Times Square Church and Wilkerson

[Cribstyl]

Since dave Wilkerson was Assemblies of God, and stuck pretty close to the Assemblies of God denomination (Assemblies of God (USA) Official Web Site) they're pretty representative of His "belief package" and the times Square statement of belief matches closely.And of the majority of Pentecostalism as a whole.

Note - Pentecostals in general and Wilkerson in particular are "Trinitarians". The "Oneness Pentecostals" are a very divergent group that follows their own track (and often think they're the ONLY Christians).


"1. when a person TRUELY trusts in Christ for his salvation, are all his sins, including his future sins, forgiven?"

You can't be forgiven of something that you haven't done, of course!

Salvation isn't a "One ZAP Blanket coverage" - it's a living relationship with the Lord. WHEN you sin, you Repent of it, are forgiven, and the sin is forgotten. IF you try to "Justify yourself" - then there's no restoration of relationship until you stop that foolishness.

"2. can a born again christian loose his salvation? if yes, then how?"

There is Biblical Indication that salvation CAN be lost. Generally the "Mechanism" is simple neglect. One simply gets busy with "other things", and gradually falls away - until there's nothing left that could be called "Faith" any longer.

Probably nothing "Kills" a relationship with the Lord more quickly that un-forgiveness against another. This, even when it's THEIR fault, is still YOUR responsibility to tear up the I.O.U. and release them - and yourself from that trap.

It's my EXPERIENCE (as one who did "fall away") that God DOES send "wake up calls" (sometimes pretty brutal ones) to Get the attention of the backslider.

I'm in agreement Bob.... The prodigal son is an example of how a son leaves the father on his own terms. It reminds us that God does not force His will on us. The door is always open to come home, stay home or walk away. We cant live sinful live and not expect consequences. You cant serve God and mammon (humanity)
God is Holy, the wages of sin is death. Repentence is required for forgiveness.

 

[lilmissmontana]

Since dave Wilkerson was Assemblies of God, and stuck pretty close to the Assemblies of God denomination (Assemblies of God (USA) Official Web Site) they're pretty representative of His "belief package" and the times Square statement of belief matches closely.And of the majority of Pentecostalism as a whole.

Note - Pentecostals in general and Wilkerson in particular are "Trinitarians". The "Oneness Pentecostals" are a very divergent group that follows their own track (and often think they're the ONLY Christians).


"1. when a person TRUELY trusts in Christ for his salvation, are all his sins, including his future sins, forgiven?"

You can't be forgiven of something that you haven't done, of course!

Salvation isn't a "One ZAP Blanket coverage" - it's a living relationship with the Lord. WHEN you sin, you Repent of it, are forgiven, and the sin is forgotten. IF you try to "Justify yourself" - then there's no restoration of relationship until you stop that foolishness.

"2. can a born again christian loose his salvation? if yes, then how?"

There is Biblical Indication that salvation CAN be lost. Generally the "Mechanism" is simple neglect. One simply gets busy with "other things", and gradually falls away - until there's nothing left that could be called "Faith" any longer.

Probably nothing "Kills" a relationship with the Lord more quickly that un-forgiveness against another. This, even when it's THEIR fault, is still YOUR responsibility to tear up the I.O.U. and release them - and yourself from that trap.

It's my EXPERIENCE (as one who did "fall away") that God DOES send "wake up calls" (sometimes pretty brutal ones) to Get the attention of the backslider.

I STRONGLY disagree with this statement. Salvation comes by no other ... only Jesus. Jesus didn't make a mistake and He didn't get lost.

 

[lilmissmontana]

copied from the rules above ...

House Rules-
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here (Community Rules). In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic.


http://www.christianforums.com/f122/

 

[lilmissmontana]

I don't think that one can "slip away" from God, or simply be too busy, and lose salvation. I believe it has to be a deliberate turning away, a person saying, "I know what Jesus did for me. But I choose to follow the world."

totally, totally, totally ... AMEN. AMEN. AMEN.

 

[Cribstyl]

Here is the AOG teaching on eternal security...

Does the Bible Teach Eternal Security?


exert................
Like limited atonement, Augustine popularized the doctrine of perseverance of the saints in the fifth century A.D. The Roman Catholic Church eventually adopted his teaching on this subject as official doctrine. It was the commonly accepted position at the time of the Protestant Reformation. Leaders of the Reformation, such as John Calvin, also accepted and promoted it along with a number of other pre-Reformational Roman Catholic doctrines and practices. In this way, eternal security has come down into the doctrinal systems of many modern Protestant denominations today.
The Arminian/Wesleyan/Holiness tradition, and the Assemblies of God that grew out of it, have both historically rejected the belief in eternal security. The official AG Web site states, “The Assemblies of God has taken a stand against the teaching that God’s sovereign will completely overrides man’s free will to accept and serve Him. In view of this we believe it is possible for a person once saved to turn from God and be lost again.”4
Even though the Assemblies of God has taken a strong and unequivocal official position, our people may not understand this doctrine or our position on this issue. People in our congregations often work with people who believe in eternal security. They need to know how to respond to the beliefs of their coworkers. Therefore, it is important for pastors to teach the arguments used by proponents of perseverance of the saints/eternal security, the appropriate responses to their assertions, and the biblical basis for our position: Believers can voluntarily forfeit their salvation by turning away from the lordship of Christ.

