Time of the Exodus

[gideon123]

I am posting this as a new thread, but it is also a continuation of the discussion (earlier) ... was the Exodus in 2450 BC?

I believe the answer is NO ... the Exodus was not in 2450 BC. And I will explain why in a minute. But it is worthwhile to comment - why do we get the "impression" that the Exodus was in the years 2450 BC? That time in Egypt was the time of the Old Kingdom. It was a time when Egypt was very prosperous. The Pharaohs ruled with great power, and it was a very active time for the building of pyramids. Therefore, when Hollywood movies show the ancient Israelites, they love to depict the Israelites as slaves building the pyramids and Pharaoh as a mighty emperor. The idea is tempting, and great for film-making, but it is wrong.

How do we know that 2450 BC is wrong?

Let's take a look at Exodus 14:7. The king of Egypt sent 600 of his best chariots. The meaning of the Bible is clear. The ancient Israelites were not stupid, and they most certainly knew what a chariot was. Furthermore - the chariot army was a fearsome weapon, capable of grinding the Israelites into the dust. They were terrified for good reason! Later, in Exodus 15:19 we read again ... when the Pharaoh's horses and chariots went into the sea, the Lord brought the waters of the sea back over them. It is very clear that chariots were present in this incident.

So here is the point ... the Egyptian army did not have chariots until the Second Intermediate Period in 1650-1550 BC. Before that time there were NO chariots. Indeed, the Egyptians did not invent chariots. They came from the Hyskos people who invaded Egypt after the 13'th dynasty. However, during the Hyskos invasion, Egypt was disorganized and forced into retreat (at Thebes). Therefore, the government of the Pharaoh did not really recover until the New Kingdom in 1550-1069 BC.

Practically ... this means that the Exodus could not possibly have happened around 2450 BC, and probably not in 1650-1550 BC either. More likely it was 1550-1069 BC.

Therefore the date suggested by "Conservatives" ... perhaps 1446 BC, seems entirely consistent with the Biblical account of the chariots of Egypt.

What we DO have to give up ... is the notion that the Israelites were involved as slaves in building the great pyramids. THEY WERE NOT. And this does not contradict the Bible - because the Bible never stated this. It is a Hollywood illusion. Certainly the Israelites were slaves, and probably stone masons. They probably constructed public buildings and fortresses, but not pyramids.

Therefore, there is no gap in Biblical history. There is no missing period of "1000 years". But we need to modify our notions about which period of Egyptian history encompassed the Exodus. It was not the age of the great pyramids, but a time much later than this.

Regards,
Gideon

 

[Willie T]

And this makes some kind of difference, how?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What we DO have to give up ... is the notion that the Israelites were involved as slaves in building the great pyramids.

In the last century, I never once (from tens of thousands of fellowships , writings, references, bible studies, church services, etc etc etc ) heard anyone
say that
that happened.
I don't have to give it up,
I never heard it and never believed it.

 

[mimitalks]

Gideon, I viewed earlier today a documentary on Netflix called Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus. Maybe a God thing that I was led to view the forum and saw your post? Regardless, you may want to check this out: Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus | You never know where a crises of faith will lead you

 

[gideon123]

Thanks for the replies. My answers.

Willie T. I think it is important that history should agree with the Bible. If God speaks the truth, then the things we find in archaeology should clearly show this. I understand that scientists do not have a clear view of history - because many things cannot be known. But if a glaring inconsistency is exposed, that would be a problem for us. Some people have argued, the time of the Exodus might have been closer to 2500BC. I am pointing out reasons, based on observed data, why that it not true. Therefore, the view held by people who carefully count the years in the Old Testament appears to be consistent with the evidence.

Yeshua ... I agree. I have never heard a scholar say that the Israelites were connected with the pyramids. I think it's a more subtle thing - impressions in peoples' minds. Maybe too many movies by Charlton Heston

Mimitalks - thanks. I will take a look. But the argument about the chariots is a pretty strong argument for the timing of the Exodus.

 

[Erik Nelson]

There are obvious striking parallels with the Monotheistic faith of Akhenaten of the Amarna period in the 14th century BC under the XVIII dynasty. Some have even identified Joseph with the powerful vizier Yuya who married into the dynasty such that the monotheistic Pharaoh Akhenaten was his descendant.

The name "Moses" was very popular under the ensuing xenophobic XIX dynasty in the 13th century BC:

• Ra-moses ("born of Ra", Ramses)
• Amun-moses ("born of Amun", Amenmesse)

Pharaoh Ramses II is strongly suggested by the Biblical account:

• traditional Jewish memory has always viewed Rameses II as the Pharaoh of oppression
  
• treasure cities of On, Pithom ("house of Atum", Per-Atum) and Ramses
• he reigned 80 years, consistent with Moses growing to age 40, then hiding in exile for 40 more years before the powerful, oppressing Pharaoh passed away
• his successor, Merneptah, acknowledges sending out a force against "Israel" in his 5th year (Merneptah stele) circa 1208 BC, and his reign ended in chaos

It is a true fact that the Koran claims Pharaoh had a chief advisor named something like "Haman" or "Aman", which could possibly be a reference to Amenmesse who succeeded Merneptah, briefly in southern Egypt, during the period of political chaos after Merneptah's reign. The Koran also claims that the plagues on Egypt lasted several years, consistent with Moses returning to Egypt circa 1212 BC, after Pharaoh Ramses II was no longer on the throne... the plagues begin and persist for several years... until the [children of] Israel escaped and were pursued in 1208 BC...

