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theophilus40
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How do you know this? You said that Abraham and Jacob were following the laws of Hammurabi but where did Hammurabi get his knowledge of what is right?
It is clear that people knew the difference between right and wrong before God revealed the Law to Moses. Much of the Mosaic Law wasn't a new revelation but a codification of laws that the people already knew. Abraham and Jacob knew how God wanted them to live; if they chose to obey a command that had been given by Hammurabi that shows that this command was actually what God wanted people to do.
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GaryArnold
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Seems to me that Jesus knew the difference between right and wrong. Find any scripture where He tithed? Find any scriptures where He collected a tithe?
Tithing had NOTHING to do with right or wrong. Eleven tribes of Israel inherited the promised land, and one tribe inherited the tithe. Simple as that.
Tithing had NOTHING to do with right or wrong. Eleven tribes of Israel inherited the promised land, and one tribe inherited the tithe. Simple as that.
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It is clear that people knew the difference between right and wrong before God revealed the Law to Moses. Much of the Mosaic Law wasn't a new revelation but a codification of laws that the people already knew. Abraham and Jacob knew how God wanted them to live; if they chose to obey a command that had been given by Hammurabi that shows that this command was actually what God wanted people to do.[/quote]
Whew, that is certainly a lot of supposition. Do you really want to go to that point? That whatever they decided to do according to the laws of their day--such as having a children by their concubines or wedding competing sisters--it was really because that's what God wanted them to do?
According to Hammurabi himself, he got his laws from Ba'al through Marduk:
"When Anu the Sublime, King of the Anunaki, and Ba'al, the lord of Heaven and earth, who decreed the fate of the land, assigned to Marduk, the over-ruling son of Ea, God of righteousness, dominion over earthly man, and made him great among the Igigi, they called Babylon by his illustrious name, made it great on earth, and founded an everlasting kingdom in it, whose foundations are laid so solidly as those of heaven and earth; then Anu and Bel called by name me, Hammurabi, the exalted prince, who feared God, to bring about the rule of righteousness in the land, to destroy the wicked and the evil-doers; so that the strong should not harm the weak; so that I should rule over the black-headed people like Shamash, and enlighten the land, to further the well-being of mankind. "
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ok provide proof that what you generally claim is true as only one out of five churches I have attended do that. It is nothing but your personal experience and personal opinion. Yet you are condemning all these churches as being wrong.
I think you are reading too much into that. It never says this is the only way. A just as valid interpretation would be whatever you do for others you do for me. Or you could conclude that the sheep are the ones whose faith made them do good works (that is not saying works based salvation just in case you want to leap to that conclusion like many do). The bible makes it clear that if you love God you will follow his commands.
See I did ask you to define needy & poor but you didn't. Perhaps we agree but because of the lack of definition we seem to disagree. Matthew 25 is most certainly not the only time we see a person in need and we are instructed to help. Matthew 25 is certainly not the only passage on giving to God.
you are changing your position here. So when I said we need to follow NT commands and you said you were not under the law except the law of the spirit why do you feel you need to follow NT instruction to follow the law of the spirit? Why do you feel the need to follow one NT instruction but not others? Makes no sense.
right so you don't believe in taking care to make sure scripture you reference actually applies before giving it as evidence. Have a look at post #66
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Why did Jesus not give anything? Only scriptural answers accepted! Well as scripture points out because of who he was he did not need to.
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CounselorForChrist
Senior Veteran
Wow. There are so many views on here that teaching the wrong thing that I can't reply to them all. Tithing is an optional thing. If you want to do it, you do it because you want to. Not because you feel you must. It needs to come from the heart. The amount (or percentage) is up to you. Most people that tithe go by 10% sort of as a default. Theres no specific amount really you have to give.
As to when to tithe. Most I know give from the top of their paycheck. They do this because if you wait until you pay bills, buy stuff...etc. Then you have little and thus only give a little. Which seems more like "I'll spend everything else first, then tithe last so I don't waste money I could have been spending!".
I'll share my story as briefly as I can. I tithed as a little kid from my allowance. As I grew up I stopped tithing all together. Especially after my brain injury at 16. What little money I had (because I couldn't work) I spend on myself because I said I couldn't afford to tithe. My life was always having issue. Especially financially.
