Thunder Lauriston lecture on "Why Sunday worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast"

[Gary K]

Well what I noticed is Doug Batchelor saying the same things and using the same bible verses as I see posted by various SDA members here. Are all the people saying the same things and using the same bible verses repeating him? Or is everyone including him repeating someone else?

There is no "Adventist script". I think you would be very surprised at the variety of thought inside the SDA church.

 

[ozso]

Take a look at the Dark Ages. The RCC was killing people for simply reading the Bible. For more than a thousand years Catholics were the vast majority of Christians, and still are the majority. It really demonstrates the devil's ability to deceive.

Are you basing that on an objective study of church history, or on what you were taught about it?

 

[ozso]

There is no "Adventist script". I think you would be very surprised at the variety of thought inside the SDA church.

When it comes to reading sabbath and the law threads here, I haven't seen much individuality or originality. As a matter of fact you're the first SDA I've come across who said something differently than I hear from most. But I think that could be because the others are using a scripted form of proselytizing and apologetics.

 

[Gary K]

Well what I noticed is Doug Batchelor saying the same things and using the same bible verses as I see posted by various SDA members here. Are all the people saying the same things and using the same bible verses repeating him? Or is everyone including him repeating someone else?

One thing that may surprise you is that two of the leaders of the Millerite movement back in the early 1800s, William Miller and Joseph Bates, used nothing but Cruden's Concordance and the Bible to form their ideas of scripture. I've just been reading the memoirs of Miller and he was an amazing man. He spent years comparing scripture with scripture, as did Bates, to arrive at their common understanding of scripture. Miller actually fought with his conscience against teaching his ideas to the public for years. He finally gave in and within an hour the son of a man he knew in another town arrived and asked him to come home with him as his father wnted him to come speak at his church on his views of the end time prophecies. It made him mad that God had sent a request for him to speak publicly so quickly that he walked out if the house and went to a nearby grove of trees where he often prayed and began fighting with God about him publicly speaking as he thought he had gotten one over on God and no one would ever ask him to speak publicly, He spent an hour wrestling with God before he finally gave in. When he went back to the house the kid was still there waiting for him so he went with him.

 

[Gary K]

Are you basing that on an objective study of church history, or on what you were taught about it?

D'Aubigne's multi-volume tome of 1400+ pages on the reformation and scripture. You can download D'Aubigne's tome from Project Gutenberg. I didn't know it existed until a few years ago. When I found it I was just looking for things to read as I'm a voracious reader.

 

[ozso]

D'Aubigne's multi-volume tome of 1400+ pages on the reformation and scripture. You can download D'Aubigne's tome from Project Gutenberg. I didn't know it existed until a few years ago. When I found it I was just looking for things to read as I'm a voracious reader.

So D'Aubigne said "the RCC was killing people for simply reading the Bible"? And is he your only source?

Really what I'm referring to is foundational orthodox Christian theology regarding the law and the sabbath.

 

[Gary K]

When it comes to reading sabbath and the law threads here, I haven't seen much individuality or originality. As a matter of fact you're the first SDA I've come across who said something differently than I hear from most. But I think that could be because the others are using a scripted form of proselytizing and apologetics.

I don't think so as I have been around the SDA church most of my life. I say most of my life because I spent years in drug addiction away from the church. My drug abuse was intentional as I wanted to destroy myself due to decades of abuse. Our family was very dysfunctional and I wanted to destroy myself so I couldn't feel the pain any more so I took the cowards way out and tried to destroy my mind with drugs.

If anyone should have a bias against Christianity and SDAs it's me as my parents were SDA, but unfortunately weren't Christians. It happens in all denominations. Sigh. The devil is sooo evil and hates humanity so much.

 

[ozso]

One thing that may surprise you is that two of the leaders of the Millerite movement back in the early 1800s, William Miller and Joseph Bates, used nothing but Cruden's Concordance and the Bible to form their ideas of scripture. I've just been reading the memoirs of Miller and he was an amazing man. He spent years comparing scripture with scripture, as did Bates, to arrive at their common understanding of scripture. Miller actually fought with his conscience against teaching his ideas to the public for years. He finally gave in and within an hour the son of a man he knew in another town arrived and asked him to come home with him as his father wnted him to come speak at his church on his views of the end time prophecies. It made him mad that God had sent a request for him to speak publicly so quickly that he walked out if the house and went to a nearby grove of trees where he often prayed and began fighting with God about him publicly speaking as he thought he had gotten one over on God and no one would ever ask him to speak publicly, He spent an hour wrestling with God before he finally gave in. When he went back to the house the kid was still there waiting for him so he went with him.

So Miller is the one others are repeating?

 

[Gary K]

So D'Aubigne said "the RCC was killing people for simply reading the Bible"? And is he your only source?

Really what I'm referring to is foundational orthodox Christian theology.

No. But he is the preeminent authority on the Reformation as his tome took him 55 years to research and write

 

[Gary K]

So Miller is the one others are repeating?

No. What you will find is that many SDA's are well versed in scripture. In fact, we used to be known as "the people of the book" until the denomination began to drift away from it's first love with Jesus.

 

[ozso]

I don't think so as I have been around the SDA church most of my life. I say most of my life because I spent years in drug addiction away from the church. My drug abuse was intentional as I wanted to destroy myself due to decades of abuse. Our family was very dysfunctional and I wanted to destroy myself so I couldn't feel the pain any more so I took the cowards way out and tried to destroy my mind with drugs.

If anyone should have a bias against Christianity and SDAs it's me as my parents were SDA, but unfortunately weren't Christians. It happens in all denominations. Sigh. The devil is sooo evil and hates humanity so much.

One can't really go by someone's personal experience. I could say Pentecostals and their churches are like what I've personally experienced for over 40 years, but I know that's far from accurate.

