Thunder Lauriston lecture on "Why Sunday worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast"

[BobRyan]

Jesus did not say He is our rest, He said He gives rest there is a huge difference
Matthew 11:28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Amen.

I can GIVE someone a birthday cake but that does not MAKE ME a "birthday cake" - it does not make me THEIR birthday cake.

Do you not know the difference between giving someone something verses I am that something?

Ordinary Christian said:
Please explain what the huge difference is.

???

 

[SabbathBlessings]

"tempted in all points as we are yet WITHOUT SIN" Heb 4:15
"Which one of you convicts Me of sin?" John 8:48
"SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
"through the LAW comes the knowledge of what sin is" Rom 3:19-20

Yes, so sad it’s a popular teaching that Jesus sinned or edited the definition of sin to accommodate Him breaking His own Sabbath commandment.

 

[BobRyan]

John 5:18 says "not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father." Is half a lie and the other half true? Is that how John writes, mixing the truth with lies?

John says -

Jesus said "Which one of you convicts Me of sin?" John 8:48 -- arguing that He was sinless, not a law breaker​

John declares "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4​

"SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 AND in Rom 3:19-20.
John tells us that the Jews were accusing Christ of SIN -- rebellion against the WORD of God.

You can side with the accusers of Christ if you wish - you do have free will in that regard.

But the Bible says

"tempted in all points as we are yet WITHOUT SIN" Heb 4:15
"through the LAW comes the knowledge of what sin is" Rom 3:19-20

 

[BobRyan]

SabbathBlessings said:

It says to keep the Sabbath day holy Exodus 20:8 and the Sabbath is a holy convocation -holy gathering/assembly Lev 23:3. The day to honor God Isaiah 58:13- is our worship worthy of a day God sanctified, blessed and made holy or a day to do work and labors? Exodus 20:9

When scripture agrees with scripture ... line upon line... sola scriptura tested and proven doctrine.

Then some may respond

That's just more eisegesis cobbling.

You need a convincing argument at that point.

You know I keep the Sabbath myself from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. So it shouldn't be particularly difficult to convince me. But all I see is eisegesis and a lack of hermeneutics.

Then start by dealing with the details - not skimming over them.

It says to keep the Sabbath day holy Exodus 20:8 also makes that same case in Ex 20:11
and the Sabbath is a holy convocation -holy gathering/assembly Lev 23:3.
The day to honor God Isaiah 58:13- "The Holy Day of the LORD" in Is 58

is our worship worthy of a day God sanctified, blessed and made holy or a day to do work and labors? Exodus 20:9

That has nothing to do with someone making the Bible say whatever they want it to say.

Which is not what we see happening in the case above.

Why not actually address the points being made from the texts above?

Plucking grain is not the same thing as eating gran. That's a ridiculous notion. Them eating grain was not the issue. It was them performing the labor of plucking the grain that was a violation of the sabbath.

only according to Jewish tradition no scripture says that if you pick a berry and eat it while walking on Sabbath you have sinned - and we all know it.

Just the same as eating bread on the sabbath is not forbidden, but making and baking bread on the sabbath is forbidden.

You are equivocating between two very different things. Your argument above is like saying that if someone dares to pick a berry and eat it while walking it is the same as cooking a 4 course meal.

that is the kind of thinking that man-made traditions of the Jews gave the world.

If you think keeping the sabbath is mandatory

"Mandatory" as in "do not take God's name in vain" ?? ONE of the TEN where "He spoke these TEN commandments... and added no more" Deut 5:22

"Mandatory" as in "sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4

Is that what you mean by "mandatory"???

then I suggest you get a better understanding of what's actually allowed and what's forbidden.

The Bible does a good job of that.

There's nothing you can come up with where Jesus ever says a single thing about keeping the sabbath. Or where any NT author says anything about keeping the sabbath.

No NT statements about "do not take God's name in vain" either.

What is your point?

That this is how they delete a commandment?

 

[BobRyan]

I think you believe going to church on Saturday instead of Sunday is a ticket to heaven and in that is where you place your faith.

I think you are applying the art of "false accusation of others" - and if not then you need some evidence for why that statement above is not falsely accusing someone.

 

[ozso]

Amen.

I can GIVE someone a birthday cake but that does not MAKE ME a "birthday cake" - it does not make me THEIR birthday cake.

You are the giver and the source of the birthday cake, just as Jesus is the giver and source of our rest. Putting the Sabbath ahead of Jesus doesn't make much sense.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You are the giver and the source of the birthday cake, just as Jesus is the giver and source of our rest. Putting the Sabbath ahead of Jesus doesn't make much sense.

Jesus is the Creator He gives rest not the creation -rest that He created.

 

[ozso]

When scripture agrees with scripture ... line upon line... sola scriptura tested and proven doctrine.

The verses given often don't go together, except maybe having a same word in them. And they often don't apply to what they're being applied to.

You need a convincing argument at that point.

