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Tired of Defending.

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AV1611VET

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But don't discount science based on misinformation.
I think if you truly want to believe something, science will make a way for it to be explained ... at least on paper.

This is why abortion is rampant now.

Scientists changed the term "child in the womb" to "fetus".

And that's just one example of many.
 
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AV1611VET

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Now now Av, you are twisting words.

Lets look at your quote.



As we have said, it's not an outright claim of factual knowledge, it's a hypothesis. Life is "Thought" to come from non living matter in the scientific community.
It's not a lie if it is simply alleged. It could only be a lie if it were stated as fact.
Hmmm ... good point.

I shall acquiesce.
 
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Old Ned

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I think if you truly want to believe something, science will make a way for it to be explained ... at least on paper.

This is why abortion is rampant now.

Scientists changed the term "child in the womb" to "fetus".

And that's just one example of many.

It's not about belief, it's about what is stated. And changing what is stated will lead to an opinion/belief based on misinformation.

The misinformation does not come from Science, it comes from people like Ken Ham and Hovind, who will take a sentence from Science and completely misrepresent the context in which it was made.

"Science cannot explain the Origins of life with solid evidence"

turns into "Science admits to having no proof of Evolution"

It's propaganda. Remember my thread about this, this is what I meant.
 
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Michael

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I think if you truly want to believe something, science will make a way for it to be explained ... at least on paper.

This is why abortion is rampant now.

Scientists changed the term "child in the womb" to "fetus".

And that's just one example of many.

Lambda-CDM being another. :)
 
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Old Ned

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Technically the misinformation can come from any source even sources that are considered to be "scientific" at that time.

No, no. We are not talking about a lack of understanding in certain fields, which is then corrected or built on.

We are talking about a statement that is twisted and reworded to mean something it originally did not mean.
 
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Michael

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No, no. We are not talking about a lack of understanding in certain fields, which is then corrected or built on.

We are talking about a statement that is twisted and reworded to mean something it originally did not mean.

Ah, my bad.
 
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KWCrazy

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The computer is new, do you believe they don't exist?
Do you seriously think a question so stupid deserves reply?
Nope, you provide proof and I will kneel.
You WILL get your proof and you WILL kneel. The only question is whether it is before you die or after.
My Oxford Dictionary spell checker does not red flag god without capital.
Then discard it. ALL proper nouns are capitalized. If you say a god it is not, but if you say God it is capitalized.
So you admit, outside scripture there is no evidence of god except hearsay.
Personal eyewitness testimony is not hearsay.
1: What would you accept as a transitional fossil? (No real answer here I suspect)
Between any two allegedly transitioned fossils we should see hundreds of "tweeners." We don't. We see fully formed life forms with no evidence whatever of transition. There shouldn't be fossils in deserts or mountain peaks, but there is. There shouldn't be fossils where there are other predators because they would eat the remains. We still find them. We find millions of animals buried quickly and encased in sediment, which we would expect from a global flood.
2: Look at a colour wheel, red moving clockwise to blue and please point out what you would consider the transitional point of half red and half blue. Again, you can't I suspect.
We can observe a color wheel in motion. Increasing complexity has never been observed.
No, a testimony is subjective and is usually required to be backed up with objective evidence in a court of law.
False. Multiple claimants giving the same testimony in the absence of an alibi or any exculpatory evidence will send you to prison every time.
Otherwise we could just walk around saying "He did it" and then we would be back to burning witches.
Burned any witches lately, or do you just revel in anachronistic metaphors?
No thanks. God can take a hike!
Blasphemy is not allowed.
.... I've drowned twice, both back when I believed,
You nearly drowned. Drowning is a cause of death.
my "Vision" had nothing to do with god.
Actually, NDE's that include encounters with a deity are extremely rare. It's also rare to see an angel or demon and survive, because that means you're clinically dead. You're more likely to see a bright light or a loved one.
As I explained before, spending 15 years in a torturous situation
You knew my ex wife?

