Tithing/Speaking in Tongues

[cougan]

I appreciate your openess Snup. I dont doubt you sincerty. I am not calling you liar because I can not prove or disprove what you have presented. I can stand firm in my convictions and have my view of what I belive the word of God says about speaking in tongues and miracles. My view is found on scripture and experience. Either I am wrong and sometime in the near future it will be made known to me that I am. OR either the miracles and tounge speaking you have done and seen have not really been 1st century type but have been something you have done and seen with misunderstanding thinking its the real thing. So when I ask for proof it will only take one time. I can not take a testimony that someone gives on this board at face value. In order for me to belive it has to have something to back up besides mere words. So when I ask for bonifed proof just relize that I am open to change and if I presented with something I cannot deny I will know then that my view is wrong but until that time occurs I will assume that my view is correct.

 

[SnuP]

cougan thankyou for your responce.  From you past post I have gotten the impression that you are genuinly seeking the truth, I don't believe that you would even think of calling me a lier, but Louis seems to have different motives.  None the less, my testimony's have not convinced either of you, so there is no point in continuing with them.  Because of your sincerity I have agreed, like TC, to acept your challange in this way.  I will pray that God will show you or me or another on this board what ever He will, in the way He wills.  And I will continue praying this untill the answer comes.  If you wish, I will fernish, in a PM, the phone numbers of my two friends who gave the testimony on tongues.

 

[seekingHim]

Mark 16:17 - 18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

How come we never quote the rest of it when it comes to the tongues issue? Pick up a snake lately, I know I haven't. Paul has - but I don't believe any of the other apostles did.

 

[seekingHim]

Tithing - no longer necessary. Give as God gave you .

 

[seekingHim]

"As for tongues, well I wouldn’t call anyone less of a Christian because they don’t speak in tongues although I would encourage those who haven’t received this gift to seek and ask god for it and they to will receive it when the faith to receive it is there."

                                                   -Celtic_Crusader

Do you not remember the scripture, <SUP><SUP>I Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 <I>&nbsp;Are</I> all apostles? <I>are</I> all prophets? <I>are</I> all teachers? <I>are</I> all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.</SUP>
Answer "yes" to any of these questions causes one to wonder (or it should). The proper answer is no - to all the questions in this verse.</SUP>

<SUP>I Corinthians 13:5</SUP> <SUP>I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater <I>is</I> he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.</SUP>

<SUP>Notice - its all about the edifying, not the gifts. The gifts have a purpose and its to edify, not to prove who you are in Christ. Were not the Corinthian church using their gifts boastfully and not to edify?</SUP>

I've replied to this quote because I've heard it placed to new believers almost the same - just a little twisted. Twisted enough to have new believers fumbling with speaking in an unknown tongue to the sorrow of not genuinely receiving it. If salvation is by faith, is the gift of tongues confirmation? What is the purpose of an unknown tongue but to edify? There are many gifts, but the tongue seems to be such a hot item nowadays - and the one most easily falsified. Without interpreters, isn't it easy to fake the gift of tongues and get away with it? Yes it is. Remember, Paul said the time would come when sound doctrine would not be endured. If you think people will stick out like a sore thumb so we can tell that they were not of the body, think again. Jesus said if it were possible the very elect would be deceived. He also said that the sheep and the goats or wheat and the tares would be separated at the end. Be sure to follow after love. If God wants you to have the gift of tongues, He'll give it as He will not as we will.&nbsp;

 

[LouisBooth]

"Futhermore it is also a fact that he who speaks in tongues at a public worship service may indeed interpert his own tongue."

That is not a bibilically sound statement. YOu MUST have an interpreter, you cannot interpret your own words, for at the time you can't speak where they can understand you! Please read the scriptures. 1 cor 14:27

"I presume you dont, since you are rather against tongues and those who preach it"

YOu haven't been reading my posts then. I am quite for tongues, what I am against is the misuse and unbiblicalness of what I see here as "tongues".

I have had quite a few "intimate" experiences with God in terms of this topic thanks.

"Louis I don't apreciate you calling me a lier. "

Umm..I don't think I did. I'm happy for your testimony, and I appricated you sharing it. That is not what were were talking about though and was not really proof in your point as you said there were parts that no one understood, which seems to what Paul talks about in 1 cor 14:27-28. I don't think you're a liar, please don't put words in my mouth, thanks. I do think you don't adhere to scripture about tongues from what you have told me so far though.

Any tongues should not go on in a church unless there is an interpreter. Thats just a biblical fact.

 

[SnuP]

It is only a fact in your little world.&nbsp; Don't put words in scriptures mouth.&nbsp;

If you did believe that I was being honest than you would not keep asking me to go further and further to prove my words.&nbsp; Only a person who keeps asking is one who does not believe (trying to see if the story changes).&nbsp; I'm sorry, but your disbelief is too 'in your face' to be misread.

