Thy Kingdom Come

[Ben_Hur]

Ok, by now y'all have guessed I know little about what preterism and dispensationalism means (but I've learned enough to scratch the surface). So in light of that, I hope this question doesn't seem silly.

I think I've learned that pretrists think that God's Kindom is spiritual and is already here...right? wrong?

Assuming I am right - otherwise, forget this thread.....

Why did Jesus tell us to pray for the COMING of God's kindom? Was it NOT here when Jesus was on Earth?

If it was NOT here, what marked its coming? Was it 70ad? And why was that not very memorable (history-wise)? I mean you would have thought that the post-70ad church would have been all over that, praising that it was finally here and putting out an official change to the Lord's prayer ("thy kingdom CAME"). I know that sounds funny, but I'm very serious.

 

[vunderbar]

Ben_Hur: I mean you would have thought that the post-70ad church would have been all over that, praising that it was finally here and putting out an official change to the Lord's prayer ("thy kingdom CAME"). I know that sounds funny, but I'm very serious.

Yeah, isn't it strange how the ancient church (which was strictly premillennial) didn't seem to realize that the great tribulation had occurred, that the Lord had returned, and that the kingdom had been established? Strange indeed. Those are not the sorts of things we would expect to go unnoticed by the ancient church.

-Tim

 

[armothe]

Why did Jesus tell us to pray for the COMING of God's kindom? Was it NOT here when Jesus was on Earth?

Did Jesus tell "us" to pray that prayer, or did he tell His disciples to pray that prayer?

If it was NOT here, what marked its coming? Was it 70ad? And why was that not very memorable (history-wise)? I mean you would have thought that the post-70ad church would have been all over that, praising that it was finally here and putting out an official change to the Lord's prayer ("thy kingdom CAME"). I know that sounds funny, but I'm very serious.

Most likely, much of the Christian church at the time was indeed expecting a physical return of Christ - just like how the Jews were expecting Christ to be a physical ruler over them.
As we can see, things still haven't changed. Our sights are still set one physical fulfillment.

-A

 

[Ben_Hur]

Did Jesus tell "us" to pray that prayer, or did he tell His disciples to pray that prayer?

I'm a disciple....

Most likely, much of the Christian church at the time was indeed expecting a physical return of Christ - just like how the Jews were expecting Christ to be a physical ruler over them.
As we can see, things still haven't changed. Our sights are still set one physical fulfillment.

-A

Now wait. Revelation says everyone is supposed to see Him coming with his armies. Spiritual or otherwise, don't you think that would be hard to ignore/forget/not recognize?

 

[vunderbar]

armothe: Most likely, much of the Christian church at the time was indeed expecting a physical return of Christ - just like how the Jews were expecting Christ to be a physical ruler over them.
As we can see, things still haven't changed. Our sights are still set one physical fulfillment.

Actually, that is least likely. You don't really think the apostles failed to teach radical changes in the meaning of the covenants to their immediate followers, do you?

-Tim

 

[Justme]

Hi Ben-Hur,

You wrote:
Why did Jesus tell us to pray for the COMING of God's kindom? Was it NOT here when Jesus was on Earth?
**************************

Yes, it was, but those who saw it were told not to say anything.



Mark 9
9As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead.

What had they seen?
They saw a vision or whatever of Elijah and Moses, but what else did they see?

They saw the kingdom of God coming in power and glory. How do I know that? Well, Jesus predicted that some standing there would live to see the KINGDOM OF GOD come with power.

Mark 9 also tells us that these three men would be alive when they saw the kingdom of God meaning that others would be dead when they saw it.

Watch the thot plicken when you read that the same event is described as the coming of the son of man. Matthew 16:28 Yes, it all makes perfect sense.

Yes, Jesus told His people to pray for the coming of the son of man or the establishment of the kingdom of God.

Why do people still pray for this today?..............

Justme

 

[armothe]

I'm a disciple....

Really? That makes you about......2000 years old then! Amazing! I don't suppose you are the apostle John?

Now wait. Revelation says everyone is supposed to see Him coming with his armies. Spiritual or otherwise, don't you think that would be hard to ignore/forget/not recognize?

No it doesn't. It says "every eye". Which is figurative language.

Instead of focusing your energies on asking questions here, you might want to concentrate on learning how to read God's Word properly. Audience relevance, setting, characters, language, idioms...etc.

-A

 

[armothe]

Actually, that is least likely. You don't really think the apostles failed to teach radical changes in the meaning of the covenants to their immediate followers, do you?

-Tim

So you agree that it is more likely most of the 1st century church was expecting a spiritual return of Christ?

Just want that clarified.

-A

 

[Justme]

Hi Group,

I wonder if anyone has ever really thought out this 'every eye' will see Him thing? I mean really thought about it, and then throw in the thing that nobody ever talks about it.

26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.

