Times Square Church and Wilkerson

[Ribosome]

hello, i have some basic questions about pentecostalism. a friend of mine likes times square church and wilkerson's sermons.

what does pentecostalism, specifically wilkerson/his church say about the following questions:

1. when a person TRUELY trusts in Christ for his salvation, are all his sins, including his future sins, forgiven?

2. can a born again christian loose his salvation? if yes, then how?

if you could provide links or quotes from wilkerson or his church that would be even better.

 

[KTskater]

I had never heard of this pastor or this church until this thread, so I can't tell you a whole lot about it. I know that their statement of faith can be found on their website.

Personally, I've never been to a church (Pentecostal or otherwise) that didn't believe that Jesus atoned for all of humanity's sin both past, present and future. If that wasn't the case, He would have to die for every new sin a person commits.
As far as losing one's salvation, but Pentecostals tend to be Arminians, although there are a few with Calvinistic leanings, but they are rare.

 

[Buzzy]

David Wilkerson recently passed on to Heaven, he was the founding pastor of Times Square Church and yes he gave some awesome sermons. The Pentecostal Churches tend to follow the Bible's teachings in Hebrews Chapter 10 regarding sin, so yes there is a willful sin, some call it apostasy, which there is no forgiveness for. "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins". So, the Word of the Lord says that you can lose your salvation and that not all sins are forgiven. If you'll google David Wilkerson Quotes you'll find pages of them. He was a good pastor and a good man of God.

 

[Ribosome]

David Wilkerson recently passed on to Heaven, he was the founding pastor of Times Square Church and yes he gave some awesome sermons. The Pentecostal Churches tend to follow the Bible's teachings in Hebrews Chapter 10 regarding sin, so yes there is a willful sin, some call it apostasy, which there is no forgiveness for. "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins". So, the Word of the Lord says that you can lose your salvation and that not all sins are forgiven. If you'll google David Wilkerson Quotes you'll find pages of them. He was a good pastor and a good man of God.

what do you mean by willful sin? would it be like for example a christian deciding to go and steal a pack of gum from the store even though he knows its sin? would that sin be unforgivable? does that mean he lost his salvation?

or do you mean something else by "willfull sin"?

 

[LinkH]

hello, i have some basic questions about pentecostalism. a friend of mine likes times square church and wilkerson's sermons.

what does pentecostalism, specifically wilkerson/his church say about the following questions:

1. when a person TRUELY trusts in Christ for his salvation, are all his sins, including his future sins, forgiven?

I can't speak for the late David Wilkerson (who only recently passed away in an automobile accident), but I have never heard of a Pentecostal saying that Christ forgives ones future sins at the moment of salvation. I have heard other preachers say such things. I do not know why a preacher would have the gall to say such a thing either. I John shows us that if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Forgiveness for sins after salvation comes at/after confession, not at salvation. The idea that if a Christian sins that his sins were already forgiven in the past, and he doesn't need to confess, is not in the Bible and not consistent with the teachings of scripture.

Here is another passage to consider other things to consider:
Acts 8
13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.
(NIV)

Later, Simon Peter says to Simon,
22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.
(NIV)


Notice Peter didn't say, "You believed, so your past, present, and future sins have already been forgiven."

Christ paid for sin on the cross. The issue is when forgiveness for sins is applied/recieved.

 

[lilmissmontana]

hello, i have some basic questions about pentecostalism. a friend of mine likes times square church and wilkerson's sermons.

don't know about Times Square Church, but have listened to Wilkerson a number of times ... while I don't agree with everything he teaches, I find him to be a very faithful Christian that loves the Lord ... and overall I really enjoy and am edified by his sermons ...

what does pentecostalism, specifically wilkerson/his church say about the following questions:

1. when a person TRUELY trusts in Christ for his salvation, are all his sins, including his future sins, forgiven?

trying to sort out that thought ... it doesn't feel right to me ... I'm of the mindset that one of the things that goes with us is unforgven sin ... because sin can't be where God is, it must be dealt with ... orsuch ... I'd be more inclined to word that 'when a person truly accepts Christ for his salvation the door to forgiveness is always open' ... God has conditions on most promises ... one of them frequently is repent and sin no more ... it can't possibly be good to accept Salvation and then go around sinning because, hey, all sin is forgiven ... also hard to believe that someone that truly believes would even entertain using that as an excuse ... seems to feel like that ... an excuse to do whatever ... never heard Wilkerson speak this thought ... will have to think on it some more ... trying to understand how someone could come to this conclusion ... maybe something more to it than is written here ...

