Thunder Lauriston lecture on "Why Sunday worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast"

[ozso]

My impression was that the gentile Christians - and many Jewish ones - generally didn't think of themselves as under the law of Moses. If they had, letters like Corinthians would have been full of answers to questions about how to keep the finer points of the law far away from Jerusalem.

Tell me, you that desire to be under the law...
Galatians 4

I mean today's gentile Christians who believe we're still under the law, namely Seventh-day Adventists. It seems they'll follow the law forbidding eating pork and shellfish etc as unclean, but probably don't follow other laws about food handling and other things that make the food and or the person unclean.

 

[ozso]

The vision was not about food, but about the gospel being preached to the Gentiles as it was clearly explained.... but it also clearly shows foods were not made clean after the cross after ....it is finished, no changes which reconciles with Revelation 18:2 Isaiah 66:17

Acts 10:17 Now while Peter wondered within himself what this vision which he had seen meant, behold, the men who had been sent from Cornelius had made inquiry for Simon’s house, and stood before the gate. 18 And they called and asked whether Simon, whose surname was Peter, was lodging there.

If it was about food, he wouldn't have wondered what the vision meant . . .

19 While Peter thought about the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are seeking you. 20 Arise therefore, go down and go with them, doubting nothing; for I have sent them.”

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also

I understand its not just about eating clean meats, there are many stimulations- do not eat the fat, do not eat the blood and other good health laws to follow....because God knows what's best for us.

Did you really read my post?

Ordinary Christian said:
You mean the foods that God told Peter to eat in Acts 10? Now I know that vision was about entering the house of a gentile. But... along with that would be the foods that Cornelius and other gentiles would be serving. Remember it's not just the animal itself that's clean or unclean, but all the stipulations regarding the preparation, that if not followed make even clean animals unclean. So it seems highly likely Peter was being served and eating unclean animal flesh according to Levitical law - after Peter was told, “Do not call anything unclean that God has made clean.” Acts 10:15

 

[ozso]

It's never a good idea to disobey God regardless of the commandment. God never made the Sabbath as a standalone commandment; it is part of His eternal Ten personally written by the finger of God, kept in the Most Holy of His Temple. Revelation 11:19 under His mercy seat and what we will be judged by. If we break one of these, we break them all. James 2:10-12 scripture says those who do not keep His commandments, there is no truth 1 John 2:4. God just wants to spend time with us on the day He set aside- sanctified for holy use and sad how many people fight this blessing. Isaiah 58:13-14

Of course James 2:10-12 says the Whole Law, which is far more than just the ten commandments. But keeping the Whole Law is not what Christian Sabbatarians do. They only keep part of the Law.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

1.
A. Peter is Given the keys. Matt. 16:19 Very clear Jesus is speaking Only to Peter Here. He will later Give Keys to the other disciples. Matt.18:18 Keys are authority, decision making power. Isa. 22:22 and can be passed down to other people. Making him the Head of the Church and the Official Representative of God on Earth.
B. Peter preaches at Pentecost and a delegation from Rome is there. The Roman delegation takes the gospel back to Rome and plants a church at which Priscilla and Aquila are members. When the Jews riot over "Crestus" and burn down the Jewish section of the city all the Jews are kicked out for about 10 years and that includes Priscila and Aquila. They go to Corinth Paul finds them there and they make their way to Ephesus. There they help Paul establish the church in Ephesus. Then they return to Rome. Paul follows later.

C. Peter makes its way to Rome. Where he preaches a series of sermons that become The book of Mark. He is executed there but before he is executed he and Paul choose a successor Linus.