Biblical archeology confirms early Israelite square houses & culture entering into Canaan beginning around 1200 BC...

It all appears to line up -- traditional Jewish memory, Biblical archeology, Egyptian archeology, even the "Midianite memories" apparently preserved in northwestern Arabia and the Koran

 

[SuperCow]

It only appears to line up if you accept your facts and ignore the Biblical narrative entirely. It's a simple process to count backwards from the destruction of Jerusalem in 587 BC to the date of the Exodus. To get to 1208 BC as the date of the Exodus, you'd have to junk 250 years of Biblical history either in Kings, or ignore 1 Kings 6:1 and compress the judges to a few generations in length. There is some inconsistency between that scripture and the Judges timeline, but that would merely add another 100 years, pushing it back to the mid-1500s BC.

But I would hesitate to consider this anyway when even the other facts or incorrect. Ramesses II reigned for 66 years, not 80. It would be difficult for Mernepteh to lead an expedition into Israel since he reigned for 10 years and Israel was wandering the desert for 40 years. Canaan would still be there.

Traditional Jewish memory does not specify Ramesses II as the oppressor. Their writings are as divided on the subject as we are today. Flavius Josephus, with access to Jewish writings around 100AD, picked Ahmose I as the Pharaoh of the Exodus. Egyptian and Biblical archaeology do not agree either, so having such certainty about things lining up seems kind of ludicrous. If you junk wholesale parts of the Bible, then why even believe the story is real in the first place. Secularists certainly don't.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Ramseese is Shishak of the bible the invader of Israel in the period of Rehobaom reign as king. The choosing of Ramseese as the Pharoah of the exodus is by linking Shishak and Shoshank as the same Pharoah. This then allows secular scholars to dismiss the exodus a myth because they do not find any evidence at the time of Ramseese because he was to strong. Champolian, the man who translated the Rosetta stone, was the one who made this link, it was an error right at the beginning of field of study.

 

[SuperCow]

This is the view of David Rohl in "A Test of Time", which outlines why the 3rd intermediate period of Egypt is messed up historically. If you're into Egyptian history, you should also try to find a copy of Donovan Courville's "The Exodus Problem and It's Ramifications", which covers the entirety of Egypt's 30 dynasties relative to the Bible. (It's a rare book that can be difficult to find) Some differences in their timeline though:

Shishak: (Rohl: Ramesses II) (Courville: Thutmose III)
Pharaoh allied with Solomon: (Rohl: Horemheb) (Courville: Thutmose I)

Both place the Exodus at the beginning of the 2nd intermediate period; however, Rohl discounts the Bible before this point, relegating it to legendary status before this point, roughly equating it's accuracy to that of ancient Babylon or Sumeria. Courville sees the middle kingdom as partly contemporaneous to the old kingdom. (Pharaoh's ruling from different regions. eg. Memphis in lower Egypt vs. Thebes in upper Egypt)

 

[Adventist Heretic]

This is the view of David Rohl in "A Test of Time", which outlines why the 3rd intermediate period of Egypt is messed up historically. If you're into Egyptian history, you should also try to find a copy of Donovan Courville's "The Exodus Problem and It's Ramifications", which covers the entirety of Egypt's 30 dynasties relative to the Bible. (It's a rare book that can be difficult to find) Some differences in their timeline though:

Shishak: (Rohl: Ramesses II) (Courville: Thutmose III)
Pharaoh allied with Solomon: (Rohl: Horemheb) (Courville: Thutmose I)

Both place the Exodus at the beginning of the 2nd intermediate period; however, Rohl discounts the Bible before this point, relegating it to legendary status before this point, roughly equating it's accuracy to that of ancient Babylon or Sumeria. Courville sees the middle kingdom as partly contemporaneous to the old kingdom. (Pharaoh's ruling from different regions. eg. Memphis in lower Egypt vs. Thebes in upper Egypt)

I think you have some of Rohl's work wrong. I just watched his presentation on this and he state that Shishak is the Pharaoh that invaded Israel under Rehoboam the son of Solomon. He is where I got the Ideas from. Rohl does not discount the bible he says the exodus happened just not on the scale that is written in the bible. l He says "bring me some eveidence, bring me a chariot wheel and i will believe you"

 

[Mosheli]

... was the Exodus in 2450 BC?

I believe the answer is NO ... the Exodus was not in 2450 BC. ....

How do we know that 2450 BC is wrong?