A few years ago someone helped be better my christian life to be like it was before my injury. So I decided I wanted to tithe again. Being on SSI I don't get alot. If I were living on my own I'd barley have enough for rent. Well I started to tithe 10% right off the top of my SSI money. I trusted in God.
Well needless to say my life has been amazing since then. Not that it has been perfect mind you. One example is I needed to go marry my wife overseas. It would be a couple thousand between the tickets, the wedding, a place to stay...etc. Mind you I added up how long it would take to save enough money. My calculations shower about 3-4 years if I recall. That is if I stopped tithing again.
Well I had faith in God and tithed anyway. And as always I still gave my parents money to help pay some bills (I live at home for now). So as always I didn't have alot. Needless to say about 9 months later I was able to travel overseas and marry my wife. God provided! In the bible it says something along the lines of by trusting in Him and tithing, you will get more back in blessings then you put in. Like I said, I forgot the exact wording.
Well we definitely have been blessed. At most every obstacle God has provided. Even if something gets delayed, it ends up being better later. So the delay was for a reason. We went there and came back with exactly $2! On the way back I didn't realize there were varying fees. So God knew this and still let us bring the right amount so that on the way back we would have enough for those fees.
Am I saying life somehow becomes perfect if you tithe or that you will always get tons of blessings...etc? No. Life will never be perfect. His plans are better then ours. But I am for sure glad that I am tithing what little I have because I feel great now and love the blessings I receive from Him. On a side note its not really our money to begin with. Its Gods money. So we are tithing His own money back our of obedience to show we trust Him.
Like I said this is all optional. Its not like you will go to hell for not tithing.
As to when to tithe. Most I know give from the top of their paycheck. They do this because if you wait until you pay bills, buy stuff...etc. Then you have little and thus only give a little. Which seems more like "I'll spend everything else first, then tithe last so I don't waste money I could have been spending!".
I'll share my story as briefly as I can. I tithed as a little kid from my allowance. As I grew up I stopped tithing all together. Especially after my brain injury at 16. What little money I had (because I couldn't work) I spend on myself because I said I couldn't afford to tithe. My life was always having issue. Especially financially.
A few years ago someone helped be better my christian life to be like it was before my injury. So I decided I wanted to tithe again. Being on SSI I don't get alot. If I were living on my own I'd barley have enough for rent. Well I started to tithe 10% right off the top of my SSI money. I trusted in God.
Well needless to say my life has been amazing since then. Not that it has been perfect mind you. One example is I needed to go marry my wife overseas. It would be a couple thousand between the tickets, the wedding, a place to stay...etc. Mind you I added up how long it would take to save enough money. My calculations shower about 3-4 years if I recall. That is if I stopped tithing again.
Well I had faith in God and tithed anyway. And as always I still gave my parents money to help pay some bills (I live at home for now). So as always I didn't have alot. Needless to say about 9 months later I was able to travel overseas and marry my wife. God provided! In the bible it says something along the lines of by trusting in Him and tithing, you will get more back in blessings then you put in. Like I said, I forgot the exact wording.
Well we definitely have been blessed. At most every obstacle God has provided. Even if something gets delayed, it ends up being better later. So the delay was for a reason. We went there and came back with exactly $2! On the way back I didn't realize there were varying fees. So God knew this and still let us bring the right amount so that on the way back we would have enough for those fees.
Am I saying life somehow becomes perfect if you tithe or that you will always get tons of blessings...etc? No. Life will never be perfect. His plans are better then ours. But I am for sure glad that I am tithing what little I have because I feel great now and love the blessings I receive from Him. On a side note its not really our money to begin with. Its Gods money. So we are tithing His own money back our of obedience to show we trust Him.
Like I said this is all optional. Its not like you will go to hell for not tithing.
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GaryArnold
Newbie
You don't tithe per the scriptures, you tithe per man's instructions.
I'd rather go by what the scriptures teach than my own experience. I don't teach others according to my experiences, but rather from the scriptures.
Since God defined His tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33, how dare anyone change His definition to money.
We are free to give whatever we please, whether that be 10%, .001% or 100%. When Christians say they tithe, they are ignoring what God called His tithe.
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S
susyan
Guest
what is wrong with home fellowship instead of renting a church building? this way there will not be a need for money to cover rent, etc, and everyone would be free to give to the needy as the Lord directs.
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Not even the first congregation at Jerusalem held all their activities in homes--they met at the temple for teaching and preaching, where a large mass of people could be gathered in one place.
