To all athiests out there: bring it on

[notto]

Originally posted by tacoman528
Dear Notto,
The eggs may have been layed after the flood and there was a mudslide that covered them. There are many possibilities.

So then any sediment (and anything I find in that sediment) that I find below the eggs was from before the flood, right?

 

[tacoman528]

To notto's other question,
hahaha that's funny, Hovind couldn't have said that because I've definetly heard him publicly oppose it. It actually makes him quite mad, that subject I mean. And AIDS has been scientifically proven to have originated in Africa when the natives ate uncooked ape meat. I'm sorry to say that that source is invalid.

 

[tacoman528]

To notto's other question,
If that was the case, yes
If that wasn't the case, no
Keep in mind that mudslides could have happened before the flood

 

[Annabel Lee]

Listen, Tacoman. I'm glad Dr. Hovind has answered your questions. I'm glad you are happy with those answers.

I'm not.
Now how does the fact that I "Don't believe" Hovind effect you?
Does it effect your faith in any way?
Do you believe that someone can be a Christian and believe in evolution?

 

[notto]

Originally posted by tacoman528
To notto's other question,
If that was the case, yes
If that wasn't the case, no
Keep in mind that mudslides could have happened before the flood

So again, if the eggs were covered by a mudslide before the flood, then anything below them would be pre-flood, right?

 

[tacoman528]

To Annabel Lee,
The fact that you don't believe is okay, you are entitled to your own opinion. I just don't really understand why.

Nope

The question of whether your a christian or not is not determined by whether you believe in evolution or not. Its whether you believe that Jesus Christ is God and that he came to earth and died for your sins so you could go to heaven. Once you've acknowledged that and made that prayer of inviting him into your life, you're part of the family. That is the most important thing. Once you have done that, It is my, and people who believe like me, job to show you (I'm sorry for sounding intolerant) the truth.

 

[Sauron]

Originally posted by notto
So then any sediment (and anything I find in that sediment) that I find below the eggs was from before the flood, right?

I have the mental picture of six or seven fat tabby cats all in a room, playing ping-pong with an especially lively mouse.....

 

 

[tacoman528]

to notto,
once again
if that was the case, yes
if that wasn't the case, no

I hope I have answered your questions, my very demanding mother wants me to bring in a load of wood, I then have to take a shower and go to youth group. If you have anything else to say, I will be able to respond around 9:00 to 10:00 Pacific Western time during a (hopefully) open period.
I'll see everyone later

 

[tacoman528]

Thank you for your...interesting comment Sauron...

 

[lucaspa]

Originally posted by tacoman528
And AIDS has been scientifically proven to have originated in Africa when the natives ate uncooked ape meat. I'm sorry to say that that source is invalid.

I haven't seen this "proof". From what I have seen the source of AIDs is still unknown. Can you post your source, please?

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Sorry, seebs, but this guy is asking for it.

Originally posted by tacoman528

The Earth is spinning at about 1000 miles per hour and it is slowing down. Very slowly. so slowly that 6000 years ago, it wouldn't be spinning too much faster. However, at the time YOU say that dinosaurs would be walking the earth: about 200 million years ago. The centrifucal force of the spinning earth would cause those dinosaurs to fly off the earth. And if it wasn't spinning that fast to begin with, anything that could make it spin that fast would have to be so big or so fast that when impact was made, life would be eliminated from the earth.

Wrong (at least the part about dinosaurs "flying" off the Earth)

The earth is moving away from the sun. Extremely slowly. So slow that 6000 years ago, once again, no big deal. millions of years ago is, once again, a problem.

edit: Scratch that. I re-checked and I overlooked a part where they also mentioned a rate of 1.5 cm per year recession from the Sun's mass decrease (slight). However, over the course of the Earth's life, it accounts for the Earth being 67 500 km closer to the Sun 4.5 billion years ago. Of course, the Earth varies its orbit by almost 5 million km (it's slightly elliptical). So again, no problem.

