Thunder Lauriston lecture on "Why Sunday worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast"

[Gary K]

Have you looked at other sources as well, perhaps one friendly with Catholicism? I don't know, maybe the book you refer to is.

Edit: here's a website you can check out. I haven't read the whole thing. It seems to be reasonable, it allows that there were some abuses.

What is the Inquisition?

The Inquisition is a handy stick for Catholic-bashing because most Catholics are at a loss for a sensible reply. This article sets the record straight.

www.catholic.com

Yeah. I never read that kind of stuff. I'm a voracious reader but about all I read besides the Bible and the news are out of copyright books. About a year ago hackers bricked my laptop and as it was having hardware issues wasn't worth repairing and had to wait until I could afford to buy another one. I had more than 4000 ebooks books on it at that time and most of them were out of copyright books on serious subjects.

 

[Leaf473]

How many different ways are there to say the same thing? Not many.

Edit:

Doug Also teaches RxF.

It's not so much different ways of saying the same thing, it's several kinds of key phrases. For example, when you're talking to Latter-day Saints, they may use the phrase "plain and precious things".

When talking with Jehovah's Witnesses, you might hear "the meek shall inherit the earth." Granted, that's a Bible phrase, but you'll hear it a lot more from jw's.
________________
Until you came along, the only SDA view that I heard was that the laws that we were to keep from the Old Testament were the Ten Commandments plus some others. However, they were unable to say which others, except in broad categories. Finding actual passages of scripture seemed to be difficult. To me, that shows a lack of independent thinking.

I'll be glad to talk more, but we would probably want to do it in the denomination specific section

 

[Gary K]

Just to note, Catholic apologists/historians say that the alleged abuses in the past are often vastly inflated. I haven't researched it myself, so I don't know.

But let's say that the Catholic Church as a whole was deceived. That means that the Bible was compiled by deceived people. Sure, we can say that God used deceived people to do his work. But which group of deceived people are we going to believe? The standard Catholic bible? The standard Protestant bible? Martin Luther's version, where he says James shouldn't be used for doctrine?

There's a group, I think it's the coptics, that include the Book of Enoch as scripture.

God can be trusted. Of that I have zero doubt. Martin Luther's Bible was an accurate translation of the Bible. He didn't put his own opinions in it. He would have considered that extremely immoral and would have been horrified at the thought of it for he considered scripture to be the word of God and thus sacred.

 

[Leaf473]

Yeah. I never read that kind of stuff. I'm a voracious reader but about all I read besides the Bible and the news are out of copyright books. About a year ago hackers bricked my laptop and as it was having hardware issues wasn't worth repairing and had to wait until I could afford to buy another one. I had more than 4000 ebooks books on it at that time and most of them were out of copyright books on serious subjects.

Yep, I love them old books too

My experience, all historians have biases, some more than others.

Note that Kings and Chronicles present essentially the same history, but Chronicles is biased towards Judah and doesn't talk as much about some bad things that the rulers did, I think.

You've probably read The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon. I haven't, but I've heard he has an anti-christian bias.

Homer could be another example. I'm sure he spent a long time composing The Iliad. It definitely has a pro Hellenistic bias!

 

[Gary K]

It's not so much different ways of saying the same thing, it's several kinds of key phrases. For example, when you're talking to Latter-day Saints, they may use the phrase "plain and precious things".

When talking with Jehovah's Witnesses, you might hear "the meek shall inherit the earth." Granted, that's a Bible phrase, but you'll hear it a lot more from jw's.
________________
Until you came along, the only SDA view that I heard was that the laws that we were to keep from the Old Testament were the Ten Commandments plus some others. However, they were unable to say which others, except in broad categories. Finding actual passages of scripture seemed to be difficult. To me, that shows a lack of independent thinking.

I'll be glad to talk more, but we would probably want to do it in the denomination specific section

I'll be glad to do that. Start a thread in the Traditional Adventist forum as discussion of beliefs is allowed there.

 

[Gary K]

Yep, I love them old books too

My experience, all historians have biases, some more than others.

