Thy Kingdom Come

[Justme]

Hi water_ripple,

You wrote:

Neither has the new heaven and earth come..God has not wiped away all tears from our eyes...death still happens...everyone still experiences sorrow..everybody still cries..everyone still experiences pain..even Christians do..to say that one does not is a lie. People still get hurt..people still mourn and feel sorrow.. These things that are to come with the new heaven and earth have not yet come to pass...
*******************************

I take all of that to be the spiritual Heavenly life in the spiritual body that comes after the physical body. I assume there is no pain in Heaven, no sorrow,etc in Heaven. This Heavenly existance wasn't possible for mortal man prior to the cross and the ultimate sacrifice of Christ. There will always be death of mankind on planet earth as I read the sciptures, once one receives the reward of eternal life in Heaven they will not die again, there is no death in the spiritual, heavenly eternal life which follows the natural physical life.

Here again what scripture would not agree with that? Like what verses tell you that the new heaven and earth has NOT come to pass?

Justme

 

[Ben_Hur]

Hi Ben-Hur,

You didn't comment on Acts 10:40,41 and I would like to see your response tho that verse.

Act 10:40 but God raised Him up the third day and showed Him openly,

Act 10:41 not to all the people, but to witnesses hand-picked before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He rose from the dead.

I'm not sure I see your point here. He is eating and drinking, indicating his glorified body is very similar to ours, but solid and visible. So, are we in agreement there?

Concerning the time Jesus did come to earth after the ascension is describred here:
Acts 9

3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
5"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.
6"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."
7The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone

Your point about the cloud 'hiding' Jesus from their sight is correct as the verse states. However, it is made very clear that Jesus returns on a cloud or in a cloud. At any rate I would like to see a verse that says any physically visible Jesus Christ ever touches down to earth ever again after His ascension. Can you show me one? Here again, I'm not saying there isn't one, I just don't know of any.

Justme

Rev 19:11 And I saw Heaven opened. And behold, a white horse! And He sitting on him was called Faithful and True. And in righteousness He judges and makes war.

Rev 19:12 And His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head many crowns. And He had a name written, one that no one knew except Himself.

Rev 19:13 And He had been clothed in a garment dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15 And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike the nations. And He will shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16 And He has on His garment, and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Rev 19:17 And I saw one angel standing in the sun. And he cried with a great voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid-heaven, Come and gather together to the supper of the great God,

Rev 19:18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of commanders, and the flesh of strong ones, and the flesh of horses, and those sitting on them, and the flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth and their armies, being gathered to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 19:21 And the rest were slain by the sword of Him who sat on the horse, it proceeding out of His mouth. And all the birds were filled from their flesh.

Jesus appears out of Heaven (through what I believe to be a dimensional doorway..but that is another study). The kings of the earth are there, most likely on the ground, waiting for Him. Jesus uses his "sword" or words to speak them into defeat (or out of existance). He may be in the air, or on the ground, we don't know. But by the description, I would say He is visible.

I think we have come up on a realization. Neither ONE of us can use Jesus' "form," whether it be spiritual or solid, as an argument for either theology. The scripture is simply not clear on this. However, when the angels said He would return the way He went, what comes to my mind is He will emerge from a cloud and descend in corporeal form (however, on a horse this time, I guess).

 

[Justme]

Hi Ben Hur,

I use the translation from the NASB to explain ACTS 10:41. I never twigged on what the KJV was saying until I had read the NASB version. There it says:

40 " God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,
41 not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.

So as I see it it, the meaning would be God raised Him up and made Him visible to certain people of the day.

Jesus ate and drank with these people, but this is God we are talking about so I don't find eating and drinking a major miracle for Jesus to do.

The verse where Jesus told Thomas He was NOT a spirit is the big verse in question for me. How could a non spirit walk through walls, disappear from the table, float in space, stand with gaping wounds, yet not bleed, be GRANTED to be visible, but He tells Thomas He is NOT a spirit.........I understand it by remembering it is God we are talking about and man's logic may not apply in His case.