Firstly you do not say who suugests that the exodus was in 2450 bc? I assume you are refering to Courville's placement of the exodus in the 6th dynasty of ancient Egypt which has an ascribed conventional date of "2345-2181" bc, or Hoeh's placement of the exodus in the 5th dynasty with conventional date of "2494-2345", or a theory based on the Koran that it was in the 4th dynasty of "2613-2494" bc.
If one accepts these conventional dates then the exodus of ca 1400s in the bible can't be that early unless one uses the 880 yrs from exodus to Solomon in some Septuagint versions.
However, the conventional dates of the Egyptian dynasties are certainly too long/old when compared with sources like the Bible and Herodotus, so the true dates of the dynasties will be some hundreds of years lower than the conventional dates.

It was a time when Egypt was very prosperous. The Pharaohs ruled with great power, and it was a very active time for the building of pyramids. Therefore, when Hollywood movies show the ancient Israelites, they love to depict the Israelites as slaves building the pyramids and Pharaoh as a mighty emperor.

What we DO have to give up ... is the notion that the Israelites were involved as slaves in building the great pyramids. THEY WERE NOT. And this does not contradict the Bible - because the Bible never stated this. It is a Hollywood illusion. Certainly the Israelites were slaves, and probably stone masons. They probably constructed public buildings and fortresses, but not pyramids.

The idea that Hebrews built pyramids is seemingly based on theories that the pyramids could be Joseph's storehouses or the treasure cities of Exodus 1.
The pyramids of Egypt are all found in the 1st (one), 3rd (three), 4th (seven/eight), 5th (nine), 6th (four), 8th (one/two), 10th (one), 12th (nine), 13th (six/seven/eight), 18th (one) dynasties.
Some scholars and my own findings are that Joseph was in the 3rd-4th dynasty and Moses in the (6th? &/or) 12th dynasty, and it is quite possible for the Hebrews to have been connected with the building of th pyramids in both these periods.
Joseph's "eternal mountains" and lion of Judah in Genesis 49 may likely be pyramids and Sphinx. I found strong evidence for Jacob matching Khufu/Cheops the builder of the Great Pyramid of Giza. The word mastaba (precursor of pyramids) is also found in the bible.
The Hebrew slaves made bricks in Exodus 1, and brick buildings are especially prominent in the 1st Intermediate Period (7th-10th/11th dynasties) and Middle Kingdom (11th-12th dynasties) including the 12th dynasty pyramids.

Let's take a look at Exodus 14:7. The king of Egypt sent 600 of his best chariots. The meaning of the Bible is clear. The ancient Israelites were not stupid, and they most certainly knew what a chariot was. Furthermore - the chariot army was a fearsome weapon, capable of grinding the Israelites into the dust. They were terrified for good reason! Later, in Exodus 15:19 we read again ... when the Pharaoh's horses and chariots went into the sea, the Lord brought the waters of the sea back over them. It is very clear that chariots were present in this incident.

So here is the point ... the Egyptian army did not have chariots until the Second Intermediate Period in 1650-1550 BC. Before that time there were NO chariots. Indeed, the Egyptians did not invent chariots. They came from the Hyskos people who invaded Egypt after the 13'th dynasty. However, during the Hyskos invasion, Egypt was disorganized and forced into retreat (at Thebes). Therefore, the government of the Pharaoh did not really recover until the New Kingdom in 1550-1069 BC.

There are numerous reasons why Joseph and the exodus can't be during or after the Hyksos introduced chariots to Egypt (15th/16th dyn "1600s-1500s" bc). Firstly as we have already said the conventional dates of the dynasties are too long/old and the true dates will be at least 2 or more centuries lower.
Joseph is only 13th generation after the Flood, and Moses only "215" or 430 yrs after Joseph. To have Joseph not before Hyksos means squeezing 14 dynasties and the predynastic dynasties in to just 13 generations.
There are no matches for all the details of Joseph story and Exodus story in the dynasties below the 14th dynasty.

Herodotus says the chariots were lost in reign of Sesostris (12th dynasty).
There was a recent find some months ago which said "Old Kingdom (3rd-6th dynasties) leather fragments reveal how ancient Egyptians built their chariots" which some agree proves there were chariots before the Hyksos.
The Hebrew word translated "chariot" and "horse" might not even be translated correctly.

See my article on the chariots and horses of Genesis and Exodus here Pillars of the conventional chronology: 1 Chariots & horses (with additional part here Re: Pillars of the conventional chronology: 1 Chariots & horses)

Practically ... this means that the Exodus could not possibly have happened around 2450 BC, and probably not in 1650-1550 BC either. More likely it was 1550-1069 BC.

Therefore the date suggested by "Conservatives" ... perhaps 1446 BC, seems entirely consistent with the Biblical account of the chariots of Egypt.

The bible does agree with a date of ca 1400s bc (480 yrs before Solomon of 1000s/900s bc).
But we can't match this with conventional Egyptian dates of the dynasties because the conventional Egyptian dates are too long/old. If one just takes biblical 1400s bc and matches with conventional dates you'd have exodus in 18th dynasty, but there is scanty evidence for exodus then and itis too late in overall Egyptian dynastic history, and we know that since conventional dates are too long/old that the true date of the 18th dynasty must be 2 or more centuries lower and the exodus must be some centuries before the 18th dynasty.