Rarely are complete skeletons intact

So?

trees running through supposed millions of years worth of rock layer

See Polystrate fossils

mass amounts of marine fossils in specific areas

Reference please.

dead clams on top of mount everest

Ever hear of tectonic uplifting?

Many cultures have their own version of the flood story very similar to the bible's flood story.

You mean like the Sumerian flood myth? Very similiar to the Biblical version. Except, oops, it predates the Biblical flood myth by a thousand years or so.

huge amounts of closed clam fossils (most clams open when they die)

Reference please.

The oldes tree is 4000 years old

The Nile, Amazon, and Ganges rivers all 4000 years old

The Sahara Desert is 4000 years old

Niagra Falls is 4000 years old

Completely irrelevant. Why, if I looked hard enough I could find many things 4000 years old. Of course, I can find plenty of things older than that.

By the way, human bones are found amongst dinosaur bones all the time. They are just ignored by most science textbooks (because they think that humans lived only 1million years ago and that dinosaurs died off much earlier)

Reference please.

 

[lucaspa]

Originally posted by tacoman528
answer to your question: not all the water came from the canopy. look in Genesis 7:11. The most of the water didn't come from the sky

If the water returned to those caverns, why don't they exist?  We get very good mapping of the subsurface through the waves produced by earthquakes and underground nuclear tests.  Those caverns have to be huge, yet they don't show up even though we've looked everywhere we can look subsurface.

This is like my saying there is a couch in my living room and you search my living room and there is no couch.  You are allowed to say my statement is false.  Your underground cavern statement for the source of water for the Flood is false.

 

[lucaspa]

Originally posted by tacoman528
Dear Notto,
The answer to your first question: could be both.
If it was covered when the flood happened here is the explanation.
The rain maybe did not move the eggs but the mud could still have covered them. Maybe when the water was released from the subterrainean chambers, the mud from the earth was carried up onto the surface where the mud may have oozed over the eggs slowly, not disturbing them.

The eggs may have been layed after the flood and there was a mudslide that covered them. There are many possibilities.

Notto, you are talking about a Flood that deposited miles of sedimentary rock and carved the Grand Canyon.  Yet you are talking about a gentle flood that doesn't disturb a nest? 

Also, remember, there is sedimentary rock below the nest that has bones in it. By the Flood scenario, this sediment must also have been laid down by that same Flood.  So how did a Flood lay down the sediment, then lay down a layer on top of it that contains perfectly intact dino nests? Those nests could not have originally been there, because the layers below them were also laid down by the Flood and the whole area was water. Therefore the dinos could not have built their nests there.

Both these scenarios tell us that the dino nests could not have been laid down by either a gentle or violent Flood. There are no possibilities whereby any sort of Flood can explain the fossils.

 

[notto]

Originally posted by tacoman528
To notto's other question,
hahaha that's funny, Hovind couldn't have said that because I've definetly heard him publicly oppose it. It actually makes him quite mad, that subject I mean. And AIDS has been scientifically proven to have originated in Africa when the natives ate uncooked ape meat. I'm sorry to say that that source is invalid.

He would seem to not be completely convinced.

http://www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=articles&specific=52

You might want to email him and let him know that AIDS has been scientifically proven to have originated in Africa.

The quote I gave is from him. It is part of a book (that unfortunately is no longer available online) called "Unmasking The False Religion of Evolution" which was a book written by pro-creation writers using hovinds sermons and material as a source. You will find that a lot of Creation sites will have a link to this book, but that none of them seem to work anymore.

I guess you may choose to not believe me, but the source is pro-Hovind and is highly reference, and indeed, that quote was taken from one of his sermons (1996).

 

[lucaspa]

Originally posted by tacoman528
Though you have no idea how much I wish I could know him

I've listened to tons of his stuff. He has answered all of my questions. ... I just think that you're sick of him always answering your scientific questions ... I wish I was as great a man as Hovind. He goes all around the country bringing the truth with him, God's word.