2. can a born again christian loose his salvation? if yes, then how?

if you could provide links or quotes from wilkerson or his church that would be even better.

no ... I don't believe one can lose Salvation ... Jesus is Salvation and He doesn't get lost ... we are called in His time ... He doesn't make mistakes ... if we are saved, then we are saved ... Jesus is the Door ... and it's always open ... but, I believe we can fall so far we fall right straight into hell ... there's no such thing as a free license to sin ... sin is not of the Lord ...

anyway ... jmo
lilmiss

 

[Ribosome]

what would you say about the following scenario:

a born-again christian commits a sin but does not have time to repent because he gets killed in an accident. was his sin forgiven? or did he go to hell?

cause im hearing here that if a born again christian commits a sin, that sin is not forgiven until he repents. so from this i assume that if a sin is not forgiven, that means the person is going to hell, so that means that the christian lost his salvation and needs to regain it again by repenting. is this what pentecostalism teaches?

 

[Buzzy]

I know that in the last hundred years "willful sin" has been taken to mean apostasy but back less than 100 years after Jesus died for our sins it was much more simple. Personally I tend to believe that what they believed closer to Jesus was much better than what we believe after thousands of years of people wanting a "get out of hell free card". I'm not going to play around and assume I can sin all I want and still go to heaven but if you want to gamble your eternity and worship Lucifer with your sins go right ahead.

 

[Ribosome]

I know that in the last hundred years "willful sin" has been taken to mean apostasy but back less than 100 years after Jesus died for our sins it was much more simple. Personally I tend to believe that what they believed closer to Jesus was much better than what we believe after thousands of years of people wanting a "get out of hell free card". I'm not going to play around and assume I can sin all I want and still go to heaven but if you want to gamble your eternity and worship Lucifer with your sins go right ahead.

i didnt state my beliefs in this thread, but dont worry, i dont believe salvation means that you can go and sin all you want. anyone who thinks that way is not a born again christian and does not know god.

the doctrine of justification by faith means that we are saved SOLELY by faith in christ, and a born again, regenerated, christian will hate his sin and will strive to be free from it. however, christians fail all the time, and if anyone thinks that they are holy and perfect, they are not. god does not condemn a person to hell everytime a christian fails and commits a sin. the person does not go through endless cycles of losing salvation and being saved again. a christian who sins will repent soon because he loves god and because he was saved by god, he does NOT repent to regain or maintain his salvation. he repents because of sorrow for having gone against what his heavenly father told him to do. he does not repent because he is condemned by god to hell again and needs to regain his salvation. a born again christian loves god, and does not want to dissapoint him, but always wants to please him. however, he is not perfect and fails, but god does not condemn him again and again to hell for his mistakes. as long as the person truelly trusts his salvation to christ, he is saved, and if he truelly trusts his salvation to christ, that means he will be his bondservant, and will hate sin and will want to please him and not sin and repent when he does sin. if he claims to trust christ, but loves sin, he is not a christian.

this is what i believe FYI. but its not important, i am not here to debate who is wrong or right, i just want to know the pentecostal view on this. i will not debate the pentecostal view, i just want to know what it is.

 

[lilmissmontana]

what would you say about the following scenario:

a born-again christian commits a sin but does not have time to repent because he gets killed in an accident. was his sin forgiven? or did he go to hell?

cause im hearing here that if a born again christian commits a sin, that sin is not forgiven until he repents. so from this i assume that if a sin is not forgiven, that means the person is going to hell, so that means that the christian lost his salvation and needs to regain it again by repenting. is this what pentecostalism teaches?

I'm going to post the very first thought that came to my head immediately when I read your post ...

I was reminded of the verse that says what isn't dealt with here will be dealt with there ... can't give you a scripture refernce offhand or the exact wording because it's not one I've had much need to examine ... will try to find it ... at any rate, that's what came to my mind ... and it seems right ... what I do know is that the Lord makes a way for us ... it's just our choice ... other than that I don't know what else to say on it ... ty for the opportunity to think about this ...