The evidence is in the clear eisegesis being used. That's what happens when doctrine that's divergent from orthodox doctrine is created. It's inevitable.

Then start by dealing with the details - not skimming over them.

You wore out "the details" line a long time ago.

It says to keep the Sabbath day holy Exodus 20:8 also makes that same case in Ex 20:11
and the Sabbath is a holy convocation -holy gathering/assembly Lev 23:3.
The day to honor God Isaiah 58:13- "The Holy Day of the LORD" in Is 58


is our worship worthy of a day God sanctified, blessed and made holy or a day to do work and labors? Exodus 20:9

Which is not what we see happening in the case above.

Why not actually address the points being made from the texts above?

only according to Jewish tradition no scripture says that if you pick a berry and eat it while walking on Sabbath you have sinned - and we all know it.

The precedent was established when God told Moses to have a man stoned to death for gathering sticks. Gathering grain is the same kind of labor. It's an actual occupation. Under God-made Sabbath Law you're not supposed to do any kind of chore or labor whatsoever on the Sabbath that can wait until the next day. My guess is most Christians who go on about obeying the Sabbath Law only partially obey it, because they think little labors are okay. Which is probably what the stick gatherer God had stoned to death thought (Numbers 15:32-36).

You are equivocating between two very different things. Your argument above is like saying that if someone dares to pick a berry and eat it while walking it is the same as cooking a 4 course meal.

It's no different than picking up sticks. And we know how God regarded and dealt that.

that is the kind of thinking that man-made traditions of the Jews gave the world.

Not really because it's based on God, not man (Numbers 15:32-36).

"Mandatory" as in "do not take God's name in vain" ?? ONE of the TEN where "He spoke these TEN commandments... and added no more" Deut 5:22

"Mandatory" as in "sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4

Is that what you mean by "mandatory"???

Jesus is not the Lord of taking His name in vain, But He is the sovereign Lord of the Sabbath.

The Bible does a good job of that.

Yes and therefore you should understand that small labors like picking up some sticks violates Sabbath Law.

No NT statements about "do not take God's name in vain" either.

What is your point?

That this is how they delete a commandment?

Once again, the phrase “the Lord of the Sabbath” is found in Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:28, and Luke 6:5. In all three instances Jesus is referring to Himself as the Lord of the Sabbath or, as Mark records it, “The Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath” (Mark 2:28). In these verses, Jesus is proclaiming that He is the One who exercises authority even over the rules and regulations that govern the Sabbath day.

Christ the sovereign Lord of The Sabbath has total authority over the Sabbath Law, therefore God Jesus is not rebelling against Himself or breaking His own commandment by exercising His sovereign supreme authority as Lord of the Sabbath over the Sabbath.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Amen.

I can GIVE someone a birthday cake but that does not MAKE ME a "birthday cake" - it does not make me THEIR birthday cake.






???

It’s really no more difficult to understand than “I am the Way the Truth and the Light” or “I am the Door”. I’m confident you understand those metaphors.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, so sad it’s a popular teaching that Jesus sinned or edited the definition of sin to accommodate Him breaking His own Sabbath commandment.

Is Jesus obligated to keep the law and if He decided not to, would that actually be considered a transgression against God?

 

[BNR32FAN]

John says -

Jesus said "Which one of you convicts Me of sin?" John 8:48 -- arguing that He was sinless, not a law breaker​

John declares "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4​

"SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 AND in Rom 3:19-20.
John tells us that the Jews were accusing Christ of SIN -- rebellion against the WORD of God.

You can side with the accusers of Christ if you wish - you do have free will in that regard.

But the Bible says

"tempted in all points as we are yet WITHOUT SIN" Heb 4:15
"through the LAW comes the knowledge of what sin is" Rom 3:19-20

If Jesus decided not to obey the law how would that be considered a transgression against God?

 

[BNR32FAN]

John says -

Jesus said "Which one of you convicts Me of sin?" John 8:48 -- arguing that He was sinless, not a law breaker​

John declares "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4​

"SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 AND in Rom 3:19-20.
John tells us that the Jews were accusing Christ of SIN -- rebellion against the WORD of God.

You can side with the accusers of Christ if you wish - you do have free will in that regard.

But the Bible says

"tempted in all points as we are yet WITHOUT SIN" Heb 4:15
"through the LAW comes the knowledge of what sin is" Rom 3:19-20

More specifically sin is transgression against God, not necessarily the law. The law states thou shalt not commit murder yet God is able to kill anyone He want’s because all have sinned and none are innocent but man is not allowed to kill anyone he pleases based on those same circumstances.

 

[ozso]

Is Jesus obligated to keep the law and if He decided not to, would that actually be considered a transgression against God?

What's notable is Jesus didn't call himself the Lord of any of the other commandments. Sabbatarians are forced to come up with an alternative interpretation of Mark 2:27-8, otherwise sabbatarianism falls apart.