.... while believing and begging god and jesus for mercy and telling them how I'm not worthy but if they could find it in their loving hearts to accept me and simply help me, send me a sign, give me strength or something... they ignored me and an Atheist saved me.
Who sent the atheist?
Who gave you the strength to carry on?
Do you think you were tested more than Job? How did he react?
Do you think that maybe God allowed bad things to happen because you were strong enough to handle it; and that by surviving you could help others?

... well I am a walking testimony and neither god nor jesus did jack for me.
I notice you're still alive.
You might remember that I never said to speak to one source only. Not everyone who is tested passes. When God answers prayers, it's not always the answer you want or expect.

Well God is suppose to be omni stuff, able to do absolutely anything... meaning he chose not to, why on Earth would I want to love and worship someone who let me suffer?
Why did Job?
Suffering doesn't come from God. Suffering comes from the other guy; the one you are rewarding with your servitude in hating the Lord. How does that make sense to you; serving the one who caused you pain?

Or second hand if you like, one of the 2 people I performed CPR on when I was a lifeguard, she had a "Vision" and hers was nothing to do with god,
They usually do not.
in fact she believed more than I did and was quite upset that her near death vision was about her daughter... not god and she wondered why.
God didn't apparently need to appear to her to give her peace, the image of her daughter was quite sufficient. Here's the lesson you need to learn. It's the secret to it all.
Ready?
God is love.
All love comes from God. He who loves not knows not God, for God is love.
Love is the strongest force in the universe, because love is our connection directly with the father.

God wasn't there... I was.
Sorry, but no.
God was there.
God gave you the desire to learn lifesaving skills.
God gave you the ability to keep cool while others panicked and do what you were trained to do.
You provided air and circulation. The autonomic nervous system that God designed in her took over from there.
God loves her and wants her with Him, but He is patient and willing to let her go on. Perhaps the near death encounter will make her a stronger person and a better witness for God. It frequently has that effect; except when someone would rather blame God for all the things that go wrong in his life.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Why is the onus always on us to provide evidence for Evolution etc?
We provide evidence that gets ignored, and more evidence is asked for.

Yet when we ask for Evidence of god, all we get is scripture.

We make an assertion, we get asked to offer explanations and evidence. We do exactly this and then it gets ignored.
The Transitional Fossil argument is a good example, a question that is infinite.

But easily counter-argued.

We've asked for evidence of God and we get scripture.

We also are constantly explaining that Evolution does not have a conciousness or plan... this also gets ignored.

So... I ask 2 questions.

1: What is god's "End Game"? What does god plan the end result of his creation to be and what is to become of it?

2: I would like someone to offer up some form of evidence that does NOT centre around the Bible.

Quotes from the Bible will not be accepted as an answer.
We offer a scientific paper and get asked for a different one to back it up.
Therefore if one book of science is not enough evidence for you, then one book from religion is not enough for us.

Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

I'm asking the same thing, there's one book that everyone uses to "Prove god" , well I'm asking... Challenging, anyone to offer up something that is NOT from this book and is evidence without simple hearsay.

Anyone?

What evidence is there of evolution? That mutations can not account for the formation of new genetic material? That mutations reach a saturation limit and then no new variations are ever produced?

http://www.weloennig.de/Loennig-Long-Version-of-Law-of-Recurrent-Variation.pdf

That fossils are the same from the first T-Rex to the last T-Rex, with no micro or macro evolution appearing at all? That a static state is evident from all creatures that survived the cataclysm?

Dodging living fossils

Living Fossils

That many transitory species are merely the young or old of existing species?

Jack Horner: Shape-shifting dinosaurs - YouTube

Its a false religion.