I'm really saddened to hear you speak of Hovind this way.  I'm saddened because it means another person Hovind has conned. Hovind isn't bringing God's word; he is bringing Hovind's word.  And the fact that Hovind can't distinguish between his word and God's word is both tragic and apostasy.  Hovind should be very glad that those who commit apostasy aren't stoned anymore.

What Hovind has done is not answered our scientific questions, he has put out a bunch of falsehoods as tho they were science.  It's our job to try to show you what the scientific data really is and how Hovind has connned you.

You've already made a good start when you realize that accepting evolution has nothing to do with being Christian.  The statements of faith of Christianity don't include evolution.  Since you have done that, we can show you how Hovind is wrong without you having to fear that you will have to give up your Christianity.

 

[notto]

Originally posted by lucaspa

Also, remember, there is sedimentary rock below the nest that has bones in it. By the Flood scenario, this sediment must also have been laid down by that same Flood.  So how did a Flood lay down the sediment, then lay down a layer on top of it that contains perfectly intact dino nests? Those nests could not have originally been there, because the layers below them were also laid down by the Flood and the whole area was water. Therefore the dinos could not have built their nests there.

That is the point, the FLOOD could not have laid down the sediment both below and above these egg nests. I'm just asking you to speculate what sediment THE FLOOD laid down. Was it the sediment below the eggs or was it the sediment above the eggs because logically, it can't be both.

It sounds like you are suggesting that the eggs were laid after the flood. In this scenario any sediment from above the eggs was laid down after the flood was over and the dinosaur laid its eggs, is that correct?

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Originally posted by tacoman528
To all readers,
So now people are insulting Hovind eh?
Some are even saying that he is using me

I will tell you that I do not even know Hovind
I have shaken his hand once though.
Though you have no idea how much I wish I could know him

I've listened to tons of his stuff. He has answered all of my questions. I have not noticed an ounce of personal greed on his part. I just think that you're sick of him always answering your scientific questions so you then begin asking rediculous questions (rediculous questions defined in my first post) and he refused to answer those questions (like I do, by the way) so now you are talking trash about him. You can talk all the trash you want, about Hovind, about me, about God and the Bible. I won't do anything about it, Hovind won't do anything about it (That's what bothers you the most), but the bible sure talks about you a lot. Read II Peter 3:3

I wish I was as great a man as Hovind. He goes all around the country bringing the truth with him, God's word. Most christians wouldn't even think of going next door. I sure encourage you to visit his website at www-drdino-com because If I don't have the answers, he does, and so does the bible. (please substitute the dashes with dots on the URL address)

I hope this message cleared up any, untruths about Dr. Hovind

tacoman528, you're going to have to deal with the reality that practically everything "scientific" Hovind has claimed has been refuted (I can provide a list of sites that refute Hovind's arguments, if you like). And the only times I ever see anyone backing up Hovind's claims are from people (like yourself) who do little more than repeat what Hovind has said.

If you really want to stand up for what Hovind has taught you, then you're going to have to do better than just parroting his claims.

 

[lucaspa]

Originally posted by tacoman528

The Earth is spinning at about 1000 miles per hour and it is slowing down. Very slowly. so slowly that 6000 years ago, it wouldn't be spinning too much faster. However, at the time YOU say that dinosaurs would be walking the earth: about 200 million years ago. ...
The earth is moving away from the sun. Extremely slowly. So slow that 6000 years ago, once again, no big deal. millions of years ago is, once again, a problem.

Hovind seems to be making up new arguments.  These I haven't seen before.  Tacoman, if you are interested, Hovind's earlier arguments were refuted:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood.html



Reason's for the flood:

Reasons for a flood:
Rarely are complete skeletons intact

trees running through supposed millions of years worth of rock layer

mass amounts of marine fossils in specific areas

dead clams on top of mount everest

Many cultures have their own version of the flood story very similar to the bible's flood story.

huge amounts of closed clam fossils (most clams open when they die)

OK, let's take these in order. In order to be "proof" in science, what you have to do is falsify all the alternative hypotheses. 