However, you are right that because the verses create a conflict in the literal reading I sure can't find any verse that cut and dries the absolute meaning.

Maybe someone else has some ideas that we haven't considered.

Back to edit...I forgot to comment on your quotes from Revelation. In those verses I thought John was still 'in the spirit' in Heaven and seeing all this from an angelic point of view. I don't think it ever says that Jesus ever actually comes to planet earth.

Justme

 

[water_ripple]

Hi water_ripple,

You wrote:

Neither has the new heaven and earth come..God has not wiped away all tears from our eyes...death still happens...everyone still experiences sorrow..everybody still cries..everyone still experiences pain..even Christians do..to say that one does not is a lie. People still get hurt..people still mourn and feel sorrow.. These things that are to come with the new heaven and earth have not yet come to pass...
*******************************

I take all of that to be the spiritual Heavenly life in the spiritual body that comes after the physical body. I assume there is no pain in Heaven, no sorrow,etc in Heaven. This Heavenly existance wasn't possible for mortal man prior to the cross and the ultimate sacrifice of Christ. There will always be death of mankind on planet earth as I read the sciptures, once one receives the reward of eternal life in Heaven they will not die again, there is no death in the spiritual, heavenly eternal life which follows the natural physical life.

Here again what scripture would not agree with that? Like what verses tell you that the new heaven and earth has NOT come to pass?

Justme

Apparently there are 2 resurrections. There is a second death for some...

Revelations 20:1-15 AND I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. (2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years. (3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should decieve the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fufilled: and after that he must be lossed a little season. (4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had recieved his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be lossed out of his prison. (8) And shall go out to decieve the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. (9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (10) And the devil that decieved them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tourmented day and night for ever and ever. (11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which ere written in the books, according to their works. (13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 21 & 22 speaks of the new heaven and earth. It also talks of God's promise to eliminate all types of sorrow, pain, and death...Judgment has to happen before this can take place...Revelations 22 then further supports Christ's words that He comes quickly that are first stated in the beginning of the NT...On earth as it is in heaven relates to Revelation 21 & 22. Human beings cannot make the kingdom come. It is come only by God, and some day everybody will have to face judgement before the new heaven and earth come.

 

[Ben_Hur]

The verse where Jesus told Thomas He was NOT a spirit is the big verse in question for me. How could a non spirit walk through walls, disappear from the table, float in space, stand with gaping wounds, yet not bleed, be GRANTED to be visible, but He tells Thomas He is NOT a spirit.........I understand it by remembering it is God we are talking about and man's logic may not apply in His case.

This would mean (to me) that He was able to "fold" himself through 4 dimenions of space-time into the 5th dimension (or more). This ability would allow him to pop in and out of our 4 dimensions, but probably not hardly move through the 5th dimension. You would have to know a bit about "flatland" to understand that.

 

[armothe]

The verse where Jesus told Thomas He was NOT a spirit is the big verse in question for me. How could a non spirit walk through walls..

The same way a non-spirit walked on water. (Matthew 14)

When the disciples caught sight of him walking on the water they were terrified. "It's a ghost!" they said, and screamed with fear. But at once Jesus spoke to them. "It's all right! It's I myself, don't be afraid!"

Again, in Luke 24 - (notice the similarities) Christ appears to the disciples - and again they believe they see a ghost/spirit - and again Christ corrected them.

Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith to them, `Peace -- to you;' and being amazed, and becoming affrighted, they were thinking themselves to see a spirit. And he said to them, `Why are ye troubled? and wherefore do reasonings come up in your hearts? see my hands and my feet, that I am he; handle me and see, because a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me having.'

Christ appeared to them in his Physical body. When Christ was resurrected, he was not in some glorified spiritual body. He was flesh and bone. He ate food. He still had the scars from his crucifixion.