Note that Kings and Chronicles present essentially the same history, but Chronicles is biased towards Judah and doesn't talk as much about some bad things that the rulers did, I think.

You've probably read The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon. I haven't, but I've heard he has an anti-christian bias.

Homer could be another example. I'm sure he spent a long time composing The Iliad. It definitely has a pro Hellenistic bias!

Actually I have read a lot of Gibbons tome and he does have a strong anti-Christian bias.

I don't believe we find a bias against the nation of Isreal. The 10 tribes chose to separate themselves from Judah right after Solomon's death because of Solomon's tax rates. They turned to idolatry because Rehobam didn't trust his subjects to not return to Jerusalem because that's where the temple was. It was for their continual idolatry for the next 200+years that God destroyed them.

 

[HIM]

Here's the thing. I think it's far more likely that it's small groups that are being deceived, rather than the vast majority of Christendom for 2000 years. The way I look at it, I can trust that Christ told the truth and the gates of hell did not prevail against his church. Or I can believe that some relatively small group is right and 98% of Christ's church is under Satan's control. But then I have to decide which small group of all the small groups claiming to be the right one, is the right one, when they're all saying they're right and everyone else is false. To me it makes more sense to just go with the plain old orthodox Christianity that's been held by most of Christendom for 2000 years, rather than join up with a latter day unorthodox group.

The thing is it has always without fail been a remnant In God’s church.

 

[Gary K]

By the way, Here's a link from the Guardian on the Inquisition. Notice how the Catholic spokes people play down the numbers as some historians say the humber of people killed was in the millions.

Historians say Inquisition wasn't that bad

For centuries people were burned at the stake, stretched to death or otherwise tortured for failing to be Roman Catholic. But, if research released by the Vatican is right, the Inquisition was not as bad as one might think.

www.theguardian.com

 

[Gary K]

Here's a piece of trivia about Gibbon's tome.

One night at a party Winston Churchill, decades after he read it, recited an entire chapter from it by memory.

 

[Leaf473]

God can be trusted. Of that I have zero doubt.

I agree! Now, what is it we are trusting God to do? Tell us directly which documents are scripture? Or guide Christians in maybe the first 400 years to properly compile the scriptures into what we call the Bible?

Martin Luther's Bible was an accurate translation of the Bible. He didn't put his own opinions in it. He would have considered that extremely immoral and would have been horrified at the thought of it for he considered scripture to be the word of God and thus sacred.

I was thinking more about Martin Luther's version of the canon. If we're going to trust someone else to compile the Bible for us, who?
_________________
The big picture is that if, shortly after the death of the apostles, the bulk of Christianity turned away from God, Jesus didn't know them, they didn't have God's law written on their hearts, and they misinterpreted passages about what laws they were to keep,
why in the world would they be trusted to properly compile the Bible? To say that they did seems like an awfully ad hoc approach, something just for the moment.

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Timothy 2:2 - New American Standard Bible

The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful people who will be able to teach others also.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

I agree! Now, what is it we are trusting God to do? Tell us directly which documents are scripture? Or guide Christians in maybe the first 400 years to properly compile the scriptures into what we call the Bible?


I was thinking more about Martin Luther's version of the canon. If we're going to trust someone else to compile the Bible for us, who?
_________________
The big picture is that if, shortly after the death of the apostles, the bulk of Christianity turned away from God, Jesus didn't know them, they didn't have God's law written on their hearts, and they misinterpreted passages about what laws they were to keep,
why in the world would they be trusted to properly compile the Bible? To say that they did seems like an awfully ad hoc approach, something just for the moment.

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Timothy 2:2 - New American Standard Bible

The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful people who will be able to teach others also.

www.biblegateway.com

I will give you links to three authors who have written books on the Jesuits which you can download from Project Gutenberg in a variety of formats.

The Footprints of the Jesuits by Richard W. Thompson

Free kindle book and epub digitized and proofread by volunteers.

www.gutenberg.org

History of the Jesuits: Their origin, progress, doctrines, and designs by Nicolini

Free kindle book and epub digitized and proofread by volunteers.

www.gutenberg.org

Popery! As It Was and as It Is. Also, Auricular Confession; And Popish…

Free kindle book and epub digitized and proofread by volunteers.

www.gutenberg.org

The guy by the name of Thompson was a former secretary of the US navy. Niccolini was a Roman guy who lived in the 1700s. The third I have no history on but they all say basically the same thing.