2. Solomon (Man) is Called the "Son of God" the official Representative of God on earth, In the O.T.
a. Solomon is promised blessing for choosing wisdom over revenge and greed.
b. Solomon is involved in trade (buying & selling) in which he receives 666 (1 Kgs 10.14 / 2 Chr 9.13) talents of Gold in tribute each year.
c. Solomon violated Gods commandments misrepresenting God by making an alliance with the King of Egypt (Worldly Government)
d. Solomon violated Gods commandments misrepresenting God by marrying foreign wives and worshiping God in a wrong way.
e. Solomon violated Gods commandments misrepresenting God by enslaving and abusing God's people
3. Beast Rev 13.18 Identified with 666. The beast is identified with Solomon, Gods Representative.
4. God's Representative is the Church the Holder of the Keys. The Roman Catholic Church.
Did the Roman Catholic Church while in a Church/State Alliance
a. misrepresent God in any way? Yes
b. increase it wealth by slave trade Yes.
c. enslave people? Yes
d. did they change God's law according to Daniel 7? yes they got rid of the command against Idols and they claim to have changed the holiness of the Sabbath to Sunday by Sylvester I at the time of Constantine. NOTE . The claim that the Lord's day is pagan is wrong. The claim that the Lord's Day Replaced the Sabbath is wrong. The Lord's day was an additional festival to the Sabbath worship in the Synagogue. They did both. It is based on Palm Sunday, Easter Sunday and Pentacost Sunday. The Lord's day was created by Paul, Apollos, Prycilia & Aquilla in Ephesus in order stop conflict with the Jews, teach Christ and create a separate identity from the Synagogue so outsiders could tell the difference between Jew and Christian.

5 . Did they Misrepresent God to the people.
a. Yes they command people to not marry as the highest form of dedication to God. Nuns and Priest. The proper representation of God is in relationships is the Mother/Father model the 'Image of God on Earth.
b. They teach God will burn you and torture you forever if you don't accept him, instead of cremation. Malachi 4:3
c. They teach Evolution rather then Creation
d. They teach poverty as a virtue and the highest form of spirituality. Rather then God wanting to prosper us "be Fruitful and Multiply".
e. They teach the prophecy are either in the past or in the future but not on going. Changing the Times (prophecy) Daniel 7

6. When did Sunday usurp the Sabbath? When they became allied with the State at the time of Constantine.
7. When was the Sabbath banned? At the time of the Pagan resurgence by Julian the Apostate. The church is now allied with the government and in order to avoid state persecution of Christians by the pagan state they hid out in the synagogue. That is why the Sabbath was banned. for political reason not spiritual reasons.

So yes Sunday can be the Mark of the Beast if it is associated with a wrong political and theological adjenda. 666 in the OT is only connected to God's People 1 Kgs 10.14 / 2 Chr 9.13, Ezra 2:13. So it can only be God's people.

Let's try this again, is anybody going to respond to this? Or are you just going to ignore it. I fixed the assumptions and showed that you can get to this result without condemning the Christian church as being an apostasy right away.

 

[Leaf473]

I mean today's gentile Christians who believe we're still under the law, namely Seventh-day Adventists. It seems they'll follow the law forbidding eating pork and shellfish etc as unclean, but probably don't follow other laws about food handling and other things that make the food and or the person unclean.

Yes, I believe that's correct

 

[Leaf473]

Of course James 2:10-12 says the Whole Law, which is far more than just the ten commandments. But keeping the Whole Law is not what Christian Sabbatarians do. They only keep part of the Law.

Yes, James says "the whole law". And it's probably the same James who says to Paul in Jerusalem,

"You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law."

 

[Leaf473]

.
A. Peter is Given the keys. Matt. 16:19 Very clear Jesus is speaking Only to Peter Here. He will later Give Keys to the other disciples. Matt.18:18

Keys are authority, decision making power. Isa. 22:22 and can be passed down to other people.

Could it also include forgiving and retaining sins?

John 20
When he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit! 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, they have been forgiven them. If you retain anyone’s sins, they have been retained.”

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Of course James 2:10-12 says the Whole Law, which is far more than just the ten commandments. But keeping the Whole Law is not what Christian Sabbatarians do. They only keep part of the Law.

The law thats being referred to in this context is the Ten Commandments. Thou shalt not murder and thou shalt not commit adultery came from the unit of Ten that God personally spoke and wrote...found here Exodus 20 kept in the Most Holy of God's Temple that is also in heaven Revelation 11:19


James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

God wrote and spoke 8 other commandments that came in this unit of Ten that is God's work Exodus 32:16 all equally as important.

