Thunder Lauriston lecture on "Why Sunday worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast"

[BNR32FAN]

glad to hear it.

ok but I think we all agree that Catholics and Orthodox Christians (over 1 billion of them) do not teach OSAS

which is as it should be.

Yes but I’m neither Catholic nor Orthodox. I agree with some of their doctrines but not all of them. In America the majority of Christians are protestant or reformed denominations.

 

[BNR32FAN]

and to gather for holy convocation Lev 23:3

The Word of God calls the Sabbath "a day of holy convocation" Lev 23:3
The Word of God says "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23
The Word of God says that "Every Sabbath" Paul was at worship , preaching the Gospel to both gentiles and Jews Acts 18:4
The Word of God says that gentiles ask for "more gospel preaching to be given on the NEXT Sabbath" Acts 13

You’re altering every one of those verses. Holy convocation doesn’t mean worship. Yes we will worship everyday in heaven not only on the sabbath. And Acts 13 doesn’t say that Paul went there to worship, he went there to preach. What better time to preach the gospel to those who believe in God than on a day where they would gather in the synagogues?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You’re altering every one of those verses. Holy convocation doesn’t mean worship. Yes we will worship everyday in heaven not only on the sabbath. And Acts 13 doesn’t say that Paul went there to worship, he went there to preach. What better time to preach the gospel to those who believe in God than on a day where they would gather in the synagogues?

What is the difference between honoring God on His holy and blessed day and worship? Is reading God's Word on the Sabbath not a form of worship? Is preaching God's Word on the Sabbath not a form of worship? Is gathering in a place of worship on the Sabbath with other Christians, not a form of worship? Is prayer on the Sabbath not a form of worship? You seem to be slicing hairs here.

Isaiah 66:23- says coming before the Lord for worship from one Sabbath to another-and does not say every day the saints will be coming before the Lord for worship- maybe that will happen, but we can only go by what the Text says and the Lord used Sabbath here by His design, thus saith the Lord. Since you are concerned about what the scripture is saying- do you have a text that says the first day is the day God set aside for worship? Where is the text that says the first day is holy or blessed or sanctified? Where does the text say the first day is set aside as the day to honor God? Where is the commandment to keep the first day holy and to do work and labors on the other days? A day of worship in heaven and the new earth?

 

[BNR32FAN]

The word everyday is not included in Isaiah 66:23. This would be mean the saved would be gathering before the Lord 24/7 for worship when scripture tells us the saints will be building homes and tending to vineyards, so this interpretation is another way to sadly explain another Sabbath verse away, instead of accepting it for what it really says.

And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

I go to church from one Sabbath to another, I do not go to church daily. Just like now, not every day is the Sabbath, no work 24/7 would be impossible and God's will for us on earth is not different for us in heaven.

That's good, I was only mentioning that because you said the majority of people don't keep the Sabbath, like that is who we follow - over God's Word that says the Sabbath is one of God's commandments that He wrote and He spoke and is in His heavenly Temple Revelation 11:19 , the day God set aside for holy use and blessed. God deemed all days except the Sabbath as working days. Exodus 20:8-11

The commandment is to keep the Sabbath day holy Exodus 20:8 do you not think our worship to God is holy on the day He sanctified and blessed for holy use? Do you think the day set aside to honor God Isaiah 58:13 is different than worship?

The words from and to indicate the period of worship. If I say we’re going to worship from 7am to 11am does that mean we’re going to worship only at 7am and again at 11am or does that mean we’re going to worship continuously from 7am until 11am?

 

[BNR32FAN]

The word everyday is not included in Isaiah 66:23. This would be mean the saved would be gathering before the Lord 24/7 for worship when scripture tells us the saints will be building homes and tending to vineyards, so this interpretation is another way to sadly explain another Sabbath verse away, instead of accepting it for what it really says.

And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

I go to church from one Sabbath to another, I do not go to church daily. Just like now, not every day is the Sabbath, no work 24/7 would be impossible and God's will for us on earth is not different for us in heaven.

That's good, I was only mentioning that because you said the majority of people don't keep the Sabbath, like that is who we follow - over God's Word that says the Sabbath is one of God's commandments that He wrote and He spoke and is in His heavenly Temple Revelation 11:19 , the day God set aside for holy use and blessed. God deemed all days except the Sabbath as working days. Exodus 20:8-11

The commandment is to keep the Sabbath day holy Exodus 20:8 do you not think our worship to God is holy on the day He sanctified and blessed for holy use? Do you think the day set aside to honor God Isaiah 58:13 is different than worship?