Unfortunately people still deny what the Bible says and have managed to create this myth about Christ and His glorified body - and that we will have the same type of body He did when we get to Heaven.

-A

 

[Ben_Hur]

armothe[/b]] Unfortunately people still deny what the Bible says and have managed to create this myth about Christ and His glorified body - and that we will have the same type of body He did when we get to Heaven.

Are you saying you think we will not be resurrected in the same manner that Jesus was?

 

[armothe]

Are you saying you think we will not be resurrected in the same manner that Jesus was?

Christ physically died.
Christ was physically buried.
Christ's physical body remained in the tomb for 3 days.
During those three days, Christ's spirit descended to Hades.
On the 3rd day both Christ's spirit and body were resurrected back to earth.
Several other physically dead people were resurrected as well on that day.
(1st resurrection)
Christ physically remained on earth an additional 40 days.
Christ was physically received up to Heaven

My point is that Christ did not have a "glorified body". Neither will we.

To answer your question:

If you think we will die, go to hades, be resurrected back to earth, then ascend into heaven - like Christ did; then no, we will not be resurrected like how Christ was.

-A

 

[Ben_Hur]

If you think we will die, go to hades, be resurrected back to earth, then ascend into heaven - like Christ did; then no, we will not be resurrected like how Christ was.

-A

No. I was speaking the body only, not of his works.

 

[armothe]

No. I was speaking the body only, not of his works.

No, I do not believe in a physical resurrection which applies to us.

-A

 

[Justme]

Hi armothe,

You wrote:

No, I do not believe in a physical resurrection which applies to us.
***************************

I see it as a spiritual resurrection..reasons:

Ecclesiastes 12:7

and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

2 Cor 5
Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

Rev 22 talks about the new Jerusalem which is Heaven and
15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

It also tells us that after this new Jerusalem is in place or once Heaven is open for busiess that the ...

11Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

1 Cor 15
40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies;.....

44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

That's why I say it's a spiritual resurrection.

Justme

 

[Justme]

Hi water_ripple,

You wrote:
Revelation 21 & 22 speaks of the new heaven and earth. It also talks of God's promise to eliminate all types of sorrow, pain, and death..

Yes, this talks about Heaven, the eternal place of rest for those who believe in Christ. UIn Heaven there will be no sorrow, pain or any death.

You wrote:
Judgment has to happen before this can take place...
*******************

Yes, judgment has to happen and the person must be informed of that judgment:

Hebrews 9
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

You wrote:
Revelations 22 then further supports Christ's words that He comes quickly that are first stated in the beginning of the NT...
********************************
Rev 22 says that..among other things, yes.

You wrote:
On earth as it is in heaven relates to Revelation 21 & 22.
***************

I think you are referring to the Lord's prayer which does not say things will be done on earth as it is in Heaven it says Gods wishes will be done on earth as hIS WISHES ARE DONE IN HEAVEN.


You wrote:
Human beings cannot make the kingdom come.

I say the kingdom has come, the Heavenly kingdom of eternal life.

You wrote:
It is come only by God, and some day everybody will have to face judgement before the new heaven and earth come.
********************************
I see it as everybody will face judgement before they can enter the kingdom of Heaven that is already in progress.

I see the judgment and the raising of the dead as a continuous thing which had it's beginning in the first century. Here I mean the judgment of each person where by your words you are aquitted or by your words condemned kind of judgment,not the days of wrath or the great tribulation judgment. That happened in the first century which was the beginning of the individuals being judged after death, or at least learning of their judgment after death.

Justme

Justme

 

[water_ripple]

Hi water_ripple,

You wrote:
Revelation 21 & 22 speaks of the new heaven and earth. It also talks of God's promise to eliminate all types of sorrow, pain, and death..

Yes, this talks about Heaven, the eternal place of rest for those who believe in Christ. UIn Heaven there will be no sorrow, pain or any death.