 

[ozso]

The law thats being referred to in this context is the Ten Commandments. Thou shalt not murder and thou shalt not commit adultery came from the unit of Ten that God personally spoke and wrote...found here Exodus 20 kept in the Most Holy of God's Temple that is also in heaven Revelation 11:19


James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

God wrote and spoke 8 other commandments that came in this unit of Ten that is God's work Exodus 32:16 all equally as important.

By that reasoning the whole law and the ten commandments have been cut down to just murder and adultery. But that's obviously not the case. It's just an excuse for only keeping part of the law while disobeying a lot the rest of the law, which means being guilty of breaking all of the law, if under the law. I know that's been explained multiple times already, but it's a huge gaping flaw in sabbitarian theology.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Could it also include forgiving and retaining sins?

John 20
When he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit! 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, they have been forgiven them. If you retain anyone’s sins, they have been retained.”

yes, the issue of Binding and Loosing is about what what the church allow and restricts and what they forgive and what they punish. According to the Catholics own teaching you can bind and loose incorrectly. Well that is the issue here. SDA's are making the claim that the Catholic Church overstepped it's authority, by changing the holiness of Sabbath to Sunday. Then they overstepped their boundries again by banning the Sabbath over the Lord's for political reasons.

 

[ozso]

The law thats being referred to in this context is the Ten Commandments. Thou shalt not murder and thou shalt not commit adultery came from the unit of Ten that God personally spoke and wrote...found here Exodus 20 kept in the Most Holy of God's Temple that is also in heaven Revelation 11:19
James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

God wrote and spoke 8 other commandments that came in this unit of Ten that is God's work Exodus 32:16 all equally as important.

The ten commandments are not the whole law, just like murder and adultery are not the whole ten commandments. Just keeping the ten commandments and part of Leviticus 11, is only keeping part of the law and stumbling in the rest, which means being guilty of breaking all of the law if under the law according to James 2:10

 

[SabbathBlessings]

By that reasoning the whole law and the ten commandments have been cut down to just murder and adultery. But that's obviously not the case. It's just an excuse for only keeping part of the law while disobeying a lot the rest of the law, which means being guilty of breaking all of the law, if under the law. I know that's been explained multiple times already, but it's a huge gaping flaw in sabbitarian theology.

You must be reading something different than what I quoted.

James was making an example out of thou shalt not murder and thou shalt not commit adultery. you break one you break them all which also applies to the other 8 commandments in this unit of Ten. The He who said this also said and wrote other eight commandments that are equally as important. Also, many misunderstand the Ten Commandments almost every law has an umbrella under the Ten. If we were to be keeping the first commandment, we would be doing everything God asks of us.

If we are sinners, we are all under God’s law in need of His grace. You remove the law you remove the need of a Savior, which is what the other spirit wants us to do. 1 John 3:8

We have two choices and the choices we make determines the path we are on….

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Sin is the transgression of God’s law 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 which Jesus came to save us from not in Matthew 1:21

 

[ozso]

You must be reading something different than what I quoted.

James was making an example out of thou shalt not murder and thou shalt not commit adultery. you break one you break them all which also applies to the other 8 commandments in this unit of Ten.

Which further applies to the entire Law.

The He who said this also said and wrote other eight commandments that are equally as important. Also, many misunderstand the Ten Commandments almost every law has an umbrella under the Ten. If we were to be keeping the first commandment, we would be doing everything God asks of us.

Keeping the first commandment includes keeping the Whole Law when under the Law.

If we are sinners, we are all under God’s law in need of His grace. You remove the law you remove the need of a Savior, which is what the other spirit wants us to do. 1 John 3:8

We have two choices and the choices we make determines the path we are on….

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Sin is the transgression of God’s law 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 which Jesus came to save us from not in Matthew 1:21

That's not an exemption from keeping the Whole Law when under the Law.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Which further applies to the entire Law.

Keeping the first commandment includes keeping the Whole Law when under the Law.

That's not an exemption from keeping the Whole Law when under the Law.