Most homes are too small and in this modern age, there will be public safety and public nuisance issues. You can't bring 100 people into your house on a regular basis is most neighborhoods.
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CounselorForChrist
Senior Veteran
Well that verse you posted is actually part of old testament law for the people of the time. Things changed after Jesus death.
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GaryArnold
Newbie
Can you show me any scripture in the New Testament where God changed His definition of the tithe? Can you show me any scripture after Calvary where tithing is taught in the New Testament?
Tithing from one's income to the church is a man-made doctrine and is not Biblical.
Yes, things changed after the death of Jesus. Tithing ended at the cross per several scripture verses, including Hebrews 7:5,12,18. Since it ended, and there is no new teaching of tithing in the New Testament, why do pastors have to make up stories and teach it as being Biblical?
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CounselorForChrist
Senior Veteran
I could but we are not alot to debate in this section. Only give advice. I gave mine. Your free to believe what you want.
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do you give to everyone who teaches you? If not then you are not following scripture. You also ignore that words change meaning or gain additional meanings. Gay still means happy but these days it also refers to sexual preference. Likewise the meaning of tithe has changed. If you want to get caught up on word games when someone agrees with you go ahead but I would suggest the better course is to understand what they say.
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nothing is wrong although it does come with problems. I have been to a number of home churches and they are fairly closed groups not real welcoming to newcomers. I have attended churches where people have been walking past and saw a service was about to start and decided to come in on the spur of the moment. Would not happen with a home church. On another occasion a couple whose son was killed in a car crash wanted to just sit in the church. Once again with a home church this would not be possible unless they knew where to find these churches and even then people might be out at work. Home churches certainly do have benefits and I would not discourage them existing but it does have limitations.
I know a few churches that run the mainly music program. That would be difficult in most houses. Other programs run by churches can be difficult or impossible to run in a home church. Renting or owning a place causes problems as well of course as you said.
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GaryArnold
Newbie
It is not me who ignores that words change meanings. That's the problem. When reading the scriptures, let's say the King James version of the Holy Bible, in order to get it's real meaning, you have to use the meaning of the words at the time the scriptures were translated into English for King James.
The meaning of tithe has definitely changed. That is the big problem. How does a meaning of a word change? By its usage. If a word is use incorrectly by enough people, the meaning changes. Now we have a man-made definition of tithe that is totally different than the Biblical meaning.
This is not playing with words or a word game. This is a very serious matter of taking scripture and CHANGING ITS MEANING to fit the needs of the church. As Christians, we are not supposed to changed the scriptures to fit the times, we are supposed to change our ways to fit the scriptures.
Do the scriptures really say we are to give to everyone who teaches us? All though school, from kindergarten through college, I had teachers that I didn't give to. I wasn't supposed to, nor was I expected to. As far as preachers, I have given to all of them through offerings.
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GaryArnold
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Are you saying that giving scripture is debating? I only asked for scripture where God changed His definition of His tithe. When dealing with the scriptures, no one needs advice from anyone. We need truth from the scriptures. What I believe doesn't matter. What you believe doesn't matter. The scriptures are what matters.
Now, please, without debating, just list the scriptures where God changed His definition of the tithe from crops and animals (Leviticus 27:30-33) to whatever you say it is now. That is all I am asking for. If you have it, I can learn something here.
Tithe means a tenth or tenth part. Don't want or need any scriptures dealing with giving unless it refers to a tenth (tithe).
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but if a person is using it with a more modern definition then you need to read what they wrote in light of that definition. I could see from the other things included in the same post that they were using a different definition. So that is where it does indeed become playing word games. If they were claiming the same definition as originally meant then certainly you would have a point.
Sorry I did not make it clear that I was talking about spiritual teachers such as pastors although I did assume you would take it that way.
Yes asking for scripture can be debate in this sub-forum. It would be ok if this thread was in Christian ethics or theology sub-forums. What you and I are doing here is actually classified as debate in Advice forum.
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GaryArnold
Newbie
Sorry, but the person we are referring to obviously thought they were using God's definition since they also said, "In the bible it says something along the lines of by trusting in Him and tithing, you will get more back in blessings then you put in. Like I said, I forgot the exact wording."
That tells me the person has no clue as to what Biblical tithing was, but thinks they are following scripture when they "tithe."
Christians should not pluck the word "tithe" out of context from the scriptures and use it as though it is Biblical.
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