Just come out and say, "I don't believe you.", or "I don't believe your testimony is acurate, please give me some proof."

 

[Andrew]

AMEN Snup! You hit the nail on the head.
the problem is not lack of proof or scriptures but the leaven of the Sadducees (denying the spiritual exists) & the spirit of doubting Thomas.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Futhermore it is also a fact that he who speaks in tongues at a public worship service may indeed interpert his own tongue."

That is not a bibilically sound statement. YOu MUST have an interpreter, you cannot interpret your own words,

verse 12-13

12 So it is with you.&nbsp; Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.&nbsp; 13 For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Any tongues should not go on in a church unless there is an interpreter. Thats just a biblical fact.

verse 28

28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

Speak what?&nbsp; Well speaking in tongues is the subject, and if Paul was changing the subject he would have said so(i.e. speak with his mind).&nbsp; 'So he should speak to himself and God quietly in tongues' (i.e. or pray in tongues).&nbsp; Boy was that obvious.

 

[LouisBooth]

Exactly snup and if you keep reading after verse 13 you will see that Paul says that the other man is NOT edified and thus you should not do this in public. He clarifes this even further in verse 28 when he says if you don't have an interpreter (seperate from yourself) be quiet and don't talk.

What you're doing is taking one verse and taking it out of context of the passage to prove your point. If you take it in context of the passage you will see that this type of "tongue" is not to be spoken in public at all, praying or not.

*sigh* how can you go from

"28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God"

to "'So he should speak to himself and God quietly in tongues' " ?

It says keep quite, ie DON'T TALK. the word used there is sigao and it means silence, it DON'T TALK AT ALL. Why do you insist on twisting it to say something else?

As far as an interpeter goes, you're not even looking at the verses I've giving you

In verse 27 and 28 its apparent that the speaker and the interpreter are 2 different people. One person speaks at a time, then someone interprets, then another speaks and is interpreted, it even says at the most THREE, and we haven't even gone there yet

if you want to label me a thomas, go for it, Christ explained himself to thomas very clearly and concise and thomas believed, this is something you aren't doing, so I'm not believing you're using tongues correctly.

do I believe it happened? Yes, if you say it did, then it did, do I believe it was from God, not based on what you have told me so far in accordance with scripture.

 

[Andrew]

The crux of Paul's teaching on use of tongues in a church setting can be summed up when he said:

1 Cor 14: 39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order. ...for God is not a God of chaos but order.

so if the tongues speaking in your church is causing disorder and putting non-believers off, then something ought to be done to correct it.

also, the passage is talking about speaking messages in tongues, not praying and singing in tongues. there's a difference. in my church, only the pastor speaks in tongues and interprets once in a long while. but we worship/sing/praise in tongues -- usu for only a few seconds towards the end of a song -- this is called singing in the spirit and English is used also. this does not cause any confusion or disorder, in fact, the worship is brought to a higher level, u can just feel the atmosphere change.

we dont have people standing up suddenly every now and then to speak loudly a message in tongues without interpretation (interupting the sermon -- we dont believe that the Holy Spirit who is upon the preacher preaching wld interrupt himself) and thus freaking people out. I believe Paul was addressing this kind of disorder and confusion. also where people just come to you and speak in tongues for fun or to show you how 'spiritual' they are.

 

[SnuP]

Louis Your arguement is illogical.&nbsp; Paul says to keep quiet and speak.&nbsp; You say that means to just keep your mouth shut but you are deleting the second half of the verse were Paul says to speak.&nbsp; Why would Paul say to speak if he meant to hold your tongues.&nbsp; You are so prejudice against tongues that you are willing to change the word of God.

Verse 39 says do not forbid speaking in tongues, that is exactly what you are doing.&nbsp; Paul didn't want to stop tongues from being used, but to stop them from being used in order to promote the flesh.&nbsp; A mans prayers does not count, it is a private thing.&nbsp; You step over your spiritual authority by telling someone how they are allowed to pray, this is very dangerous ground, and you are in danger of God's judgement on your life.&nbsp; "It would be better that a mill stone be tied around your neck and you be cast into the sea then to call one of these little one to stumble", etc.&nbsp; Andrew has accurately discribed how the verse should be used and interpreted.&nbsp; Your problem is that you have no understanding of how tongues should be used in pray.&nbsp; And so you make bad judgements against your brothers who are just seeking God.&nbsp; You are interfering&nbsp;with the relationship between God and his son.

 

[Andrew]

Louis,

why dont you seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit with tongues ie. get the experience for yourself first and then relook its usage from the perspective of a tongue speaker yourself. then at least you have both sides of the experience and can make better judgements abt the verses

 

[Cheriton]

There is no one that is 100% with god people look like Stonger Christians but inside they have their own worries and their life thay just have strength and the knowledge to give their problems to god.