Therefore, there is no gap in Biblical history. There is no missing period of "1000 years". But we need to modify our notions about which period of Egyptian history encompassed the Exodus. It was not the age of the great pyramids, but a time much later than this.

There is nothing wrong with the Bible's history, but the conventional biblical dates are too low/short, eg they have exodus in "1200s" bc yet bible has it 480 yrs before Solomon of 900s/1000s bc. (Though they try to get around this by saying 480 yrs may be 12 generations.)
But Egyptian history is too long/old.
When we shorten Egyptian history and unshorten Biblical (or when we move back biblical events to earlier dynasties than the conventional) then we find Biblical & Egyptian history match.

Two good example evidences that conventional Egyptian dates are too old/long are Shiphrah of Exodus 1 and Jabin of Judges.

Shiphrah in Exodus is ca 1491 (480 yrs before Solomon of "1000s/900s" bc).
Spra in Egyptian 12th dyn is "1745" bc.
Which shows that Egyptian chronology is about 300-400 yrs too long at the time of the 12th dynasy.

Jabin of Hazor is ca 1300s in Judges (not "late 1200s" or "1125" as in conventional chronology).
Ibni(-Addad) / Yabni-Hadad of Hazor is ca "1796-1780" bc or "18th" century bc (Akadian tablet in Mari letters).
Ibni(-Addi/Addu) is "1760s" or "18th-17th" cents bc (Hazor fragment).
And/or Yakbim of the 14th dynasty is "1805-1780" bc.
Which shows that Mesopotamian chronology is about 400 yrs out at the time of Mari letters.
(Though there is also a "Qishon of Ybn" in a topographical list of Ramses 2 "1303-1273" bc.)

Conventional:
11th/12th dyn - patriarchs
Abraham/Amraphel - Larsa, Babylon 1
15th/16th dyn Hyksos - Jacob/Joseph 1700s bc
18th dyn Amarna - Israel not yet in Canaan
19th dyn Ramses 2 - Raamses, Moses, exodus "1200s" bc
19th dyn Merneptah - Israel in Palestine
20th dyn - Saul/Philistines
21st dyn - David 1000s bc
22nd dyn Sheshonk 1 - Shishak
22nd dyn - Zerah
22nd or 25th dyn Osorkhon IV or Sabaco - So
25th dyn - Tirhakah
26th dyn - Nechoh 600 bc

Courville:
1st & 3rd dyns
2nd & 4th dyns
2nd & 5th & 12th dyns - Joseph
215 yrs
6th & 12th-13th dyns - Moses/exodus
Joshua - Hittites - end EBA
FIP/7th-10th dyns & SIP/14th-17th dyns/Hyksos - Judges
15th/16th dyn vs 18th dyn - Saul
18th-19th dyns - Saul-Hosea
18th dyn Hatshepsut - Sheba
18th dyn Thutmose I - Solomon/Gezer
18th dyn Tuthmosis III - Shishak
24th dyn
25th dyn
26th dyn
Persians

Rohl:
Cush - Uruk 1 dyn
Babel - Eridu dyn
Nimrod - Uruk 1 dyn
9th/10th dyn - Abraham 1853
Amraphel, Arioch - Ur 3 dyn, Zariku
(11th &/or) 12th dyn - Joseph 1670
12th-13th dyn 223 yrs in Egypt 1670-1447
13th dyn - Pharaoh who knew not Joseph 1568-1563
(12th &/or) 13th dyn - Moses/exodus 1530-1447
15th/16th dyn - Joshua/Anakim 1416-1385
18th dyn Amarna - Saul, David 1022-1007
18th dyn Horemhab - Solomon/Gezer 990-962
19th dyn Ramses 2 - Shishak 943-877
19th-20th dyn Irsu/Osarsiph - Arza/Asa/Elah/Zimri
21st & 22nd dyns contemp (gap in Apis bulls 20th/21st-22nd dyn, Osorkhon II before Psusennes I)
25th dyn - Tirhakah 690-664

James:
20th dyn Ramses 3 - Shishak/Rehoboam
20th dyn - Zerah/Asa

Velikovsky:
13th dyn - exodus
15th/16th dyn Hyksos - Amalekites, Judges
15th/16th & 18th dyn - Saul/Agag
18th dyn Tuthmosis I - Solomon/Gezer
18th dyn Hatshepsut - Sheba/Solomon
18th dyn Tuthmosis 3 - Shishak/Rehoboam
18th dyn Amenhotep 2 - Zerah/Asa
18th dyn Amarna - Jehoshaphat/Ahab/Jehoram/Arza
19th dyn Ramses 2 - Nechoh
19th dyn Merneptah - Hophra
22nd dyn Sosenq 1 - So
19th/20th dyn Sea Peoples - Persians

