Thunder Lauriston lecture on "Why Sunday worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast"

[ozso]

Oh mine, so many contradictions in her teachings.

To be fair it's the teachings of SDA doctrine. Unless by her you meant their prophetess Ellen White.

 

[trophy33]

To be fair it's the teachings of SDA doctrine. Unless by her you meant their prophetess Ellen White.

Is it the official SDA teaching that Col 2:16 are yearly Sabbaths, because its plural, but Ez 20:12 are weekly Sabbath, no matter its plural?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Oh mine, so many contradictions in her explanations.

No, context trumps everything else. If I am in contradiction so is the NKJV who capitalizes the Sabbath commandment and makes a lower s for the sabbath(s) ordinances.

 

[ozso]

Is it the official SDA teaching that Col 2:16 are yearly Sabbaths, because its plural, but Ez 20:12 are weekly Sabbath, no matter its plural?

According to the lexicon I used it's quite definitely the seventh day sabbath spoken of in Colossians 2:16
And according to the same lexicon in Ezekiel 20:12 it's also the seventh day sabbath. I was poking a little fun at interpretation being based on a plural that's used in some English translations.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

How about stepping away from scripted replies and directly adressing 2 Corinthians 3:1-11?

Let’s let Jesus address what it means to be living by the Spirit, which is greater than the letter…

He starts off saying not to break the least of the commandments quoting from the Ten and then goes on to show how they should be kept. Living by the Spirit is greater than the letter, and if truly living by the Spirit the letter is being kept as already shown in Rom 8:4-8. Jesus is not releasing us from the letter of the law, but showing a better way to live by living with through the Spirit which means the letter is automatically being kept.

Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says,‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.​

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.​

 

[SabbathBlessings]

According to the lexicon I used it's quite definitely the seventh day sabbath spoken of in Colossians 2:16
And according to the same lexicon in Ezekiel 20:12 it's also the seventh day sabbath. I was poking a little fun at interpretation being based on a plural that's used in some English translations.

We have been through this, its the root of the word but takes on a different meaning by the context as shown in which sabbath(s) it points to- ordinances Col 2:14 KJV context trumps everything. Plus Jesus Himself said the Sabbath would not end at the cross. Matthew 24:20, Isaiah 66:22-23, which is why the disciples kept every Sabbath decades after the cross, so it did not end. Paul does not have authority to remove one of the commandments of God that God wrote and blessed which is why Paul said keeping God’s commandments is what matters 1 Cor 7:19 and kept the Sabbath long after the cross.

Anyway, we have been through this enough, we have free will to believe anything we want.

 

[ozso]

No, context trumps everything else. If I am in contradiction so is the NKJV who capitalizes the Sabbath commandment and makes a lower s for the sabbath(s) ordinances. The Bible is not meant to be surface read.

Which is why when a Greek word translated into English is in dispute because different translations present it different ways, it's best to reference a Greek lexicon to see what the actual Greek word means. In the case of Colossians 2:16 its "σαββάτων (sabbatōn) 4521: the Sabbath, i.e. the seventh day (of the week)".

 

[ozso]

Let’s let Jesus address what it means to be living by the Spirit, which is greater than the letter…

He starts off saying not to break the least of the commandments quoting from the Ten and then goes on to show how they should be kept. Living by the Spirit is greater than the letter, and if truly living by the Spirit the letter is being kept as already shown in Rom 8:4-8. Jesus is not releasing us from the letter of the law, but showing a better way to live by living with through the Spirit which means the letter is automatically being kept.

Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says,‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.​

Adultery in the Heart​

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.​

That's avoiding talking about 2 Corinthians 3:1-11 rather than addressing it. Are you afraid to discuss that passage of Scripture?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Which is why when a Greek word translated into English is in dispute because different translations present it different ways, it's best to reference a Greek lexicon to see what the actual Greek word means. In the case of Colossians 2:16 its "σαββάτων (sabbatōn) 4521: the Sabbath, i.e. the seventh day (of the week)".

It’s the same word for the annual sabbath(s) context shows it is the ordinances, not the Sabbath commandment. Col 2:14 KJV the context does not fit here or with the rest of the scriptures showing the weekly Sabbath being kept every Sabbath long after the cross and in heaven/new earth.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

That's avoiding talking about 2 Corinthians 3:1-11 rather than addressing it. Are you afraid to discuss that passage of Scripture?

I did address, you just disagree. Jesus came to save us from sin Matt 1:21 (breaking God’s law 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7) not in sin so no scripture can contradict this, which is doesn’t just misunderstandings, which is why we should never make a gospel out of one or two verses especially when it contradicts the rest of scripture. Jesus quotes from the Ten Commandments telling us not to break the least of them or teach others to break and no follower of His contradicts His teachings.

I am going to leave it as agree to disagree. Take care.