You wrote:
Judgment has to happen before this can take place...
*******************

Yes, judgment has to happen and the person must be informed of that judgment:

Hebrews 9
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

You wrote:
Revelations 22 then further supports Christ's words that He comes quickly that are first stated in the beginning of the NT...
********************************
Rev 22 says that..among other things, yes.

You wrote:
On earth as it is in heaven relates to Revelation 21 & 22.
***************

I think you are referring to the Lord's prayer which does not say things will be done on earth as it is in Heaven it says Gods wishes will be done on earth as hIS WISHES ARE DONE IN HEAVEN.


You wrote:
Human beings cannot make the kingdom come.

I say the kingdom has come, the Heavenly kingdom of eternal life.

You wrote:
It is come only by God, and some day everybody will have to face judgement before the new heaven and earth come.
********************************
I see it as everybody will face judgement before they can enter the kingdom of Heaven that is already in progress.

I see the judgment and the raising of the dead as a continuous thing which had it's beginning in the first century. Here I mean the judgment of each person where by your words you are aquitted or by your words condemned kind of judgment,not the days of wrath or the great tribulation judgment. That happened in the first century which was the beginning of the individuals being judged after death, or at least learning of their judgment after death.

Justme

Justme

Well first off it states a new heaven and a new earth..not just heaven...I saw the dead the small and great..Encompasses all...All of this happens in sequential order after the devil is cast into the lake of fire. And only after judgement of all can the new heaven and earth be established...They are not actually two seperate things, but one. Like God...If we were living in His kingdom right now nobody would be appointed to die. People would live forever. You are going to die and I am going to die...When the new kingdom comes nobody will know death anymore.

As far as a physical resurrection Y is this hard to belive? Lazurus was raised from the dead when Christ called him out. Also Tabitha was resurrected from the dead by the power of Christ from a prayer of Peter (Acts 9:36-42). Verse 42 is very important because after her resurrection..And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many belived in the Lord.They belived in Christ's power to not only raise and quicken the spirit, but also to raise the body. It is not impossible, and like OT times the people are learning the power and will of God. They are also being made aware of His promise of eternal life, and what better way than by example. Way before Revelation we are prepared for what resurrection entails. The spirit is not the only thing which is quickened to life. To say that it is..is ignoring the rest of the scripture. Do I think we will be exactly the same? No I do not, but it is obvious that a physical resurrection will happen as well as the spiritual.

Something else..when everybody was going around saying people were dead...Christ says ah, they only sleepeth...

 

[xsimmsx]

Hi water_ripple,

You wrote:
Revelation 21 & 22 speaks of the new heaven and earth. It also talks of God's promise to eliminate all types of sorrow, pain, and death..

Yes, this talks about Heaven, the eternal place of rest for those who believe in Christ. UIn Heaven there will be no sorrow, pain or any death.

You wrote:
Judgment has to happen before this can take place...
*******************

Yes, judgment has to happen and the person must be informed of that judgment:

Hebrews 9
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

You wrote:
Revelations 22 then further supports Christ's words that He comes quickly that are first stated in the beginning of the NT...
********************************
Rev 22 says that..among other things, yes.

You wrote:
On earth as it is in heaven relates to Revelation 21 & 22.
***************

I think you are referring to the Lord's prayer which does not say things will be done on earth as it is in Heaven it says Gods wishes will be done on earth as hIS WISHES ARE DONE IN HEAVEN.


You wrote:
Human beings cannot make the kingdom come.

I say the kingdom has come, the Heavenly kingdom of eternal life.

You wrote:
It is come only by God, and some day everybody will have to face judgement before the new heaven and earth come.
********************************
I see it as everybody will face judgement before they can enter the kingdom of Heaven that is already in progress.

I see the judgment and the raising of the dead as a continuous thing which had it's beginning in the first century. Here I mean the judgment of each person where by your words you are aquitted or by your words condemned kind of judgment,not the days of wrath or the great tribulation judgment. That happened in the first century which was the beginning of the individuals being judged after death, or at least learning of their judgment after death.