Mine:
1st (or 2nd) dyn - Abraham
(2nd? &/or) 3rd-4th (&/or 5th?) dyn - Joseph/Jacob ca 1800s bc
(6th? &/or) 12th (&/or 13th?) dyn - Moses/exodus ca 1400s bc
14th or 17th - Jabin/Sisera
18th dyn Amarna - David, Agur ben Jakeh of Proverbs 1000s bc
19th dyn Ramses 2 - Shishak 900s/1000s bc
19th dyn - Zerah?
20th dyn Ramses 3 & Sea Peoples - Asa? or Jehoram? or Ahaz?
21st &/or 22nd dyn - Zoan & Noph?
21st or 22nd or 25th dyn - So
22nd/23rd or 25th dyn - Tirhakah
26th dyn - Nechoh, Hophra

 

[Mosheli]

Rohl does not discount the bible he says the exodus happened just not on the scale that is written in the bible. l He says "bring me some evidence, bring me a chariot wheel and i will believe you"

I like Rohl's new chronology on Moses, David, Shishak, and he deserves credit for it. But I don't like his views on Goshen, Raamses, the exodus, "Red Sea" crossing, Mt Sinai.

The chariots parts and bones have been found in the gulf of Aqaba nearby Nuweiba where there are also one or two pillars marking the exit &/or entrance points on either side of the Passage/Crossing area, but Rohl still doesn't believe, he claims they are fakes planted by Wyatt who he is very anti. Also he says "bring me some evidence", but he is perfectly able to go and look for himself if he really wanted to. They always wrongly put all the burden/onerous on the other side, and they always claim they are fakes etc. If they really were genuine they are able to go and check for themselves but they always use excuses like "costs too much", "not worth it unless convincing evidence", "international access permissions problems". The truth is they don't really want to prove it (or not if it is someone else's discovery, only if/when they can get all the credit).
Rohl is not a believer so although he believes the bible's history to be somewhat true he doesn't wholly believe it is all true.

 

[SuperCow]

I think you have some of Rohl's work wrong. I just watched his presentation on this and he state that Shishak is the Pharaoh that invaded Israel under Rehoboam the son of Solomon. He is where I got the Ideas from. Rohl does not discount the bible he says the exodus happened just not on the scale that is written in the bible. l He says "bring me some eveidence, bring me a chariot wheel and i will believe you"

I didn’t say Rohl discounts the Bible, but he does not ascribe to it credibility beyond what would be expected by any other ancient documents. If you read his other books, where he tries to back to even earlier times, he believes the genealogy in Genesis 5 to be synonymous with tribes. (eg. Adamites) He thinks the flood to be a catastrophic super-local flood like the breaking open of the Bosporus strait in Turkey which flooded huge areas under the Black Sea, which drove the clan from Adam to Eden. In other words, the early Biblical history is an echo of the stories taught by someone around the time of Abraham, or later.

Rohl’s books are very interesting, and some of his work, like pinpointing Eden, or his linguistic transfer of the Sumerian king list to some of the early Bible characters is quite remarkable, but I think his effort to stay credible on both sides of the archaeological argument (between secularists and creationists)
sometimes clouds his judgement.

Courville on the other hand was unapologetically on the side that the Bible’s history was accurate above anything else, and this perhaps caused him to overlook a few possibilities where the Biblical text might be open to alternative interpretations.

 

[CatsRule2020]

I tend to think of the Pharoah Amenhotep I when the Exodus is discussed. In the upper dating case, this Egyptian king 'disappeared' (though an empty burial tomb was built for him) in 1526. He had only one child. An infant son who had died. He had a magician who said that he had worked for Amenhotep I for 12 years. Some of the sayings attributed to him are- 'The bull who conquers the lands' and 'He who inspires great terror.
His sarcophagus was not decorated as one of royalty which was extremely unusual.

If we subtract 40 years from the year of his 'disappearances' it comes very close to the date of the destruction of Jericho- 1486 B.C.

 

[SuperCow]

If one accepts these conventional dates then the exodus of ca 1400s in the bible can't be that early unless one uses the 880 yrs from exodus to Solomon in some Septuagint versions.

Could you please point out for me the Septuagint versions that say 880 years? Every version I am aware of specifies 440 years, compared to the Masoretic 480 years.

Personally, I think both are incorrect, as the calculation of the Judges timeline is about 100 years longer, which also correlates with the apostle Paul’s calculations in Acts 13:18-21 where he preaches of a timeline of 530 years from the Exodus to the end of the reign of King Saul.

 

[Mosheli]

Could you please point out for me the Septuagint versions that say 880 years? Every version I am aware of specifies 440 years, compared to the Masoretic 480 years.

Personally, I think both are incorrect, as the calculation of the Judges timeline is about 100 years longer, which also correlates with the apostle Paul’s calculations in Acts 13:18-21 where he preaches of a timeline of 530 years from the Exodus to the end of the reign of King Saul.

I'm not sure which versions of the Septuagint, I'll have to ask Robert Palmer who was the one who told me and get back to you if/when he answers. If I remember correctly he implied it was some older versions and that they changed them to all read 440. It was something to do with signs in the Lxx text versions indicating that it was double 400 and double 40, and his theory is that the Massoretic retained the double 40 but not the double 400.