 

[Cribstyl]

Apostasy

To apostasize means to sever one’s saving relationship with Christ or to withdraw from vital union with and true faith in Him. Thus, individual apostasy is possible only for those who have first experienced salvation, regeneration, and renewal through the Holy Spirit (Luke 8:13; Hebrews 6:4,5); it is not a mere denial of New Testament doctrine by the unsaved within the visible church. Apostasy may involve two separate, though related, aspects: (a) theological apostasy, i.e., a rejection of all or some of the original teachings of Christ and the apostles (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3), and (b) moral apostasy, i.e., the former believer ceases to remain in Christ and instead becomes enslaved again to sin and immorality (Isaiah 29:13; Matthew 23:25-28; Romans 6:15-23; 8:6-13).
Donald Stamps, Gen. Ed. Life in the Spirit Study Bible, (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1992), 1918.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Well, since I'm a member of, and on the official deacon board of the DeSoto Assembly of God church in DeSoto, TX, and have been a member of the Assemblies of God since 1963, I'll assume that NONE of the above applies to me.

A promotion of "Eternal Security or OSAS teaching" in relation to the Assemblies of God denominational position would DEFINITLY be "Contrary to the established teachings of this group"

 

[Cribstyl]

In 1974 In Queens New York, David Wilkerson came to my neighborhood and showed a movie on the wall in a vacant lot. This was actually the first movie I ever saw,"The Cross and the Switchblade".

David preached a brief sermon after the movie and many responded to the call. Back then everybody was in gangs.
I was too young for gangs at that time.

The movie and the message did have an impact on my life. I was moved by the love and passion that David's group had for Jesus and to reach souls. I wanted to reach souls for Jesus when I grew up. I will never forget David Wilkerson.

 

[Ribosome]

where can i ask questions to pentecostals? is there a forum on this site where i can do that?

 

[Cribstyl]

where can i ask questions to pentecostals? is there a forum on this site where i can do that?

You can ask questions in fellowship without armtwisting on church doctrines .

 

[stormdancer0]

where can i ask questions to pentecostals? is there a forum on this site where i can do that?

You are welcome to ask me anything. I am a pastor at a Pentecostal church and will give you a direct answer. But rather than cause dissension on this forum, please PM me.

 

[melindarella]

Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Maybe the question is not can you lose your salvation, but are you really saved to begin with.

2Pe 1:10 (a) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure...

 

[ed foster]

Good discussion. The problem I've always had with the OSAS folks is the question: What of a 12-year old who wholly accepts Christ at Bible camp, but then never gives it another thought and soon falls away? HOME safe! say the OSAS folks. "Never saved in the first place" might say others. I too have fallen away by neglect, and, only by grace, have been called back, and responded.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Good discussion. The problem I've always had with the OSAS folks is the question: What of a 12-year old who wholly accepts Christ at Bible camp, but then never gives it another thought and soon falls away? HOME safe! say the OSAS folks. "Never saved in the first place" might say others. I too have fallen away by neglect, and, only by grace, have been called back, and responded.

When you give it some thought, you realize that "Once Saved, ALWAYS Saved" has a "Back door" clause in the churches that teach it as fact. -

Your 12 year old "Wholly accepted" Christ, and "Never gave it another thought???" I'd IMMEDIATELY call into question what actually happened at "Bible Camp". One who "Wholly Accepts Christ" in the sense of being Born AGain. DOESN'T "Never give it another thought", although "Intellectual conversions" devoid of Faith, function that way often.

It's unimportant, though, whether he was "Saved" THEN - he's NOT saved NOW as his life bears witness.

So - evangelize him! He's in DEEP Spiritual trouble!!!!

A More frequent is a person who becomes "Born Again", and his LIFE bears witness to his testimony - for a while - maybe years, but then he "grows cold", and returns to his "old ways", and after a while there's no sign that he was EVER a Christian.

In this case Arminians, and Calvinists agree perfectly: HE's NOT Saved NOW.

The Calvie says that he "Never was" saved and is lost, and the 'Minian says he WAS saved, but walked away from it, and is lost.

So essentially the only thing different is the "theological Path" to the same conclusion - he's lost!!!!

So - evangelize him! He's in DEEP Spiritual trouble!!!!

 

[ed foster]

[A More frequent is a person who becomes "Born Again", and his LIFE bears witness to his testimony - for a while - maybe years, but then he "grows cold", and returns to his "old ways", and after a while there's no sign that he was EVER a Christian.

In this case Arminians, and Calvinists agree perfectly: HE's NOT Saved NOW.]

Yes, this was more what I had in mind -- by "never giving it another thought" I intended to mean "fell away through indifference AFTER a certain length of time." I tried to present the case of indifference as starkly as possible. I know many adults in the secular world who have experienced this. I agree with your conclusion.