Holy means set apart, not a normal regular work day.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Holy means set apart, not a normal regular work day.

Exactly- which God only deemed the seventh day Sabbath to keep holy. Exodus 20:8 worthy of worship and honoring God by doing His ways, not our ways Isaiah 58:13

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The words from and to indicate the period of worship. If I say we’re going to worship from 7am to 11am does that mean we’re going to worship only at 7am and again at 11am or does that mean we’re going to worship continuously from 7am until 11am?

It says from one Sabbath to another- I go to church from one Sabbath to another, but not every day. If the Lord intended this scripture to say from one day to another, I think He would have stated so. The Sabbath is God's holy day in His own Words- Isaiah 58:13, Exodus 20:10 God's will is the same in heaven as it is on this earth. The only day God set aside in heaven and this earth is the seventh day Sabbath Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13, Isaiah 66:22-23

 

[ozso]

It says on the Sabbath (from one Sabbath to another) not from one day to another- the saints will be coming before the Lord for worship. Isaiah 66:22-23 This corelates perfectly with the Sabbath commandment that God said would be a perpetual covenant and has never been abrogated in scripture.

No, it's one week to another. A week was reckoned as from sabbath day to sabbath day. From one week to another, and from one month to another as reckoned by a full cycle of the moon.

We should worship God daily, but that does not mean every day is the Sabbath where 24/7 we spend the entire day in communion and fellowship with God. The Sabbath is much more than an hour of worship, this commandment deals with our time and God wants to spend holy time with His children on the day He designated, not the day assigned to Him by man that God said to work and do labors.

I spend every day throughout the day in fellowship and communion with God. I talk to him and praise him and thank him on a regular daily basis. That's what you do with someone you're in love with and I'm in love with the Lord. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. To me that's not as much a commandment as a result of knowing God.

It says to keep the Sabbath day holy Exodus 20:8 To do all of our labors in six days Exodus 20:9- is your worship to God better suited to be on the day God sanctified for holy use and blessed, or the day He said to do work and labors.

God said to keep it holy by resting as God rested on the seventh day.

God included everyone....

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

No, he wrote that for his chosen people, a people set apart from all others. Exodus 32:29, Leviticus 20:24 etc.

Gentiles are included....God wants to bless everyone...

Isaiah 56:6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant

Gentiles joining themselves to the Lord in that time meant becoming a proselyte Hebrew/Jew.

Hense- the Sabbath was made for man Mark 2:27

23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.” Mark 2:2327

The way to make Mark 2:27 fit the way you're using it, is to cut the verse in half and leave out the context of the entire passage.

The Sabbath is God's holy day, not the holy day of the Jews Isaiah 58:13 and we are made in the image of God to follow Him, not to do our own thing which was the very first sin.

That was addressed to the Hebrews/Jews of the Old Covenant.

Name one verse where Jesus repeated a commandment or passage about the keeping Sabbath or gave a commandment to keep the Sabbath.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No, it's one week to another.

On the Sabbath, thus saith the Lord Isaiah 66:22-23

A week was reckoned as from sabbath day to sabbath day. From one week to another, and from one month to another as reckoned by a full cycle of the moon.

There was no names for months in those days and months were known by the moon and New Moon is New Month, so from month to month and from week to week on the Sabbath, the saints will gather before the Lord for worship Isaiah 66:22-23.

I spend every day in fellowship and communion with God.

So do I

I talk to him and praise him and think him on a regular daily basis.

Me too- praise God.

That's what you do with someone you're in love with and I'm in love with the Lord.

Agreed, but if you love God, you also keep His commandments 1 John 5:3, John 14:15 Exodus 20:6

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. To me that's not as much a commandment as a result of knowing God.

That is obeying God with everything He asks and can be summarized by the Ten. 1 John 5:2-3 God knows us through our obedience to Him 1 John 2:3-4 and the Sabbath is about spending time with God for a full day. The appointed time God set aside- sanctified for holy use

God said to keep it holy by resting as God rested on the seventh day.

God said to rest from our works so we can keep the Sabbath day holy. Exodus 20:8-11

No, he wrote that for his chosen people, a people set apart from all others. Exodus 32:29, Leviticus 20:24 etc.