I'm not adverse to the period from exodus to Solomon/temple possibly being longer like 530 yrs, but I tend to favour the Massoretic 480 yrs. Acts 13's words are not certain what period the 450 yrs applies to (time in Egypt plus wilderness, or between Joshua and judges, or from Judges 1 to Samuel), and/or whether it includes or excludes the 40 yrs in wilderness and 40 yrs of Saul. But at least we agree it is not shorter than 480/440 yrs and so even if Shishak were Sheshonk/Sosenq I and even if one accepted the conventional Egyptian chronology dynasties dates (both of which I don't accept though) then the exodus can't be as late as 19th dynasty of "1200s" bc as conventional scholars hold.

These are all the claimed lengths of the period from exodus to Solomon/temple in different ancient and modern sources:
12 generations exodus to temple (Conventional)
30 yrs Joshua (Palmer)
64 yrs Wilderness & Joshua (Oxford)
91 yrs Saul to Solomon (Palmer)
111 yrs oppression ('Judges')
113 years + the last 2 years of Saul (Palmer)
120 (40 + 40 + 40) yrs Saul to Solomon
134 (111 + 3 + 20) yrs oppressions Cushan to Philistines (torahtimes)
177/185 yrs Joshua to Cushan/Judges (Palmer)
264 yrs Moses to Sol (Oxford)
280 yrs Othniel to Samson (Oxford)
300 yrs Sihon to Jephthah (Judges, MT, Lxx)
332 + (40 + 25 & 40 + 40 + 3) 148 yrs = 480 Othniel to Samuel (Oxford)
352 + (40 + 25 & 20 + 40 + 3) 128 yrs = 480 Othniel to Samuel (Oxford)
406 yrs Exodus to David
410 yrs Othniel to Samson (Judges)
440 yrs exodus to Solomon (some Septuagint versions)
448 yrs Moses to Sol (Nennius)
450 yrs judges (Acts 13, Thiele, NWT)?
463 years Judges (Palmer)
474/476 yrs exode/Josh to Eli/Dav/Sol/temple (F Josephus)
479/480 yrs exodus to temple (Massoretic, Usher, Jerome)
496 years Judges (Palmer)
500 yrs Moses to Dave (Nennius)
515 yrs exode/Josh to Eli/Dav/Sol/temple (Josephus)
530 (40+ 450 + 40) [+ 40 + 4] yrs exodus to Saul (Acts 13)
533/535 yrs Othniel to Samuel/Saul (Palmer)
592 yrs exode/Josh to Eli/Dav/Sol/temple (Josephus)
594 (480 + 114) yrs (torahtimes)
612 yrs exode/Josh to Eli/Dav/Sol/temple (Josephus)
613 (480 + 134, 594 + 19) yrs (torahtimes)
624 yrs Othniel to Solomon
635 yrs judges (Palmer)
663 yrs Joshua to Solomon
703 yrs wilderness wandering to Solomon
880 yrs exodus to temple (some Septuagint versions, Palmer)

Seemingly matching similar lengths in Egyptian (in our scenario of exodus at end of 12th dynasty and Shishak as Ramses 2 of 19th dynasty) :
321-348 yrs Senusret III to Amenhotep I (Siriadic)
"Osiris came from Nubia in the 365th year of his reign accompanied by Horus, to chase Set out of Egypt".
393 years Hyksos driven out before Danaus/Hermeus (Manetho/Josephus).
400 yrs Hyksos king to 19th dyn king (San Tablet of 400 yrs).
500 yrs end of 12th dyn to Ramses 2 (conventional Egyptology).
500 yrs from Horus son of Tnahsit vs the chief magician of Pharaoh to 19th or 21st dyn (legend of Se-Osiris).
Hyksos 518 yrs (Manetho/Josephus).

* Some versions of Acts 13 seem to imply an extra 450 yrs inserted between Joshua and the Judges? or that the 450 yrs was roughly the 400 yrs in Egypt plus 40 yrs in wilderness.

 

[SuperCow]

I have worked over this timeline extensively. (For a book I am trying to get published.)

From the Exodus to Solomon:

40 years: Moses in the Wilderness (Exodus-Deuteronomy. Acts 13:18)
25-28 years: Joshua (exact timeline not clear in the Bible. years come from other Jewish sources)
8 years: Oppression by Aram (Judges 3:8)
40 years: Judge Othniel (Judges 3:11 - Nephew of Caleb)
18 years: Oppression by Moab (Judges 3:14)
80 years: Judge Ehud (Judges 3:30)
Unclear: Shamgar (Judges 3:31 - possibly overlapped with Ehud due to his age)
20 years: Oppression by Canaanites (Judges 4:3)
40 years: Judge Deborah (Judges 5:31)
7 years: Oppression by Midianites (Judges 6:1)
40 years: Judge Gideon (Judges 8:28)
3 years: Civil war with Abimelech (Judges 9:22)
23 years: Judge Tola (Judges 10:2)
22 years: Judge Jair (Judges 10:3)
18 years: Oppression by the Philistines (Judges 10:8)
6 years: Judge Jephthah (Judges 12:7)
7 years: Judge Ibzan (Judges 12:9)
10 years: Judge Elon (Judges 12:11)
8 years: Judge Abdon (Judges 12:14)
40 years: Oppression by the Philistines (Judges 13:1)
Judge Samson (Judges 16:31 - The context implies his 20 years overlapped the oppression)
40 years: Judge Eli (1 Samuel 4:18)
---------
498 years total (+/- a few years)

So you're already over 480 years at this point and you still have the overlapping period of Samuel/King Saul which is unclear, but is probably about 40 years combined. Then King David which is clear at 40 years, and then 4 years until the construction of the temple started in Solomon's reign. Based on this I'd say the most likely scenario is that the original number in 1 Kings 6:1 was probably 580, not 480.