 

[ozso]

We have been through this, its the root of the word but takes on a different meaning by the context as shown in which sabbath(s) it points to- ordinances Col 2:14 KJV context trumps everything.

What's supposed to be the context of "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;"?

Plus Jesus Himself said the Sabbath would not end at the cross. Matthew 24:20

"But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:" Matthew 24:20 is speaking of "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)" Matthew 24:15.

Here's where the understanding takes place. In the same speech made by Jesus as recorded by Luke it's "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh." Luke 21:20.

When was Jerusalem compassed with armies and rendered desolate? When Jerusalem was leveled by Rome within a generation of Jesus saying that. Fleeing in the winter would be a hardship. And fleeing on the Sabbath would be a hardship because everything would be shut down and the gates of the city would be closed. Like you said, context trumps everything,

Isaiah 66:22-23, which is why the disciples kept every Sabbath decades after the cross, so it did not end.

"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord." Isaiah 66:22-23 KJV

Did they keep the new moon too? Is the the new moon equivalent to sabbath? Of course it could mean month to month and week to week, which is considerably more contextual.

Paul does not have authority to remove one of the commandments of God that God wrote and blessed which is why Paul said keeping God’s commandments is what matters 1 Cor 7:19 and kept the Sabbath long after the cross.

So what did Paul mean in 2 Corinthians 3:1-11?

"1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? 2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the [a]Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious." 2 Corinthians 3:1-11 NKJV

 

[ozso]

I did address, you just disagree. Jesus came to save us from sin Matt 1:21 (breaking God’s law 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7) not in sin so no scripture can contradict this, which is doesn’t just misunderstandings, which is why we should never make a gospel out of one or two verses especially when it contradicts the rest of scripture. Jesus quotes from the Ten Commandments telling us not to break the least of them or teach others to break and no follower of His contradicts His teachings.

I am going to leave it as agree to disagree. Take care.

The way to discuss a passage like 2 Corinthians 3:7-11 is to discuss that passage by itself, rather than posting a bunch of other stuff.

 

[HIM]

That's avoiding talking about 2 Corinthians 3:1-11 rather than addressing it. Are you afraid to discuss that passage of Scripture?

As we all know we can't have a verse or verses say one thing and in another place in scripture it say something that contradicts. @SabbathBlessings is showing you where in scripture it is says different than what you think 2 Corinthians is stating. That is her point as we see it. 2Corinthians needs addressed though.

The first section verses 3-6 is just another way of stating the new covenant. We are living letters with a changed heart through rewriting of it through God's Spirit. Therefore the ministry tools went from tables of stone and parchment to us. It is no longer a ministry that is imposed and ministered by an outside source but from an inside change in us through the Spirit of the living God. Having a new spirit, God's Spirit in us is the same as saying we have His laws in our hearts and minds (Hebrews 8:10-12). Which is the same as saying we have His word in our hearts and mouths (Romans 10:6-8). Because if we have His spirit we have His law, His word. It is part of us because God is part of us and it is of Him. As it is also written, Us in Him, He in us that the world might believe.

It is to be the ministry that has changed not that which is of the ministry. As @SabbathBlessings points out the Word, God's law show us our sin. So in that respect as long as sin is an issue the law has a purpose. As it is written, the law is for the sinner, the ungodly and the profane. (1 Timothy 1:8-10) But the ministry is not what it is suppose to be. Stiffnecks and hardhearts won't let our sin go and therefore the letter and the tables of stone. Even so much we continued in parchment in that we through evilness needed a new letter outside of the body of Christ to continue the ministry. Hence the New Testament. Still A people choosing to follow man and things on the outside, the ministry of death rather than God and His Spirit from the inside.

2Cor 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Cor 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Cor 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

 

[Leaf473]

Since God's laws are written on our hearts, it follows that we can't be deceived about them. I say a big Amen to that.

We can choose to disobey them, sure. That's the constant struggle.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

As we all know we can't have a verse or verses say one thing and in another place in scripture it say something that contradicts. @SabbathBlessings is showing you where in scripture it is says different than what you think 2 Corinthians is stating. That is her point as we see it. 2Corinthians needs addressed though.

The first section verses 3-6 is just another way of stating the new covenant. We are living letters with a changed heart through rewriting of it through God's Spirit. Therefore the ministry tools went from tables of stone and parchment to us. It is no longer a ministry that is imposed and ministered by an outside source but from an inside change in us through the Spirit of the living God. Having a new spirit, God's Spirit in us is the same as saying we have His laws in our hearts and minds (Hebrews 8:10-12). Which is the same as saying we have His word in our hearts and mouths (Romans 10:6-8). Because if we have His spirit we have His law, His word. It is part of us because God is part of us and it is of Him. As it is also written, Us in Him, He in us that the world might believe.