True, His people, which are neither Jew or Gentiles Gal 3:26-28 but those with faith and the Sabbath is a sign between God and His people Eze 20:12, Eze 20:20 that we worship the one True God who made the heavens and earth, the same God of Judgement Revelation 14:7 When one has faith in God you uphold the law Romans 3:31 Revelation 14:12

Gentiles joining themselves to the Lord in that time meant becoming a proselyte Hebrew/Jew.

We are called to be spiritual Jews.

23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.” Mark 2:2327

The way to make Mark 2:27 fit the way you're using it, is to cut the verse in half and leave out the context of the entire passage.

That was addressed to the Hebrews/Jews of the Old Covenant.

Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees who were adding their rules to God's holy Sabbath. There is nothing wrong with eating on the Sabbath and Jesus was correcting them - the Sabbath was made for man and the word here is human-beings, same word used in man shall not live on bread alone but by every word- not just for the Hebrews.

Name one verse where Jesus repeated a commandment or passage about the keeping Sabbath or gave a commandment to keep the Sabbath.

Jesus led by example and kept the commandments and told us to as well including the Sabbath John 15:10, Matthew 15:3-9 Luke 4:16 John 14:15 and Hebrews reminds us that Sabbath-keeping remains for the people of God Hebrews 4:9 NIV and the Greek word here literally translates into keeping the Sabbath. I would be more concerned where in scripture does it say the Sabbath commandment has been abrogated and we can forget the only commandment God said Remember and is holy and blessed. The Sabbath is a commandment of God, every time you see His Commandments or My commandments it includes the Sabbath commandment Exodus 20:6 Exodus 32:16 which is a constant theme throughout the entire bible up until Jesus Second Coming Revelation 22:14

 

[BNR32FAN]

The word worship isn't in Exodus 20:8-11. God commanded the Hebrews to rest on the Sabbath in that passage.

Or anywhere in the scriptures for that matter which is why they can’t produce one single verse where God commanded anyone to worship on the sabbath. There are verses that say that people did worship on the sabbath but there are verses that say Jesus made water into wine at a wedding, that doesn’t imply that we’re commanded to make wine out of water.

 

[ozso]

On the Sabbath, thus saith the Lord Isaiah 66:22-23

There was no names for months in those days and months were known by the moon and New Moon is New Month, so from month to month and from week to week on the Sabbath, the saints will gather before the Lord for worship Isaiah 66:22-23.

So do I

Me too- praise God.

Agreed, but if you love God, you also keep His commandments 1 John 5:3, John 14:15 Exodus 20:6

That is obeying God with everything He asks and can be summarized by the Ten. 1 John 5:2-3 God knows us through our obedience to Him 1 John 2:3-4 and the Sabbath is about spending time with God for a full day. The appointed time God set aside- sanctified for holy use

God said to rest from our works so we can keep the Sabbath day holy. Exodus 20:8-11

But it doesn't say anything about worship as in worshiping in a church.

True, His people, which are neither Jew or Gentiles Gal 3:26-28 but those with faith and the Sabbath is a sign between God and His people Eze 20:12, Eze 20:20 that we worship the one True God who made the heavens and earth, the same God of Judgement Revelation 14:7 When one has faith in God you uphold the law Romans 3:31 Revelation 14:12

You're cobbling verses together to make the Bible say what you want it to say.

We are called to be spiritual Jews.

Where?

Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees who were adding their rules to God's holy Sabbath. There is nothing wrong with eating on the Sabbath and Jesus was correcting them -

No they were saying he and his apostles were breaking the Sabbath by gathering grain. Which they were. Gathering grain on the sabbath was the same as gathering sticks on the sabbath Numbers 15:32-36.

the Sabbath was made for man and the word here is human-beings, same word used in man shall not live on bread alone but by every word- not just for the Hebrews.

That's not in context with the passage.

Jesus led by example and kept the commandments and told us to as well including the Sabbath John 15:10, Matthew 15:3-9 Luke 4:16 John 14:15 and Hebrews reminds us that Sabbath-keeping remains for the people of God Hebrews 4:9 NIV and the Greek word here literally translates into keeping the Sabbath. I would be more concerned where in scripture does it say the Sabbath commandment has been abrogated and we can forget the only commandment God said Remember and is holy and blessed. The Sabbath is a commandment of God, every time you see His Commandments or My commandments it includes the Sabbath commandment Exodus 20:6 Exodus 32:16 which is a constant theme throughout the entire bible up until Jesus Second Coming Revelation 22:14

There is not a single verse where Jesus said anything about keeping the sabbath. Nor is there a single verse in the entire New Testament that says Christians are to keep the sabbath.