Acts 13:20 is the only question mark from the apostle Paul's words, as the translations conflict:

NIV - "All this took about 450 years. After this God gave them judges until the time of Samuel the prophet."
KJV - "And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet."

NIV implies the 450 years starts from either the time Jacob's family went to Egypt, or when the promises were made to either Jacob, Isaac or Abraham. The KJV implies it is the time of the Judges. The NIV is favored no doubt, because it bypasses the problems of the 480 years of 1 Kings 6:1. However, Paul's logical (in the NIV) context is inconsistent in this case, because Paul gives 40 years before the judges, 40 years after the judges, but no timeline for the judges. In any event if he was referring back to the original covenant, which is the next likely context, then it should be 430 years + 40 = 470. (Notwithstanding the occasional claim that the 430 years is the time in Egypt, not the time in Egypt "and Canaan", as the LXX clarifies.) The math there is easy for Paul, so it wouldn't have to estimated. It makes much more sense the way it is printed in the KJV.

Then there is Judges 11:26 that claims that 300 years (which is obviously a rounded number mind you, since it should be about 347, but it quotes Jephthah's letter to the king of Ammon) had already passed from the battle in Numbers 21:25,26.

There's no indication in the Judges text that the years stated for the leaders terms were overlapping, with the exception of Samson who died ending the Philistine oppression.

 

[privatepop]