(Side note: I'm not a Pentecostal. God has lead me to a couple of Pentecostal churches in my lifetime that have had sound biblical teaching - aside from Pentecostalism, which has mostly been in the background).

 

[ozso]

No. What you will find is that many SDA's are well versed in scripture. In fact, we used to be known as "the people of the book" until the denomination began to drift away from it's first love with Jesus.

I don't mean to be rude, but I've mostly only seen well versed in scripture as far as dogmatically fitting it into SDA doctrine. It has struck me as being more eisegetical than exegetical.

 

[Gary K]

When it comes to reading sabbath and the law threads here, I haven't seen much individuality or originality. As a matter of fact you're the first SDA I've come across who said something differently than I hear from most. But I think that could be because the others are using a scripted form of proselytizing and apologetics.

I'll explain this to you.

The SDA church rejected something called Righteousness by Faith (RxF) back in 1888. I believe very strongly in this as it is taught throughout the Bible but is difficult for people to accept as we all want to take credit for having something good in us. What RxF means is that the only righteousness any of us can have comes from our relationship with Jesus. Paul teaches this all throughout his writings but 1Corinthians 1:30 is, to me, the strongest evidence for it.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Jesus was completely free of legalism although He lived the law of God in His humanity because of His trust in His Father. We can have that same type of trust when we Get to know Jesus as Jesus said:

Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

So there is RxF in a nutshell.

 

[Gary K]

I don't mean to be rude, but I've mostly only seen well versed in scripture as far as dogmatically fitting it into SDA doctrine. It has struck me as being more eisegetical than exegetical.

I've never seen you be rude. Disagreement is not rudeness.

It's your right to disagree with me. God gives all of us that right as He has given all of us the power to choose what we believe..

 

[Gary K]

One can't really go by someone's personal experience. I could say Pentecostals and their churches are like what I've personally experienced for over 40 years, but I know that's far from accurate.

(Side note: I'm not a Pentecostal. God has lead me to a couple of Pentecostal churches in my lifetime that have had sound biblical teaching - aside from Pentecostalism, which has mostly been in the background).

Actually there is a Pentacostal church I really like. It's called Whitewell Memorial Tabernacl in Belfast, Ireland and the pastor who founded it really loved God and through the power of the Holy Spirit really instilled love for God in his congregation. He passed away back in 2021 but his influence is still seen in a great degree today. He taught RxF through his love for God as he truly believed in following God and that God could make us righteous through faith in Him.

Here's a link to a guy's account on you tube whose username is bibleguy. My wife and I just love listening to this congregation singing because of their enthusiasm for God.

https://www.youtube.com/user/bibleguy

What I do is click on the videos tab and listen from there. There is also a video of pastor James Mcconnell's testimony to be found on you tube. What God did through that man is incredible. Under his leadership that church went from 10 members to 3500 during his leadership there.

 

[Leaf473]

When God writes His commandments in our hearts we can then obey Him naturally even though we still have sin built into us and are still tempted. He doesn't make us sinless until we go to heaven and the devil is destroyed in the lake of fire.

Right, we can obey him naturally. And do we also naturally know what to obey? That is, the law of God written on our hearts... We wouldn't need someone to teach us what is written on our hearts, we would know it naturally, or maybe intuitively.

 

[Leaf473]

Well what I noticed is Doug Batchelor saying the same things and using the same bible verses as I see posted by various SDA members here. Are all the people saying the same things and using the same bible verses repeating him? Or is everyone including him repeating someone else?

Not to focus on SDA's, but Doug batchelor and also the website amazing facts, of which I believe Doug is the director, uses much the same wording. That to me is the key. Obviously, the same passages in scripture are going to come up when discussing the same subjects. But the same wording when one talking about them?

 

[Leaf473]

Take a look at the Dark Ages. The RCC was killing people for simply reading the Bible. For more than a thousand years Catholics were the vast majority of Christians, and still are the majority. It really demonstrates the devil's ability to deceive.

Just to note, Catholic apologists/historians say that the alleged abuses in the past are often vastly inflated. I haven't researched it myself, so I don't know.

But let's say that the Catholic Church as a whole was deceived. That means that the Bible was compiled by deceived people. Sure, we can say that God used deceived people to do his work. But which group of deceived people are we going to believe? The standard Catholic bible? The standard Protestant bible? Martin Luther's version, where he says James shouldn't be used for doctrine?

There's a group, I think it's the coptics, that include the Book of Enoch as scripture.

 

[Leaf473]

D'Aubigne's multi-volume tome of 1400+ pages on the reformation and scripture. You can download D'Aubigne's tome from Project Gutenberg. I didn't know it existed until a few years ago. When I found it I was just looking for things to read as I'm a voracious reader.

Have you looked at other sources as well, perhaps one friendly with Catholicism? I don't know, maybe the book you refer to is.

Edit: here's a website you can check out. I haven't read the whole thing. It seems to be reasonable, it allows that there were some abuses.

What is the Inquisition?

The Inquisition is a handy stick for Catholic-bashing because most Catholics are at a loss for a sensible reply. This article sets the record straight.

www.catholic.com

 

[Gary K]

Not to focus on SDA's, but Doug batchelor and also the website amazing facts, of which I believe Doug is the director, uses much the same wording. That to me is the key. Obviously, the same passages in scripture are going to come up when discussing the same subjects. But the same wording when one talking about them?

How many different ways are there to say the same thing? Not many.

Edit:

I would say that D'ubigne's tome is fair as he criticizes the reformers for some of their attitudes such as Luther's caustic wit and his sarcasm. He also criticizes a few of their scriptural stances such as Zwingli's stance on being militant to the use of the Swiss armies of the day to enforce Protestant doctrines. It's the same thing the RCC did: use force to enforce their doctrines.