 

[Leaf473]

I'll be glad to do that. Start a thread in the Traditional Adventist forum as discussion of beliefs is allowed there.

Possibly, after we're done here

But I would pick the denomination specific section, because in the traditional Adventist section, I can only post and fellowship.

 

[Gary K]

I have another book on the subject of the corruption of the RCC. This was written by a Scottish minister in the 1800s and traces out the origins of the RCCs theological roots. This is the most thoroughly documented book I have ever read on the origins of paganism.

Here is a link to a free pdf download.

https://www.ldolphin.org/PDFs/The_Two_Babylons-Alexander_Hislop.pdf

 

[Leaf473]

I don't believe we find a bias against the nation of Isreal. The 10 tribes chose to separate themselves from Judah right after Solomon's death because of Solomon's tax rates. They turned to idolatry because Rehobam didn't trust his subjects to not return to Jerusalem because that's where the temple was. It was for their continual idolatry for the next 200+years that God destroyed them.

In Chronicles? My impression was that the northern kingdom was only mentioned when they interacted with the kingdom of Judah.

Also, no mention of Bathsheba in Chronicles.

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: Bathsheba

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

Possibly, after we're done here

But I would pick the denomination specific section, because in the traditional Adventist section, I can only post and fellowship.

You would be welcome there as I've never seen anyone get kicked out of there for respectfully discussing SDA beliefs and I don't think you would do be disrespectful.

 

[Leaf473]

The thing is it has always without fail been a remnant In God’s church.

My impression is that the church is visible throughout history.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 5:14-15 - New American Standard Bible

“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.

www.biblegateway.com

Edit: this post completely reworked.

 

[Gary K]

In Chronicles? My impression was that the northern kingdom was only mentioned when they interacted with the kingdom of Judah.

Also, no mention of Bathsheba in Chronicles.

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: Bathsheba

www.biblegateway.com

I don't know how you came away with that impression. As to Bathsheba references, not all stories in Kings are mentioned in Chronicles and vice versa. I wouldn't read anything into that.

 

[Leaf473]

By the way, Here's a link from the Guardian on the Inquisition. Notice how the Catholic spokes people play down the numbers as some historians say the humber of people killed was in the millions.

Historians say Inquisition wasn't that bad

For centuries people were burned at the stake, stretched to death or otherwise tortured for failing to be Roman Catholic. But, if research released by the Vatican is right, the Inquisition was not as bad as one might think.

www.theguardian.com

I don't doubt it

As I said, in my experience, all historians have a bias. Even those historians whose histories are included in Scripture.

People tend to find what they're looking for

 

[Leaf473]

I will give you links to three authors who have written books on the Jesuits which you can download from Project Gutenberg in a variety of formats.

The Footprints of the Jesuits by Richard W. Thompson

Free kindle book and epub digitized and proofread by volunteers.

www.gutenberg.org

History of the Jesuits: Their origin, progress, doctrines, and designs by Nicolini

Free kindle book and epub digitized and proofread by volunteers.

www.gutenberg.org

Popery! As It Was and as It Is. Also, Auricular Confession; And Popish…

Free kindle book and epub digitized and proofread by volunteers.

www.gutenberg.org

The guy by the name of Thompson was a former secretary of the US navy. Niccolini was a Roman guy who lived in the 1700s. The third I have no history on but they all say basically the same thing.

Thanks! Do they relate to who compiled the Bible?

 

[Leaf473]

I have another book on the subject of the corruption of the RCC. This was written by a Scottish minister in the 1800s and traces out the origins of the RCCs theological roots. This is the most thoroughly documented book I have ever read on the origins of paganism.

Here is a link to a free pdf download.

https://www.ldolphin.org/PDFs/The_Two_Babylons-Alexander_Hislop.pdf

Thanks again! But a key: were the people who compiled the Bible corrupt? Like, Big Time corrupt?