Debunking Evolution - problems between the theory and reality; the false science of evolution
 
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Old Ned

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Sorry, but no.
God was there.
God gave you the desire to learn lifesaving skills.
God gave you the ability to keep cool while others panicked and do what you were trained to do.
You provided air and circulation. The autonomic nervous system that God designed in her took over from there.
God loves her and wants her with Him, but He is patient and willing to let her go on. Perhaps the near death encounter will make her a stronger person and a better witness for God. It frequently has that effect; except when someone would rather blame God for all the things that go wrong in his life.


A full reply to you can wait, I've had a long day.

Just know, I found your post pretty insulting.

One thing, where did I say I blamed god for anything that went wrong in my life? It seems that is what you are insinuating.

No, I blame me for everything, good and bad in my life. You know why? Because I make every decision, I could have got out of the bad situation, the cost would have been the end of at least 1 persons life... but I had the choice.
Someone could hold a gun to my head, I have the choice of my next move.
The choice is always there, but the repercussions frighten us. If I had a choice in almost everything that ever happened, then I am responsible for my own bad experiences.
I can live with that.

You can believe god gave me strength, skills and other things you said, that's fine. But do not TELL me he did.
You may tell me you believe he did, but you may not state it as fact, not to me. I do not accept it as fact and you cannot prove it.

Done.
 
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Gracchus

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The evidences are pretty simple, which come first, chicken or egg?
Well, there were eggs before there were chickens.
dcalling said:
Why is the Y Chromosome getting shorter over time?
Did you know that in honeybees, the males develop from unfertilized eggs? They are not XY, they are just X, and they are missing not just the X chromosomes but have just half the usual number of chromosomes. And in chickens, the males have ZZ chromosomes while the females have ZW. What was your question again?
dcalling said:
The missing links in fossil records.
Well if I understand that sentence fragment, I would simply point out that a lot of them aren't missing anymore. We've found a great many since Darwin wrote.
dcalling said:
There are strong evidences of natural selection (systematic distinction of species), but few evidence of revolution (except on simple cells).
Evolution is not revolution. It takes a very long time to observe speciation in long-lived species, with long generation times. It has been observed in viruses, bacteria, mosquitoes and fruit-flies though.
dcalling said:
The best examples of revolution come from human involvement of DNA changing, but in my view, it is either bring up old traits that already exists, or creating something that might fail in some way (i.e. dogs with certain traits but got other problems that leads to pre-mature organ failure).
We have observed new traits in species. In some desert rats for instance we have observed the appearance of mutations that change fur color from tan to black and because the species has been so well studied, we can, tell just how often the mutation will appear in a population of known size.
Have you any other questions?

:wave:
 
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Gracchus

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I would like to point out that there is no clear and definite line between the chemistry we call "life" and the chemistry we do not call life. When you look really close, there are things like viruses that seem alive only when in the special environment of a living cell, where specialized chemical processes are taking place. None of these processes are unique to life. The same rules of chemistry apply. "Life" is just a convenient way of loosely relating some sorts of chemistry. So, for that matter, is "psychology". Scientists have mapped the "spiritual" activity of the brain. "Knowing" is like an emotion. It can arise with no reasoning at all.
We do what we do. Sometimes we know why, and sometimes we just make up a story to tell ourselves about why we did what we did, and like Flip Wilson's Geraldine, we might say, "The devil made me do it!" Paul of Tarsus made himself wretched because he would do what he "knew" he shouldn't. It's no devil. It's just one part of our brain, the amygdala, acting before the reasoning part of our brain has even figured out what's going on. And sometimes the anterior cingulate cortex where such reasoning as we are able to do takes place, can actually change how we react. Mostly though, it just makes up stories and excuses.
And most people, for most of human history, have believed what made them comfortable, what society wanted them to believe, because if they didn't at least pretend to believe, there was the rack, and the stake, and the gallows, and the stoning field.
I have walked nearly seventy years through the horror that is the human race, and I learned early on to keep my mouth shut if I wanted to live un-tortured. Here I can speak with out alienating my family.
Religion is delusion, and if you back a religious person into an corner, he will react viciously, just like any psychotic person. I cannot blame people for being religious. They are, in fact, not sane, because of their beloved, self-protecting delusions.

