"

 

[skylark1]

I believe we all can purify ourselves by exercising our faith and free will. If the faith in Christ is true, and if we act in submission to His will by our choice (not forced to do so by any exterior force), the result will be purification. If our lives are not becoming more pure, we need to check the quality or foundation of our faith, and allow the rebelliousness to be purged from us.
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (New Testament | 1 John3:3)

Hi MF,

I think that Doc pointed out the same scripture. I agree that we are to submit our lives to Christ. Here is my response that I posted earlier:

I guess that I was reading something different than what was intended into the usage of the word "purify." Of course, we are called to keep ourselves pure, morally straight, and to abide in Christ. But ultimately, we can only be purified by the blood of Christ.

Hebrews 9
14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God.
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