If god hasent released you in tounges yet just ask him speak with your youth pastor if you ask him for something and have faith in him then he will give to you maybe not straight away but he will give and it took me a long time to understand that.

Everyone is at different places with god. Be hungry for him but dont try and move to fast God uses the situations you are in good and bad to use you to help other people.

It took me a long time to realise a lot of what god was saying to me I still have trouble now but I have faith in him and I see him using all my experiances to help others.

 

[Elnaam]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
Exactly snup and if you keep reading after verse 13 you will see that Paul says that the other man is NOT edified and thus you should not do this in public. He clarifes this even further in verse 28 when he says if you don't have an interpreter (seperate from yourself) be quiet and don't talk.

What you're doing is taking one verse and taking it out of context of the passage to prove your point. If you take it in context of the passage you will see that this type of "tongue" is not to be spoken in public at all, praying or not.

*sigh* how can you go from

"28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God"

to "'So he should speak to himself and God quietly in tongues' " ?

It says keep quite, ie DON'T TALK. the word used there is sigao and it means silence, it DON'T TALK AT ALL. Why do you insist on twisting it to say something else?

As far as an interpeter goes, you're not even looking at the verses I've giving you

In verse 27 and 28 its apparent that the speaker and the interpreter are 2 different people. One person speaks at a time, then someone interprets, then another speaks and is interpreted, it even says at the most THREE, and we haven't even gone there yet

if you want to label me a thomas, go for it, Christ explained himself to thomas very clearly and concise and thomas believed, this is something you aren't doing, so I'm not believing you're using tongues correctly.

do I believe it happened? Yes, if you say it did, then it did, do I believe it was from God, not based on what you have told me so far in accordance with scripture.

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. There is no indication that a person cannot interpert his own tongue in fact I heard that this very Sunday. One has to speak in faith and believe that God will give someone else the interpertation. Simply put Thomas is accurate.

 

[Andrew]

Yeah,

Smith Wigglesworth interpreted his tongues messages many a times in his sermons.

 

[LouisBooth]

"also, the passage is talking about speaking messages in tongues, not praying and singing in tongues. there's a difference. "

that's a distinction I don't see made in scripture Andrew. The context says its just tongues, that's it.

"Verse 39 says do not forbid speaking in tongues, that is exactly what you are doing. "

I have never said don't speak in tongues, I am not forbidding it,just forbidding the misuse of it. Please reread my posts. Thanks

"A mans prayers does not count, it is a private thing"

Exactly, don't be obscene in church. Its a private thing, keep it in private (the defiation of obscene is doing something in public that should be done in private). So again, do it in private, not in a corperate gathering.

"why dont you seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit with tongues ie. get the experience for yourself first and then relook its usage from the perspective of a tongue speaker yourself. then at least you have both sides of the experience and can make better judgements abt the verses "

You mean the unknown language? I know my gifts is not tongues (other languages). I have prayed about it andrew..I usually don't speak on things I haven't already talked to God about. I'll ask him again though.

"There is no indication that a person cannot interpert his own tongue in fact I heard that this very Sunday. "

Yes there is. Read the verse. verse 27's structure indicates a person seperate from the speaker is interpreting.

 

[Andrew]

quote:"There is no indication that a person cannot interpert his own tongue in fact I heard that this very Sunday. "Yes there is. Read the verse. verse 27's structure indicates a person seperate from the speaker is interpreting.""

1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

"You mean the unknown language? I know my gifts is not tongues (other languages). I have prayed about it andrew..I usually don't speak on things I haven't already talked to God about. I'll ask him again though."

I'm talking abt Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Once you receive you can speak in tongues if you use your faith ie open your mouth, use your breath and tongue and just begin to talk, even if it's just one or two syllables. that's how Christians receive today. there's nothing super-spiritual or mysterious about it. it just takes simple faith. Are you willing to open your mouth and speak or do you just want to rationalise the whole thing away as dumb. the choice is yours and God wont force it.

 

[suzie]

Andrew- you are saying that those who do not possess the gift of tongues are not saved?

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Verse 39 says do not forbid speaking in tongues, that is exactly what you are doing. "

I have never said don't speak in tongues, I am not forbidding it,just forbidding the misuse of it. Please reread my posts. Thanks

"A mans prayers does not count, it is a private thing"

Exactly, don't be obscene in church. Its a private thing, keep it in private (the defiation of obscene is doing something in public that should be done in private). So again, do it in private, not in a corperate gathering.

Are you saying that a person can not pray in church, that threre is to be no pesonal comunication to God in church.

If personal prayer is allowed in church then how he prayes does not matter only that he is seeeking God.

Also how do you explain the increase of the presence of God when there is praying in tongues in a service.

If you do forbid praying in church then you are forbiding not only the use of tongues but also the use of prayer.