From Harold Camping's The Biblical Calendar of History

EVENT YEAR BC
Creation (about 13,000 yrs. Ago) 11013
Creation of Adam 11013
Birth of Seth. Adam was 130 when Seth was Born
(Gen. 5:3) 10883
Birth of Enos. Seth was 105 when Enos was born
(Gen. 5:6) 10778
End of Enos Period 905 yrs. after his birth, (Gen. 5:11)
which is the year Kenan was born and which began his period 9873
End of Kenan Period 910 yrs. after his birth (Gen. 5:14).
This is the year Mahalaleel was born and the beginning
of his period 8963
End of Mahalaleel Period 895 yrs. after his birth
(Gen. 5:17). This is the year Jared was born and
the beginning of his period 8068
End of Jared Period 962 yrs. after his birth
(Gen. 5:20). This is the year Enoch was born and
the beginning of his period 7106
End of Enoch Period 365 yrs. after his birth
(Gen. 5:23). This is the year Methuselah was born
and the beginning of his period 6741
End of Methuselah Period 969 yrs. after his birth
(Gen. 5:27). This is the year Lamech was born and the
beginning of his period 5772
Birth of Noah. Lamech was 182 when Noah was born
(Gen. 5:28-29) 5590
The Flood (about 7,000 years ago).
Noah was 600 when the flood came (Gen. 7:6) 4990
Death of Shem 502 years after the flood
(Gen. 11:10-11). This is the year Arphaxad was
born and the beginning of his period 4488
End of Arphaxad Period 438 years after his birth
(Gen. 11:12-13). This is the year Salah was
born and the beginning of his period 5050
End of Salah Period 433 years after his birth
(Gen. 11:14-15). This is the year Eber was born and
the beginning of his period 3617
End of Eber Period 464 years after his birth
(Gen. 11:16-17). This is the year Peleg was born and
the beginning of his period 3153
A Calendar of Events in Biblical History
13
Tower of Babel. During Peleg’s patriarchal period, the
division of the continents occurred. The Tower of Babel
must have been between these dates (Gen. 10:25) 3153-2914
End of Peleg Period 239 years after his birth
(Gen. 11:18-19). This is the year Reu was born and
the beginning of his period 2914
End of Reu Period 239 years after his birth
(Gen. 11:20-21). This is the year Serug was born and
the beginning of his period 2675
End of Serug Period 230 years after his birth
(Gen. 11:22-23). This is the year Nahor was born and
the beginning of his period 2445
End of Nahor Period 148 years after his birth
(Gen. 11:24-25). This is the year Terah was born
and the beginning of his period 2297
Birth of Abram to Terah. Terah was 130 yrs.
old at the birth of Abram 2167
Abram Entered Canaan 2092
Circumcision of Abram when he was 99 yrs. of age 2068
Birth of Isaac. Abraham was 100 yrs. of age at
the birth of Isaac (Gen. 21:5) 2067
Birth of Jacob. Isaac was 60 years old at birth of Jacob
(Gen. 25:26) 2007
1. Jacob arrives in Haran at the age of 60
2. Jacob works for seven years for Rachel and is
then married to Leah 67
3. Reuben is born to Leah the following year,
when Jacob is 68
4. Simeon is born to Leah when Jacob is 69
5. Levi is born to Leah when Jacob is 70
6. Jacob finishes his second seven-year contract
for Rachel when he is 74
7. Jacob works for wages for 20 yrs. In the 17th
year of this period, Joseph is born. Jacob is 91
8. At the end of the 20-yr. period, Joseph is weaned
and Jacob wishes to leaven Haran. He is 94
9. Jacob works for six years longer for his flocks
and leaves Haran at age 100
Jacob’s family arrives in Egypt when Jacob is 130
(Gen. 47:9) 1877
14
Historical Timetable of Pharaohs and Dynasties
1888 BC. Sesostris III became pharaoh. He was part of the Middle
Kingdom or 12th Dynasty of Egypt. His father, Sesostris II, probably
reigned during the previous 19 years and possibly came to an untimely
death.
1886 BC. Joseph became Prime Minister or Grand Vizier of Egypt under
Sesostris III.
1877 BC. The family of Joseph came to Egypt and took up residence in
the land of Goshen. The city of Avaris (Zoan in the Bible), which later
was called Tanis or Qantir, was the capital.
1850 BC. Sesostris III died after an exceedingly successful reign of 38
years. He was succeeded by another great 12th Dynasty pharaoh named
Amenemhet III. Under his reign Joseph continued as Prime Minister. A
canal bearing Joseph’s name was constructed at this time.
1806 BC. Joseph died.
1802 BC. Amenemhet III died after a 48-year reign. During his reign
Egypt was prosperous, tranquil, and productive. He was succeeded by
Amenemhet IV who reigned for 9 years. During his reign, there was
much internal strife for royal supremacy.
1791 BC. Amenemhet IV died and was succeeded by the last pharaoh
of the 12th Dynasty, Sebeknefrure.
1787 BC. Sebeknefrure’s reign of four years ended and with it ended
the 12th Dynasty. The 13th Dynasty began. The reigns of succeeding
The Chronological Sequence During the Egyptian Sojourn
Remember that the death year of one patriarch coincides with the
birth year of the next, so the result must look like this:
Levi’s time in Egypt (137 minus 60) 77 years
Kohath period of patriarchal leadership 133 years
Amram period of patriarchal leadership 137 years
Aaron age at the time of the Exodus (Exo. 7:7) 83 years
Total 430 years
15
pharaohs were short, and the empire began to dissolve. The Israelites,
who no doubt are the “Hyksos” of archaeological fame, took advantage
of the internal struggles to acquire a strong hand in the Egyptian government,
and indeed some of them may have reigned as pharaohs during
this period.
1580 BC. (approx.) Several dynasties have ruled over Egypt since 1787
BC. At this time, Ahmose I began to reign as the first king of the 18th
Dynasty. He forcibly began to remove the Israelites (Hyksos) from
political power. The most war-like Israelites were driven from the land,
and the Israelitish nation began to be severely oppressed. Either this
pharaoh or a closely succeeding pharaoh such as Thutmose I could
well have been the king who “did not know Joseph” (Exod. 1:8).
1560 BC. (approx.) Ahmose I was followed by his son Amenhotep I.
Amenhotep I consolidated the gains of his father.
1540-1535 BC. (approx.) Thutmose I began to reign as king. He, too,
was a continuation of the 18th Dynasty. He continued and probably
intensified the oppressive measures against the Israelites; he was ruling
when Moses was born. His animosity towards the Israelites was probably
heightened by his troubles with Palestine and Syria. His reign was
followed by that of his son Thutmose II.
1527 BC. Moses was born at a time when a royal edict condemned all
Hebrew boy babies to be destroyed. Princess Hatshepsut, a daughter of
the king, found Moses in the bulrushes and raised him as her son.
1501 BC. Thutmose III began to reign as the greatest king of the 18th
Dynasty. For approximately the first 25 years of his reign, he was coregent
with Princess Hatshepsut. She regarded herself as a king and
was the dominant ruler during this co-regency.
1487 BC. Moses fled from Egypt. King Hatshepsut, who had raised
Moses as her son, sought to kill him because of his evident loyalty for
the Israelites.
1481 BC. (approx.) King Hatshepsut died and Thutmose III continued
to reign until the time of the Exodus.
1447 BC. Israel went out of Egypt during the reign of Thutmose III.
The Exodus was after Israel had been in Egypt for 430 years (Gen.
12:40).
1407 BC. Israel’s entrance into Canaan.

 

[SuperCow]

Bizarre stretching of pre-Abrahamic history.

 

[Filippus]

Hi Gideon

Enjoyed reading your post. I agree that it is important that history should agree with the Bible, and it does.

Have you then identified a conflict in the notion that the Israelite's were slaves in Egypt? Can you expand on this?

Regarding the below dates, have you considered that the year from Creation 2454 equals 1496 BC on the Gregorian Calendar?

I have done my own calculations based on the bishop Ussher calculation for creation, I cheated by using Excel, but my calculations places Adam at 3950 BC and the Exodus on 1496 BC.

Regards,
Filip