The law is a generic term, so I have no idea what you’re referring to. James did not say if you don’t keep circumcision you break one of the Ten Commandments. James is quoting directly from the Ten, you break one you break them all. Paul already made a distinction between these two laws and the conclusion is what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19 so there is a difference in the laws and God made that abundantly clear by the Ten Commandments Exodus 32:16 , the only commandments written personally by God, the commandments we will be judged by, the commandments inside the ark of the covenant which is in God’s heavenly Holy Temple Revelation 11:19 under His mercy seat. Are there other laws that we should keep, yes but as I stated, they all have an umbrella under the Ten Commandments, if keeping the first commandment, we would be keeping/doing everything God asks of us, which is not burdensome 1 John 5:3.

 

[ozso]

The law is a generic term, so I have no idea what you’re referring to.

God's Law written in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

James did not say if you don’t keep circumcision you break one of the Ten Commandments. James is quoting directly from the Ten, you break one you break them all.

The ten is not God's whole Law given in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

Paul already made a distinction between these two laws and the conclusion is what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19 so there is a difference in the laws and God made that abundantly clear by the Ten Commandments Exodus 32:16 , the only commandments written personally by God, the commandments we will be judged by, the commandments inside the ark of the covenant which is in God’s heavenly Holy Temple Revelation 11:19 under His mercy seat. Are there other laws that we should keep, yes but as I stated, they all have an umbrella under the Ten Commandments, if keeping the first commandment, we would be keeping/doing everything God asks of us, which is not burdensome 1 John 5:3.

None of that excludes or exempts keeping the whole entire Law God commanded His people who are under the Law to obey. Neither does 1 John 5:3. and Revelation 11:19 excuse or exempt those who are under the Law from obeying the entire Law. There is no passage in the Bible that says it's permissible for those who are under the Law to only keep part of the Law. Only man-made doctrine makes that claim.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

God's Law written in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

The ten is not God's whole Law given in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

None of that excludes or exempts keeping the whole entire Law God commanded His people who are under the Law to obey. Neither does 1 John 5:3. and Revelation 11:19 excuse or exempt those who are under the Law from obeying the entire Law. There is no passage in the Bible that says it's permissible for those who are under the Law to only keep part of the Law. Only man-made doctrine makes that claim.

We are talking about James and the context of the law He is quoting, the Ten Commandments. James 2:10-12

 

[Leaf473]

yes, the issue of Binding and Loosing is about what what the church allow and restricts and what they forgive and what they punish. According to the Catholics own teaching you can bind and loose incorrectly. Well that is the issue here. SDA's are making the claim that the Catholic Church overstepped it's authority, by changing the holiness of Sabbath to Sunday. Then they overstepped their boundries again by banning the Sabbath over the Lord's for political reasons.

So... Would that mean that the Catholic church has the authority to bind and loose, and forgive and retain sins, but the SDA Church has the authority to say when it (the Catholic Church) has overstepped its authority on that?

 

[Adventist Dissident]

So... Would that mean that the Catholic church has the authority to bind and loose, and forgive and retain sins, but the SDA Church has the authority to say when it (the Catholic Church) has overstepped its authority on that?

That's intentionally manipulative,. This isn't about institutions this is about God's word. God gave authority to the church but if the church uses its authority the wrong way then people don't have to listen to it. That would be the first commandment. Look at the Old testament and the story of the Kings. The kingdom divided over the disobedience and refusal to follow God's word by the king. The King was given authority but he used it the wrong way I created rebellion. That's the same of the Catholic Church. They can historically Trace their Roots back to the apostles but since they have disobeyed the Lord then why should we listen to them on those issues.

 

[Leaf473]

The "whole law" section in James starts with partiality.

If we say that the "whole law" refers only to the Ten Commandments, would it follow that we can show partiality without breaking the 10?

"...but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law..."

 

[Leaf473]

That's intentionally manipulative,. This isn't about institutions this is about God's word. God gave authority to the church but if the church uses its authority the wrong way then people don't have to listen to it. That would be the first commandment. Look at the Old testament and the story of the Kings. The kingdom divided over the disobedience and refusal to follow God's word by the king. The King was given authority but he used it the wrong way I created rebellion. That's the same of the Catholic Church. They can historically Trace their Roots back to the apostles but since they have disobeyed the Lord then why should we listen to them on those issues.

Do you mean that the Catholic Church has the authority of binding and loosing, and forgiving and retaining sins, but each individual has the authority to judge whether that individual has to listen to them, based on the individual's authority to interpret God's word?