 

[LinkH]

cause im hearing here that if a born again christian commits a sin, that sin is not forgiven until he repents. so from this i assume that if a sin is not forgiven, that means the person is going to hell, so that means that the christian lost his salvation and needs to regain it again by repenting. is this what pentecostalism teaches?

There are Pentecostals who agree with that and Pentecostals who disagree.

What I disagreed with was the idea that all our future sins are forgiven when we become believers, because that contradicts scripture. I did not say if you commit a sin and die you go to Hell. The end of I Corinthians11 comes to mind where some people had gone to 'sleep' because of not rightly regarding the Lord's body, yet they were being chastised so that they might not be condemned with the world.

 

[Cribstyl]

Everyone who dares to post a response will probably take some criticism by someone with a differing opinion.

That could be healthy if we remember to be considerate and remember that we're not always clear as we think we are.
Let's keep in mind that P/AOG is dedicated to fellowship and not to be ovewhelmed by divisive debate.



Respectfully, we'd prefur if people without a Pentecostal icon to not initiate threads that debate our church doctrines in this forum.
We love ya all.
Smooches

 

[stormdancer0]

what would you say about the following scenario:

a born-again christian commits a sin but does not have time to repent because he gets killed in an accident. was his sin forgiven? or did he go to hell?

cause im hearing here that if a born again christian commits a sin, that sin is not forgiven until he repents. so from this i assume that if a sin is not forgiven, that means the person is going to hell, so that means that the christian lost his salvation and needs to regain it again by repenting. is this what pentecostalism teaches?

Throwing in my 2 cents worth.

There is a difference between sin and iniquity. Everyone sins, with our thoughts, our actions, or our lack of action. Iniquity is a pattern of deliberate sin. I don't think in your example that sin would send a believer to hell.

However, I do believe that you can walk away from your salvation. I believe you can deliberately and consciously turn your back on God, and walk away. This is a result of loving iniquity more than God. After all, Judas was given the same anointing that the other disciples were. He was a loyal follower, until he walked away, treasuring money or gain more than Jesus.

This is my opinion, and I know others disagree. I respect their opinions, and actually pray they are right, because several loved ones came to Christ, then deliberately walked away, and I would love to know they are still saved.

 

[Ribosome]

Everyone who dares to post a response will probably take some criticism by someone with a differing opinion.

That could be healthy if we remember to be considerate and remember that we're not always clear as we think we are.
Let's keep in mind that P/AOG is dedicated to fellowship and not to be ovewhelmed by divisive debate.



Respectfully, we'd prefur if people without a Pentecostal icon to not initiate threads that debate our church doctrines in this forum.
We love ya all.
Smooches

as i've mentioned in my post, i am not here to debate. i am curios about pentecostalism and would like to know what it says about the issue i brought up. i am not here to convince others that they are wrong or right. all i wanted is for people to say what they believe, and help me to understand their beliefs.

 

[Cribstyl]

hello, i have some basic questions about pentecostalism. a friend of mine likes

and wilkerson's sermons.

what does pentecostalism, specifically wilkerson/his church say about the following questions:

1. when a person TRUELY trusts in Christ for his salvation, are all his sins, including his future sins, forgiven?

2. can a born again christian loose his salvation? if yes, then how?

if you could provide links or quotes from wilkerson or his church that would be even better.

google Times Square Church and read from their statement of faith.

In the fall and sinfulness of man and that the only means of being cleansed from sin is through repentance and faith in the redeeming blood of Christ.

This statement of faith above explains that fallen man is sinful, but sins are cleansed through repentance and faith in the blood.



Many Penticostal claims these scriptures below.

Assurance of Salvation
Eph 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:


deliverance from temptation
1Cr 10:13There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

forgiveness of sin

1Jo 1:9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Ribosome]

In the fall and sinfulness of man and that the only means of being cleansed from sin is through repentance and faith in the redeeming blood of Christ.

This statement of faith above explains that fallen man is sinful, but sins are cleansed through repentance and faith in the blood.

yes, i saw their website and read that statement of faith. but what does that phrase really mean? is the cleansing of sins that is necessary for salvation a one time event at regeneration and new birth, or does the person keep losing and regaining his salvation after every sin he commits and every repentance that follows?