In other words Jesus 'comes' and rules or whatever the congregation of the moment promotes, but no one ever says THERe HE IS...amazing don't you think.

How can this be? ...... There is a way that Jesus can be seen by everyone that has ever lived, or will ever live and it is not ever talked about ever...but how??????

Justme

 

[ikester]

Yeah, isn't it strange how the ancient church (which was strictly premillennial) didn't seem to realize that the great tribulation had occurred, that the Lord had returned, and that the kingdom had been established? Strange indeed. Those are not the sorts of things we would expect to go unnoticed by the ancient church.

-Tim

exactly right....no one in church history or secular history for that matter have written as to the witness of christ's return.......and as far as josephus...he was a titus backscratcher...

 

[Ben_Hur]

Really? That makes you about......2000 years old then! Amazing! I don't suppose you are the apostle John?

No it doesn't. It says "every eye". Which is figurative language.

Instead of focusing your energies on asking questions here, you might want to concentrate on learning how to read God's Word properly. Audience relevance, setting, characters, language, idioms...etc.

-A

Do you think you could be a little more abrasive? I think you undershot the mark on that one. Oh and BTW, I ask questions here because this is what a "forum" is about; hopefully, to fellowship in the word with other Christians, to get alternate view points, etc., etc. I've read the Bible several times over. I've participated in several Bible studies. There are all kinds of odd theolgies going on here I've never heard of. I'd like to know more and see if they make sense to me. If subscribing to your theology makes me as abrasive as you, then you can keep it.

Check out the definition of disciple in the dictionary. I am A disciple, not one of THE disciples. If you start saying that Jesus was only talking to them in these cases, then perhaps NONE of his teachings were meant for us, but only them... How are you going to decide which teachings are for "us" and which were only for them?

Also, how do you know that "every eye" is figurative language? Is that phrase used only figuratively elsewhere in the Bible? My search turns up only one instance in Rev 1:7.

 

[Justme]

Hi Ikester,

You wrote:
exactly right....no one in church history or secular history for that matter have written as to the witness of christ's return.......and as far as josephus...he was a titus backscratcher..******************

However, if all this takes place in the invisible spiritual realm nobody would ever speak of this because the dead don't communicate with the earthly living people.

Nobody will ever talk about the second coming of Christ in the physical domain if the coming occurs in the spiritual.

Verses that show the afterlife is invisible you may ask, well nobody ever does, but here they are anyway.

2 Cor 5
Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

Notice the eternal house is in Heaven.

It is written that we will be raised up to meet the Lord on the clouds and remain with the Lord forever.

17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

It is important to note that the people who are referred to above that are being raised are those alive at the parousia or the coming or presence of the son of man.

It is even more important to note that this is not the end of it because those who are blessed are those who DIE after the coming of the son of man.

Make no mistake, this eternal life is invisible not natural physical. Everything that is ETERNAL is invisible or unseen. Those who see the second coming are in the spiritual eternal realm, no longer able to communicate with mortal man on earth.

If not, show me verses that prove it's not.

I am interested in comments from anyone reading this, thank you,

Justme

 

[armothe]

If subscribing to your theology makes me as abrasive as you, then you can keep it.

Yes, it will. You will also start to like strawberry milkshakes, prefer brunettes over blondes and enjoy online gaming as well. You will be assimilated.

Check out the definition of disciple in the dictionary. I am A disciple, not one of THE disciples.

I never disputed the definition of what a disciple was. I was merely pointing out that Christ was speaking to HIS chosen 1st century disciples. You are not one of them. The passage does not apply to you.

If you start saying that Jesus was only talking to them in these cases, then perhaps NONE of his teachings were meant for us, but only them... How are you going to decide which teachings are for "us" and which were only for them?

Context.

Some statements are personal. Some statements are universal.
You just need to sort through scripture and determine which statements were meant personally, locally or universally.

For example, the sermon on the mount was to a multitute of people. Much of what Christ stated is applied universally.

Some statements are to certain people:
Matthew 10:5-7 - Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Is this command to you? If so, are you following it? Are you in Israel now?

Matthew 10:20 - For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you.

Apply to you? Here are a few more to chew on:

Matthew 16:3 - Ye know how to discern the face of the heaven; but ye cannot discern the signs of the times
Matthew 17:19 - If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Matthew 19:21 - If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Matthew 19:28 - ye who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Also, how do you know that "every eye" is figurative language? Is that phrase used only figuratively elsewhere in the Bible? My search turns up only one instance in Rev 1:7.

Perhaps not the phrase "every eye" but indeed the word "eye" is used figuratively throughout the Bible. I do not have time to list them all, but here is an example:

Job 42:1-5
And Job answereth Jehovah and saith: ... By the hearing of the ear I heard Thee, And now mine eye hath seen Thee.

I think it is safe to say that Job did not actually see God.