Justme

Justme

Sorry sir but Judgement in that sense hasn't happened yet because the earth will be destroyed then.


II Peter 3:10-13
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;
in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things
shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in
all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting
unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[armothe]

As far as a physical resurrection Y is this hard to belive? Lazurus was raised from the dead when Christ called him out. Also Tabitha was resurrected from the dead by the power of Christ from a prayer of Peter (Acts 9:36-42).

Uhm.....I'm pretty sure Lazarus and Tabitha died sometime after they were resurrected. I sure don't see them walking around.

Their resurrection was in no way an indication of what kind of end-time resurrection there was to be. They were miracles - to demonstrate that Christ was who He said He was.

-A

 

[water_ripple]

Uhm.....I'm pretty sure Lazarus and Tabitha died sometime after they were resurrected. I sure don't see them walking around.

Their resurrection was in no way an indication of what kind of end-time resurrection there was to be. They were miracles - to demonstrate that Christ was who He said He was.

-A

Yes they were miracles, but a miracle does not have only one function. A miracle is as big and encompassing as God. He is not limited to one lesson. To demonstrate that Christ was who He said He was also agrees with the miracle of the resurrection of the dead small and great at one time for judgement and the purpose of a new heaven and earth that the wicked will have no part in. The power of God is not beyond this. The last days are just that. That means that they are numbered, and at some point time as humans know it will end..Just as this earth that we live on will end as will the heavens that we know of now will end. They will exist no more..they will pass away from God. It is His word, and it is brought to us through Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Revelation. There is an end in sight.

 

[armothe]

To demonstrate that Christ was who He said He was also agrees with the miracle of the resurrection of the dead small and great at one time for judgement and the purpose of a new heaven and earth that the wicked will have no part in.

So your proof for a physical resurrection at the time of the end is lies with Lazarus and Tabitha being physically resurrected? How is this proof again?

-A

 

[water_ripple]

So your proof for a physical resurrection at the time of the end is lies with Lazarus and Tabitha being physically resurrected? How is this proof again?

-A

A person does not have to believe a miracle. Either they do or they do not. The power of Christ resurrected these people. They were quickened not only spiritually, but also physically. Heck there are scriptural references to those who just gave up the ghost. Boom. They died. God has the power to give and take. It really is not beyond the power of God. I do not require proof. I believe the miracle. You can choose not to believe if you so wish, but the proof lies in faith of His word.

Thomas would not belive until he put his fingers in the nail prints..

Were these exactly the same? No...Christ ascended into heavean as the slain lamb of God, and as He said judgement is coming and the days are numbered.

 

[Justme]

Hi xsimmxs,

You wrote:
Sorry sir but Judgement in that sense hasn't happened yet because the earth will be destroyed then.


II Peter 3:10-13
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;
in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things
shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in
all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting
unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Actually the earth doesn't get destoyed at the time of the great judgment as I see it . BUT let's be clear here, are you talking about the time of wrath which is the same as the great tribulation which is followed immediately by a celestial display which includes the coming of the son of man? Is that the judgment you are talking about? If it is the world doesn't end at that time. I can show you the verses that prove that quite easy.

The story about the theif in the nite is a bit more compplicated and not nearly as cut and dried.

But anyway is the judgement you are thinking of the one at the time of the great tribulation and the parousia?

Justme

 

[Justme]

Hi water_ripple,

Actually the deaths and the coming back to life of Lazurus or the boy or even the men of Matthew 27:52,53 are apparently not considered to be resurrections. That is shown by the fury shown by Paul as he talks to these guys here:

2 Tim 2
17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.

So the resurrection could not have taken place prior to this or Paul would be incorrect to critical of these men.
This book was written in about 68AD, by Paul. Paul was the last apostle to brought in.

There are no examples of physical resurrection other than Jesus Himself being physically not present in the tomb...but remember Jesus is God, He was a spirit prior to becoming physical, none of us were.

Justme