 

[Cribstyl]

yes, i saw their website and read that statement of faith. but what does that phrase really mean? is the cleansing of sins that is necessary for salvation a one time event at regeneration and new birth, or does the person keep losing and regaining his salvation after every sin he commits and every repentance that follows?

The new birth is not only a new beginning, it's also an adoption, and God does not reject us when we fall. So, no God does not have to adopt us over and over. Once we become a child of God we dont automatically become perfect and never sin. According to the scriptures, given to you by LinkH and myself, this text is written to the saved not the sinners. 1Jo 1:9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
John's letter is written to believers. We should not sin, but if we sin, we have a high preist ready to intercede for us. The scriptures teach, that He was bruised for our transgressions.
1Jo 2:1¶My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

When we look from God's persepective, we can see that only He knows everyone who will be saved in the end. When we look at what God has provided for man to be saved, we can see in our lives an ongoing struggle with sin. We can also see in our live a fight against the enemy of our soul. We can also see a race to the end of our live. According to scriptures many will lose that fight.

I did attempt to answer your question about the statement of faith:
In the fall and sinfulness of man and that the only means of being cleansed from sin is through repentance and faith in the redeeming blood of Christ.

This statement of faith above explains that fallen man is sinful, but sins are cleansed through repentance and faith in the blood.

From my perspective the deals with your initial question about once saved always saved, by saying forgiveness is available for those who repent.

Respectfully

 

[lilmissmontana]

Throwing in my 2 cents worth.

There is a difference between sin and iniquity. Everyone sins, with our thoughts, our actions, or our lack of action. Iniquity is a pattern of deliberate sin. I don't think in your example that sin would send a believer to hell.

However, I do believe that you can walk away from your salvation. I believe you can deliberately and consciously turn your back on God, and walk away. This is a result of loving iniquity more than God. After all, Judas was given the same anointing that the other disciples were. He was a loyal follower, until he walked away, treasuring money or gain more than Jesus.

This is my opinion, and I know others disagree. I respect their opinions, and actually pray they are right, because several loved ones came to Christ, then deliberately walked away, and I would love to know they are still saved.

very good post ... I forgot to add about the other kinds of sins ... there are also sins of innocense ... sins of youth, etc. ... I agree, stormy ... 100 percent .. the door to salvation remains open ... the choice is ours ...

when reading your post I was reminded of the verse that says someting like woe to those who know and turn away ... (very poor wording ... just popping in) ... for me that means with knowledge comes accountability ...

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Since dave Wilkerson was Assemblies of God, and stuck pretty close to the Assemblies of God denomination (Assemblies of God (USA) Official Web Site) they're pretty representative of His "belief package" and the times Square statement of belief matches closely.And of the majority of Pentecostalism as a whole.

Note - Pentecostals in general and Wilkerson in particular are "Trinitarians". The "Oneness Pentecostals" are a very divergent group that follows their own track (and often think they're the ONLY Christians).


"1. when a person TRUELY trusts in Christ for his salvation, are all his sins, including his future sins, forgiven?"

You can't be forgiven of something that you haven't done, of course!

Salvation isn't a "One ZAP Blanket coverage" - it's a living relationship with the Lord. WHEN you sin, you Repent of it, are forgiven, and the sin is forgotten. IF you try to "Justify yourself" - then there's no restoration of relationship until you stop that foolishness.

"2. can a born again christian loose his salvation? if yes, then how?"

There is Biblical Indication that salvation CAN be lost. Generally the "Mechanism" is simple neglect. One simply gets busy with "other things", and gradually falls away - until there's nothing left that could be called "Faith" any longer.

Probably nothing "Kills" a relationship with the Lord more quickly that un-forgiveness against another. This, even when it's THEIR fault, is still YOUR responsibility to tear up the I.O.U. and release them - and yourself from that trap.

It's my EXPERIENCE (as one who did "fall away") that God DOES send "wake up calls" (sometimes pretty brutal ones) to Get the attention of the backslider.

 

[stormdancer0]

I don't think that one can "slip away" from God, or simply be too busy, and lose salvation. I believe it has to be a deliberate turning away, a person saying, "I know what Jesus did for me. But I choose to follow the world."