 

[ozso]

More specifically sin is transgression against God, not necessarily the law. The law states thou shalt not commit murder yet God is able to kill anyone He want’s because all have sinned and none are innocent but man is not allowed to kill anyone he pleases based on those same circumstances.

Very good point.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Is Jesus obligated to keep the law and if He decided not to, would that actually be considered a transgression against God?

This would go against the very character of God. It would also make Jesus a hypocrite and goes against all of His teachings. Matthew 5:18 Luke 16:17 Jesus didn't just come here to save us from sins, He showed us how to live. 1 John 2:6

Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

If Jesus lowered the bar to make it convenient from Him and His disciples, He wouldn't be Jesus. He obeyed His Father John 15:10 and came to do His will John 6:38 so no editing of His commandments Deut 4:2. Jesus never sinned; it was an accusation that was recorded in the scripture. It's not a sin to eat on the Sabbath and those who teach Jesus broke the Sabbath like the accusation of the Pharisees, is really crucifying Him all over again.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

More specifically sin is transgression against God, not necessarily the law. The law states thou shalt not commit murder yet God is able to kill anyone He want’s because all have sinned and none are innocent but man is not allowed to kill anyone he pleases based on those same circumstances.

I hope you're not comparing humans to God. God warned us the wages of sin is death, He doesn't kill people because He enjoys it, it’s the choices people make. He gave up His only son so we can live and honestly, I am sadden to see posts like this or that Jesus broke the Sabbath. It is God's will that everyone lives, but He gives us free will because He is a God of love and His judgement is a judgement of love. Not everyone is going to be happy in heaven and unless one has a glorified body one would not be able to stand in His presence- His judgement is because of justice, mercy and love.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

What's notable is Jesus didn't call himself the Lord of any of the other commandments.

Thats right, He never stated any other day was His holy day except for the seventh day Sabbath Exodus 20:10, Isaiah 58:13 Genesis 2:1-3 The only day He made holy, the only day He blessed and the only day He sanctified for holy use. Genesis 2:1-3 Exodus 20:8-11 The only day He rested from His works, the only day He commanded us to rest from our works and keep holy because we are made in His image to follow Him, not do our own thing. The Sabbath is never called the Sabbath of the Jews- God claimed it as His own- My Holy Day Isaiah 58:13 that Jesus is Lord of meaning it is the true Lords day, that Jesus said was made for man. Mark 2:27-28 If anyone knows how to keep the Sabbath, it would be Jesus, which He kept His entire life if one is going to believe the very Words spoken by Jesus and the testimony of His apostles.

tempted in all points as we are yet WITHOUT SIN" Heb 4:15
“Who committed no sin,1 Peter 2:22
"Which one of you convicts Me of sin?" John 8:48
"just as I have kept My Father’s commandments" and abide in His love. John 15:10
"SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
"through the LAW comes the knowledge of what sin is" Rom 3:19-20

 

[ozso]

Thats right, He never stated any other day was His holy day except for the seventh day Sabbath Exodus 20:10, Isaiah 58:13 Genesis 2:1-3 The only day He made holy, the only day He blessed and the only day He sanctified for holy use. Genesis 2:1-3 Exodus 20:8-11 The only day He rested from His works, the only day He commanded us to rest from our works and keep holy because we are made in His image to follow Him, not do our own thing. The Sabbath is never called the Sabbath of the Jews- God claimed it as His own- My Holy Day Isaiah 58:13 that Jesus is Lord of meaning it is the true Lords day, that Jesus said was made for man. Mark 2:27-28 If anyone knows how to keep the Sabbath, it would be Jesus, which He kept His entire life if one is going to believe the very Words spoken by Jesus and the testimony of His apostles.


tempted in all points as we are yet WITHOUT SIN" Heb 4:15
“Who committed no sin,1 Peter 2:22
"Which one of you convicts Me of sin?" John 8:48
"just as I have kept My Father’s commandments" and abide in His love. John 15:10
"SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
"through the LAW comes the knowledge of what sin is" Rom 3:19-20

None of that applies though if Jesus has the authority to change sabbath law. So the question is, does Jesus have all authority over everything or not?

 

[ozso]

I hope you're not comparing humans to God. God warned us the wages of sin is death, He doesn't kill people because He enjoys it, it’s the choices people make. He gave up His only son so we can live and honestly, I am sadden to see posts like this or that Jesus broke the Sabbath. It is God's will that everyone lives, but He gives us free will because He is a God of love and His judgement is a judgement of love. Not everyone is going to be happy in heaven and unless one has a glorified body one would not be able to stand in His presence- His judgement is because of justice, mercy and love.

He's saying that Jesus has the supreme authority over everything that the human beings He created don't have.

 

[BobRyan]

You are the giver and the source of the birthday cake, just as Jesus is the giver and source of our rest.

Amen to that.

Putting the Sabbath ahead of Jesus doesn't make much sense.

No indeed it does not - just as you say.

And no need to do such a thing - when affirming the texts we have been quoting.