The best you can do is cobble verses together and claim that they say what you want them to say.

 

[ozso]

Or anywhere in the scriptures for that matter which is why they can’t produce one single verse where God commanded anyone to worship on the sabbath. There are verses that say that people did worship on the sabbath but there are verses that say Jesus made water into wine at a wedding, that doesn’t imply that we’re commanded to make wine out of water.

They use Leviticus 23:3 as a proof text for the sabbath being a day of worship with a congregation in a church. It's all about going to church on Saturday. That was the foundation Ellen White built SDA on. No matter how long the debate gets and how many verses are quoted and so on, going to church on Saturday is what it boils down to. That's what this thread is about. Going to church on Saturday instead of Sunday.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

But it doesn't say anything about worship as in worshiping in a church.

It says to keep the Sabbath day holy Exodus 20:8 and the Sabbath is a holy convocation -holy gathering/assembly Lev 23:3. The day to honor God Isaiah 58:13- is our worship worthy of a day God sanctified, blessed and made holy or a day to do work and labors? Exodus 20:9

You're cobbling verses together to make the Bible say what you want it to say.

Not really, all of God's Word is for learning and correcting 2 Tim 3:16

No they were saying he and his apostles were breaking the Sabbath by gathering grain. Which they were. Gathering grain on the sabbath was the same as gathering sticks on the sabbath Numbers 15:32-36.

Eating is not the same as harvesting. Deuteronomy 23:25 The disciples did not break the Sabbath and either did Jesus but its sad people would try to make this case over just obeying one of God's commandments

There is not a single verse where Jesus said anything about keeping the sabbath. Nor is there a single verse in the entire New Testament that says Christians are to keep the sabbath.

Unless one deems themselves not a people of God. Hebrews 4:9 NIV. Jesus kept the Sabbath commandment and all the commandments His entire life and is our example to follow. 1 John 2:6 and told us to keep His commandments- which of course includes the Sabbath commandment that Jesus and the apostles all kept.

The best you can do is cobble verses together and claim that they say what you want them to say.

Honestly, I just see your words against the written and spoken Word of God who personally wrote and spoke the Sabbath commandment along with the other 9 commandments, kept in the Most Holy of His Temple in Heaven Revelation 11:19 which is what the earthy temple was modeled after Hebrews 8:5

I guess we will find out soon enough if we need to keep this commandment God said to Remember. For me, I am going to believe and obey God. I will leave it as agree to disagree and wish you well in seeking Truth to His Word.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Or anywhere in the scriptures for that matter which is why they can’t produce one single verse where God commanded anyone to worship on the sabbath. There are verses that say that people did worship on the sabbath but there are verses that say Jesus made water into wine at a wedding, that doesn’t imply that we’re commanded to make wine out of water.

Where does it say the Sabbath commandment has been abrogated or the law of God written in the heart and mind Hebrews 8:10 Jer 31:33 did not include the Sabbath commandment- that was kept the entire life of Jesus and by the apostles long after the cross. For me, I would rather play it safe especially considering it is one of the Ten Commandments God personally wrote and personally spoke. Spending time with God on His holy and blessed day is not a burden, but the blessing as it is promised Isaiah 58:13-14 so not sure why people fight this so much considering there is no commandment for thou shalt keep holy the first day anywhere in the scripture and not a day God blessed or made holy or sanctified for holy use. If you think worship doesn't belong on a day that is holy and blessed by God but better suited to be on a day God deemed to do works and labors that's ones free will, for me, I prefer to keep holy God's holy things, Ezekiel 22:26 even if there wasn't a commandment but there is still after the cross Luke 23:56 because it has never been abrogated and God's saints keep God's commandments Revelation 14:12 because faith upholds the law Romans 3:31 and should walk a different path, the path Jesus took, which includes keeping the law of God. John 15:10. Anway, we have free will to believe what we want, and I wish you well in seeking Truth to His Word.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Unless one deems themselves not a people of God. Hebrews 4:9 NIV. Jesus kept the Sabbath commandment and all the commandments His entire life and is our example to follow. 1 John 2:6 and told us to keep His commandments- which of course includes the Sabbath commandment that Jesus and the apostles all kept.