There are many ways that skeletons become disarticulated (not intact).  Mostly it is because scavengers get at the carcass.  Some fossils show evidence of being buried in a flood (Dinosaur National Monument) but the rocks and features show these to be local floods.  Finally, how do you account for the fossils such as Archeopteryx that are found intact?

Someone else already gave you the answer to polystrate fossils.

When marine animals die, they settle to the bottom.  Now, if this happens year after year, you get a lot of fossils in one place.  Especially considering that most sediment strata are at least 60,000 years worth of deposits.

Clams on top of Everest actually falsify the Flood. Remember, the mobile animals like sheep and people were supposed to flee to the tops of mountains ahead of the Flood waters.  So why do we have clams on top of Everest and not any sheep, goat, horse, tiger, or elephant fossils?   The clams are there because they were deposited on the bottom of an ocean and then plate tectonics pushed those sediments up into mountains. 

Most cultures do not have a Flood story. Richard Andre did a comprehensive collection of myths about the floods. It was Die Flutsagen: Ehnthographisch Btrachtet, 1891. Andre had nearly 90 deluge traditions. Of these, 26 arose from the Babylonian story and 43 were independent. He noted a lack of deluge traditions in Arabia, Japan, northern and central Asia, Africa, and much of Europe. He concluded that not everyone had descended from survivors of a single deluge, otherwise the traditions would all have been much more identical and there would be deluge traditions in every society instead of a minority.

Reasons for the flood being 4000 years ago:

The oldes tree is 4000 years old

The Nile, Amazon, and Ganges rivers all 4000 years old

The Sahara Desert is 4000 years old

Niagra Falls is 4000 years old

The oldest trees are Bristlecone pines that are over 6,000 years old.  The rivers you mention are much older than 4,000 years.  And someone should tell the tour guides at Niagara Falls about the Falls being 4,000 years old. They have it 10,000 years old and coming into existence as the ice retreated from the last Ice Age.

By the way, human bones are found amongst dinosaur bones all the time. They are just ignored by most science textbooks (because they think that humans lived only 1million years ago and that dinosaurs died off much earlier)

Ah, so scientists are now supposed to be lying about things.  Don't you see the weakness of this argument?  You mean all the people on the digs, and all the amateur fossil hunters around, are hiding all this?  Yeah, right. 

The major "evidence" of dinos and humans is the "human" and dino tracks at Glen Rose, Texas. Even the Institute for Creation Research (another creationist organization) has declared them false.

 

[lucaspa]

Originally posted by notto
That is the point, the FLOOD could not have laid down the sediment both below and above these egg nests. I'm just asking you to speculate what sediment THE FLOOD laid down. Was it the sediment below the eggs or was it the sediment above the eggs because logically, it can't be both.

Sorry to step in on you Notto, but I felt it was time to stop toying with Tacoman and start leading him down the logical path.  It didn't look like he was going to find it on his own.

We are going to have to explicitly teach him about deductive logic.  Hovind certainly won't.  So we are going to have to take his claims, tell him we are assuming they are true, then make the deductions.  Then we are going to have to show him how the observations contradict the deductions.   Walk him step by step through the process.

 

[notto]

Originally posted by lucaspa
Sorry to step in on you Notto, but I felt it was time to stop toying with Tacoman and start leading him down the logical path.  It didn't look like he was going to find it on his own.

SSHHHH!
Now I'm going to have to report you to the Conspiracy Overlords.

Loose lips sink ships!!

Once we are done with dinosaur egg nests we can move on to the ant hills, termite nests, small animal tracks, worm tracks, and my favorite, dinosaur dung that the FLOOD has left undisturbed among the layers of sediment.

He did claim that he was prepared to answer any and all questions.