It is to be the ministry that has changed not that which is of the ministry. As @SabbathBlessings points out the Word, God's law show us our sin. So in that respect as long as sin is an issue the law has a purpose. As it is written, the law is for the sinner, the ungodly and the profane. (1 Timothy 1:8-10) But the ministry is not what it is suppose to be. Stiffnecks and hardhearts won't let our sin go and therefore the letter and the tables of stone. Even so much we continued in parchment in that we through evilness needed a new letter outside of the body of Christ to continue the ministry. Hence the New Testament. Still A people choosing to follow man and things on the outside, the ministry of death rather than God and His Spirit from the inside.

2Cor 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Cor 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Cor 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

Perfectly stated. Jesus wants us changed from the inside out and in doing so keeping His commandments comes naturally though faith and love.

 

[HIM]

Since God's laws are written on our hearts, it follows that we can't be deceived about them. I say a big Amen to that.

That is not true for all. For a little leaven leavens the whole.

 

[Gary K]

The New Covenant is God writing His laws in our hearts and minds, the same finger of God who wrote the Ten Commandments on stone, writes His laws in our hearts and minds. Jer 31:33 Hebrews 8:10. The minister of death is the condemnation for breaking the Ten Commandments as it is what points out sin 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 the wages of sin is death, but we can choose a different path through Christ walking with Him in His Spirit which He will give us the power to keep the commandment John 14:15-18. Jesus came to save us from our sin, not in the Matthew 1:21

The Spirit and the law of God are in harmony and those walking in the Spirit will be keeping the law of God. Those who choose flesh (sin) are in enmity with God.

Romans 8: 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be [b]carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

How is what Ordinary Christian quoted from 2Corinthians 3 any different than what you are saying? Yet the clear implication of what you said is that you disagree with him. It's as if you leave no room for the Holy Spirit and think it is your job to convict of sin.

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Aren't you attempting to work above your pay grade?

 

[ozso]

As we all know we can't have a verse or verses say one thing and in another place in scripture it say something that contradicts. @SabbathBlessings is showing you where in scripture it is says different than what you think 2 Corinthians is stating. That is her point as we see it. 2Corinthians needs addressed though.

The first section verses 3-6 is just another way of stating the new covenant. We are living letters with a changed heart through rewriting of it through God's Spirit. Therefore the ministry tools went from tables of stone and parchment to us. It is no longer a ministry that is imposed and ministered by an outside source but from an inside change in us through the Spirit of the living God. Having a new spirit, God's Spirit in us is the same as saying we have His laws in our hearts and minds (Hebrews 8:10-12). Which is the same as saying we have His word in our hearts and mouths (Romans 10:6-8). Because if we have His spirit we have His law, His word. It is part of us because God is part of us and it is of Him. As it is also written, Us in Him, He in us that the world might believe.

It is to be the ministry that has changed not that which is of the ministry. As @SabbathBlessings points out the Word, God's law show us our sin. So in that respect as long as sin is an issue the law has a purpose. As it is written, the law is for the sinner, the ungodly and the profane. (1 Timothy 1:8-10) But the ministry is not what it is suppose to be. Stiffnecks and hardhearts won't let our sin go and therefore the letter and the tables of stone. Even so much we continued in parchment in that we through evilness needed a new letter outside of the body of Christ to continue the ministry. Hence the New Testament. Still A people choosing to follow man and things on the outside, the ministry of death rather than God and His Spirit from the inside.

2Cor 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Cor 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Cor 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

What about the key portion I pointed out?

2 Cor 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was,
2 Cor 3:8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?
2 Cor 3:9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!
2 Cor 3:10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory
2 Cor 3:11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

What I'm addressing with 2 Corinthians 3:7-11 is it being said that since the ten commandments were written in stone rather than parchment, those commandments are permanent, whereas the commandments written on parchment have dissolved into shadows of the new covenant. However it seems pretty clear here that Paul is saying that applies to both that which was written on parchment and that which was written in stone.

 

[Gary K]

Is it the official SDA teaching that Col 2:16 are yearly Sabbaths, because its plural, but Ez 20:12 are weekly Sabbath, no matter its plural?

No it is not as there is not a single Bible translation in which Sabbath is translated as Sabbaths in Exodus 20:12. Plus I have demonstrated from Isaiah that what Paul was referring to was as it has been shown to be by SabbathBlessing.

Isa 1:12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
Isa 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Isa 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
Isa 1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Plus the new moons and offerings are spoken of in multiple other paces in the OT. Here is one.

Neh 10:33 For the shewbread, and for the continual meat offering, and for the continual burnt offering, of the sabbaths, of the new moons, for the set feasts, and for the holy things, and for the sin offerings to make an atonement for Israel, and for all the work of the house of our God.

That same phraseology is used in multiple places in the OT.

 

[ozso]

Perfectly stated. Jesus wants us changed from the inside out and in doing so keeping His commandments comes naturally though faith and love.

Then why so much emphasis on stone tablets?