"The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion. Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo."



:wave:
 
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mzungu

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What evidence is there of evolution? That mutations can not account for the formation of new genetic material? That mutations reach a saturation limit and then no new variations are ever produced?

http://www.weloennig.de/Loennig-Long-Version-of-Law-of-Recurrent-Variation.pdf

That fossils are the same from the first T-Rex to the last T-Rex, with no micro or macro evolution appearing at all? That a static state is evident from all creatures that survived the cataclysm?

Dodging living fossils

Living Fossils

That many transitory species are merely the young or old of existing species?

Jack Horner: Shape-shifting dinosaurs - YouTube

Its a false religion.

Debunking Evolution - problems between the theory and reality; the false science of evolution
:doh:someone please shoot me :doh:
 
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Heissonear

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I would like to point out that there is no clear and definite line between the chemistry we call "life" and the chemistry we do not call life. When you look really close, there are things like viruses that seem alive only when in the special environment of a living cell, where specialized chemical processes are taking place. None of these processes are unique to life. The same rules of chemistry apply. "Life" is just a convenient way of loosely relating some sorts of chemistry. So, for that matter, is "psychology". Scientists have mapped the "spiritual" activity of the brain. "Knowing" is like an emotion. It can arise with no reasoning at all.
We do what we do. Sometimes we know why, and sometimes we just make up a story to tell ourselves about why we did what we did, and like Flip Wilson's Geraldine, we might say, "The devil made me do it!" Paul of Tarsus made himself wretched because he would do what he "knew" he shouldn't. It's no devil. It's just one part of our brain, the amygdala, acting before the reasoning part of our brain has even figured out what's going on. And sometimes the anterior cingulate cortex where such reasoning as we are able to do takes place, can actually change how we react. Mostly though, it just makes up stories and excuses.
And most people, for most of human history, have believed what made them comfortable, what society wanted them to believe, because if they didn't at least pretend to believe, there was the rack, and the stake, and the gallows, and the stoning field.
I have walked nearly seventy years through the horror that is the human race, and I learned early on to keep my mouth shut if I wanted to live un-tortured. Here I can speak with out alienating my family.
Religion is delusion, and if you back a religious person into an corner, he will react viciously, just like any psychotic person. I cannot blame people for being religious. They are, in fact, not sane, because of their beloved, self-protecting delusions.

"The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion. Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo."



:wave:


What ignorance. Living your whole life with the Dynamics of the Spiritual Realm in our midst and you lack any apprehension.

To further present your ignorance towards others, you without evidence say that the Spiritual Realm does not exist. I mean how do you know, being absent experience of it.

Hey, you would be the last one I'd ask, having only armchair, vocabulary, mere words comprehension that is void of truth.

But of course your a smart man and understand what you do not understand.

.
 
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Belk

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What ignorance. Living your whole life with the Dynamics of the Spiritual Realm in our midst and you lack any apprehension.

Oh, we have plenty of apprehension about what some who claim a "spiritual realm" are capable of.

To further present your ignorance towards others, you without evidence say that the Spiritual Realm does not exist. I mean how do you know, being absent experience of it.

Well, that is kind of the whole issue isn't it? There is no reproducible empirical evidence that a spiritual realm exists. You and many others claim it does, but you all disagree on how this spiritual realm is comprised. Couple the fact that we have no sensory organs that allow for interacting in a spiritual realm with a mind that has well documented seeing things that are not there and it all starts to look somewhat suspicious.

Hey, you would be the last one I'd ask, having only armchair, vocabulary, mere words comprehension that is void of truth.


But of course your a smart man and understand what you do not understand.

.


And you deny a reality that is highly evidenced based on your religion. Somehow you don't seem like the right guy to go to for "Truth" either.
 
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