Hebrews 3 explains why they were NOT ALLOWED to enter into His rest, because they didn’t believe. Hebrews 3 and 4 are not even talking about the Saturday Sabbath at all. The “rest” that is being referred to in Hebrews 3 & 4 is our rest from toils and tribulations in heaven. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Saturday Sabbath at all.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Where does it say the Sabbath commandment has been abrogated or the law of God written in the heart and mind Hebrews 8:10 Jer 31:33 did not include the Sabbath commandment

Colossians 2:16 and Romans 14. And apparently that law was not written on the heats of every Christian. That much is obvious because there are literally billions of true God serving Christians that don’t feel it is necessary to observe the Sabbath.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Where does it say the Sabbath commandment has been abrogated or the law of God written in the heart and mind Hebrews 8:10 Jer 31:33 did not include the Sabbath commandment- that was kept the entire life of Jesus and by the apostles long after the cross. For me, I would rather play it safe especially considering it is one of the Ten Commandments God personally wrote and personally spoke. Spending time with God on His holy and blessed day is not a burden, but the blessing as it is promised Isaiah 58:13-14 so not sure why people fight this so much considering there is no commandment for thou shalt keep holy the first day anywhere in the scripture and not a day God blessed or made holy or sanctified for holy use. If you think worship doesn't belong on a day that is holy and blessed by God but better suited to be on a day God deemed to do works and labors that's ones free will, for me, I prefer to keep holy God's holy things, Ezekiel 22:26 even if there wasn't a commandment but there is still after the cross Luke 23:56 because it has never been abrogated and God's saints keep God's commandments Revelation 14:12 because faith upholds the law Romans 3:31 and should walk a different path, the path Jesus took, which includes keeping the law of God. John 15:10. Anway, we have free will to believe what we want, and I wish you well in seeking Truth to His Word.

I applaud everyone who keeps the Sabbath, I just don’t agree that it is necessary for salvation and that we are free to honor God on any day, not just a specific day.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I

Hebrews 3 explains why they were NOT ALLOWED to enter into His rest, because they didn’t believe. Hebrews 3 and 4 are not even talking about the Saturday Sabbath at all. The “rest” that is being referred to in Hebrews 3 & 4 is our rest from toils and tribulations in heaven. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Saturday Sabbath at all.

We lets quote the scripture.....

Hebrews 3:15 while it is said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

Is someone in rebellion to God obeying what He asks or disobeying?

Hebrews 4 helps answer this question....

Hebrews 4:6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience

Belief and obedience is used interchangeably in this passage. Do you really believe we can believe in someone but not have enough belief to do what they ask? That doesn't sound like real belief and Jesus addresses this in Matthew 7:21-23

In Christ's rest there is no rebellion. One is obeying everything God asks, which of course includes the Sabbath commandment, which is why there is a plea- today if you hear His voice do not harden your heart in rebellion. We are told the Sabbath rest (keeping) remains for the people of God. Hebrews 4:9 NIV

Hebrews 4:9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God

Rest here is sabbatismos which literally means keeping of the Sabbath. So this verse says there remains a keeping of the Sabbath for the people of God.

σαββατισμὸς (sabbatismos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 4520: A keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I applaud everyone who keeps the Sabbath, I just don’t agree that it is necessary for salvation and that we are free to honor God on any day, not just a specific day.

It's no different than worshipping other gods, bowing to idols, coveting or lying- you break one you break them all James 2:10-12. No law keeping is for salvation- we are saved by the blood of Jesus through our faith. Those who have faith walk a different path than those who don't because Jesus changes us from the inside out and one wants to keep the commandments of God because they love God and have faith in what He asks.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Colossians 2:16 and Romans 14. And apparently that law was not written on the heats of every Christian. That much is obvious because there are literally billions of true God serving Christians that don’t feel it is necessary to observe the Sabbath.

There's lots of harden hearts which is why the Holy Spirit pleas with us- Today if you hear His voice- do not harden your heart in rebellion. Hebrews 3:15, Psalms 95:7-8 do not follow the same path of disobedience as the Israelites in the wilderness Hebrews 4:6 Hebrews 4:11 who profaned God's Sabbath Eze 20:13, Eze 20:21, If one were to look at the weighted evidence on the Sabbath in the entire bible, there is no way one could come to the conclusion that we can profane God's holy Sabbath day. Do you really think we are not being tested today, just like they were in the wilderness?

We already went through Col 2:14-16 KJV, Romans 14 and sad one wants to continue using these bad arguments that have nothing to do with the seventh day Sabbath commandment.

I am not the one we need to convince why one doesn't keep the Sabbath commandment. Jesus said not to break the least of the commandments Matthew 5:19, I don't think the commandment that God said is holy and blessed and asked us to Remember would be considered the least of the commandments, but we are to keep the least.