Not to mention that the word "see" (optomai) in the phrase "every eye shall see" is used figuratively as well. Therefore it should be reconciled the phrase as a whole - including "every eye" is figurative.

-A

 

[vunderbar]

armothe: So you agree that it is more likely most of the 1st century church was expecting a spiritual return of Christ?
Just want that clarified.

Nope, the ancient church was awaiting an actual "return" of the Lord from heaven (literal).

-Tim

 

[ikester]

Hi Ikester,

You wrote:
exactly right....no one in church history or secular history for that matter have written as to the witness of christ's return.......and as far as josephus...he was a titus backscratcher..******************

However, if all this takes place in the invisible spiritual realm nobody would ever speak of this because the dead don't communicate with the earthly living people.

Nobody will ever talk about the second coming of Christ in the physical domain if the coming occurs in the spiritual.

Verses that show the afterlife is invisible you may ask, well nobody ever does, but here they are anyway.

2 Cor 5
Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

Notice the eternal house is in Heaven.

It is written that we will be raised up to meet the Lord on the clouds and remain with the Lord forever.

17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

It is important to note that the people who are referred to above that are being raised are those alive at the parousia or the coming or presence of the son of man.

It is even more important to note that this is not the end of it because those who are blessed are those who DIE after the coming of the son of man.

Make no mistake, this eternal life is invisible not natural physical. Everything that is ETERNAL is invisible or unseen. Those who see the second coming are in the spiritual eternal realm, no longer able to communicate with mortal man on earth.

If not, show me verses that prove it's not.

I am interested in comments from anyone reading this, thank you,

Justme

I think all are in agreement as to the temple destruction in 70ad a fulfillment of prophecy.....samething happened earlier by the hands of babylonians....but if christ came back....he didn't bring his reward....he didn't rescue the jews...he didn't defeat the nations that came against jerusalem...which the romans were the only army... if memory serves me right..the jews took back jerusalem around 130ad for a period... but anyway....if he returned spiritually or physically...no one witnessed it... then how can anyone make that claim...

 

[Ben_Hur]

Act 1:9 And saying these things, as they watched, He was taken up. And a cloud received Him out of their sight.

Act 1:10 And while they were looking intently into the heaven, He having gone, even behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them,

Act 1:11 who also said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into the heaven? This same Jesus who is taken up from you into Heaven, will come in the way you have seen Him going into Heaven.


They "watched" as he was taken up. They could see him. He was not spirit.

The men in white (angels) told them Jesus would come "the way you have seen him going." In other words, they will see him coming, in bodily form, they way He went.

Jesus will return in bodily form, not as a spirit. It says so in the Bible, and it was not a figure of speach.

 

[Justme]

Hi Ben-Hur,

You wrote:
They "watched" as he was taken up. They could see him. He was not spirit.
***********************

He was visible, but later we find out why that was:

Acts 10
40 " God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,
41 not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.

Acts 1 tells us that Jesus will return as He left, how did He leave ...on the clouds.

The bible does describe what Jesus did look like on one occassion when He returned to earth after the ascension.....He was an invisible spirit.

Justme

 

[Ben_Hur]

Hi Ben-Hur,

You wrote:
They "watched" as he was taken up. They could see him. He was not spirit.
***********************

He was visible, but later we find out why that was:

Acts 10
40 " God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,
41 not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.

Acts 1 tells us that Jesus will return as He left, how did He leave ...on the clouds.

No. He "ascended" into the air and disappeared behind a cloud (which, of course, hid him from their sight).

The bible does describe what Jesus did look like on one occassion when He returned to earth after the ascension.....He was an invisible spirit.

Justme

Verse?

 

[water_ripple]

One thing that has not stopped happening is the devil (satan) ceasing to decieve the nations of the world. At some point that will stop happening because satan will be too busy being tourmented for ever and ever.

Neither has the new heaven and earth come..God has not wiped away all tears from our eyes...death still happens...everyone still experiences sorrow..everybody still cries..everyone still experiences pain..even Christians do..to say that one does not is a lie. People still get hurt..people still mourn and feel sorrow.. These things that are to come with the new heaven and earth have not yet come to pass...

Revelation 21:1-8 AND I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away: and there was no more sea. (2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. (4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall ther be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. (6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. (7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abomidable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and isolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Thy kingdom come:
(2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. (4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall ther be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[Justme]

Hi Ben-Hur,

You didn't comment on Acts 10:40,41 and I would like to see your response tho that verse.

Concerning the time Jesus did come to earth after the ascension is describred here:
Acts 9

3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
5"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.
6"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."
7The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone

Your point about the cloud 'hiding' Jesus from their sight is correct as the verse states. However, it is made very clear that Jesus returns on a cloud or in a cloud. At any rate I would like to see a verse that says any physically visible Jesus Christ ever touches down to earth ever again after His ascension. Can you show me one? Here again, I'm not saying there isn't one, I just don't know of any.

Justme